Green man?

[Jalking]

I met this fellow in Rome at a side entrance to the Parthenon that originally was a pagan (roman) temple. I think he look a lot like the Green Man.



I am interested in ancient history, but am no expert. Is there anyone that can explain who it is, and if it is Green Man, how he ended up on a Roman temple?

[fulbert-avebury]

While I cannot answer your question, I am glad you shared this with us here. I love seeing elements of this around the world.

Jeffrey

[Dendrias]

Don't nail me to it, Jalking, but that plate doesn't look Roman. The Pantheon (that's what You mean, isn't it?) has been used as a catholic church, so mediaeval things are not alien to it. And, as far as I understand, the green man has been a decoration for churches throughout mediaeval times.

On the other hand, I know of a carving of a furry man thought to be symbolizing rain. I'll look for it. It might be a close relative of the green man - kinda "Rain-Man".

The other day, I "found" a lot of masks, or faces on a brigde dating to, I think, Napoleon's times in Paris. I can present You kind of a shell-man. Have a look at it:

Shellman.JPG

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We'll think about it, won't we?

[green magi]

I WAS THERE!!! AND TOOK THAT SAME PIC!!! i thought the same thing
the green mans face pops up everywhere in rome and so does the sun
thats amazing how 2 people can notice such A tiny thing
alot of the pagon statues were destroyed or you have to go to the vatican to see them lol

[mwyalchen]

Whatever the date of your plaque, there are indeed Roman-period foliate heads, for example, on Roman tombstones from Provence. Ronald Hutto-n sees the medieval "green man" figures as part of a fashion in Christian preaching spreading from France in the 11th/12th century; whatever the truth of that, though, the image itself seems to be rather older. Here is part of Hutton's account:

Even allowing for the destruction of many Irish and English Sheelas since the Middle Ages, as fashion turned against such sexually explicit imagery, they could never have been as common as Green Men, which often constitute the only decoration in medieval churches. The first systematic study of them was published in 1978 by Kathleen Basford, who demonstrated that these portraits are also found in French Romanesque churches, and that a prototype for them exists in masks sprouting vegetation which come from Roman sites in the Rhineland and at Rome itself. She added that the examples of these images in churches were from the beginning more demonic and menacing than those of the ancient Romans. In the thirteenth century the faces became more human, although still usually anguished or evil. But in the late Middle Ages, when (like Wild Men but unlike Sheelas) they were much more abundant than before, they reverted to being devilish again. She concluded that they were surely representations of lost souls or wicked spirits, rather than symbols of spring and of rebirth. It may be relevant that to some medieval Christian authors, leaves were associated with sins of the flesh. (Hutton, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles; my emphasis)

[Jalking]

It sounds like it could be a possibility that the Romans occupying Britain have brought the tale and picture beck to Rome with them. Having a somewhat artificial religion with a mixture of element from Greek, Egyptian, Etruscan (I don't know if it is spelled right ) and various local pagan beliefs it is not unlikely that they incorporated Green Man into it as well.

The early Christian church did the same thing, just think about how the major Christian holy days is placed according to the sun like pagans do it. Taking over Green Man in Rome and somewhat and change the story a bit to fit the purpose.

Only speculation on my part, I have no documentation whatsoever

[DaRC]

The link to the rhineland would also tie into the Celtic / Germanic heartland - however the foliate face is more complex than a simple link to Roman culture. The breadth of foliate faces across Europe and into India suggests a common Proto-Indo-European link. What is interesting is the continuing hold that the Green Man has had over us through the millenia.

Mike Harding has spent plenty of time investigating this and written a book too - his web site covers a lot of info' as well:
http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/

[mwyalchen]

The Wikipedia page also has some good pictures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man

[Dendrias]

I don't find Mike's site very informative; it's quite odd, full of "pagan clichee" and false information; he could have spent some time investigating on different things. His paragraph on the green man on churches has the advantage that he says "may" when it comes to "pagan" images.
Have You noticed, on the wikipedia discussion ... oh, wait, I found a suitable citation:

I also think to much emphasis is placed on the G[reen]M[an]'s archetectural appeal, he was a myth originally and was not created for archetectural use (pardon my spelling). [...] Remember, he developed independant of culture in many parts of the world, that is what makes him an archetype, so perhapse the J[olly]G[reen]G[iant] is just another form of that culturally independant Green Man.

1. Leif talks about a myth, and Mike connects a face in church-architecture with a story. How could they possibly do that without making up such a story? Or, I might better ask You, dear comdruids, do You know of any stories connected to this face? I don't mean stories or myths about Jack in the green, Cernunnos, Vertumnus or others, as I'm not yet convinced these would fit.

2. It's about archetypes. Mike has found foliated heads in Asia. Wikipedia gives the example of a green coloured Osiris. That's a nice idea, isn't it. I think, it's the core of this mask: the archetypical vegetational idea.
When it comes to archetypes, all the guesswork and channeled information on who stole what and when from the celts, might be rendered useless or a mere paper-dove.

Now, in this wikipedia discussion and somewhere else on the internet, people tend to hint at something without showing it. This makes me and , because I, as a "classicist" haven't seen a Roman foliated head, by now. Could You possibly please post me one, as soon as You find one. I know that Jalking seems to have presented one, but the fact that it is found in Rome, doesn't mean to me, that it is from antiquity.

BTW, Jalking, why was the Roman religion "somewhat artificial"?

[mwyalchen]

Now, in this wikipedia discussion and somewhere else on the internet, people tend to hint at something without showing it. This makes me and , because I, as a "classicist" haven't seen a Roman foliated head, by now. Could You possibly please post me one, as soon as You find one.

Since you ask: from a 1st Century Roman cemetery in Neumagen:

Neumagen.jpg

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Bacchus and Silenus are also depicted with leaves as hair; I'm not sure about the provenance of this one, it's a google find, but it's certainly striking: http://www.hitnerwine.com/Ancient%20Rom ... acchus.jpg

Agree with you about Mike Harding's website, by the way; but I am intrigued by his suggestion that Medieval Green Man figures occur mostly in forest areas.

[Dendrias]

Thank You. Although I knew of it, I only had Bacchus as a youngster on my mind.

[Corwen]

My money is on the carving representing Sylvanus, or maybe a dryad.

[green magi]

that building has been around sence pagan rome anyways so it is possable

[Dendrias]

Yes, green magi, it has been. But ...
I have no solid argument, just a feeling that the pantheon-face doesn't "look" Roman (Roman as in ancient Roman), because of the garland and the flowing ribbons - they don't look pagan Roman to me. Now, obviously, I can be wrong.
And: This building has been around through the middle-ages and is, since then, still in use as a catholic church. It's all possible, then, that there are christian thing around and about.

I'll be in Rome in two weeks time, and I'll try to have a look and investigation.

[Jalking]

I looked around a bit for more information on this thing. In the webcam link below you can see the whole doorway from where the picture was taken (you have to turn the view to the left about 45 degrees)

http://www.italyguides.it/us/roma/rome/ancient_roman_empire/roman_temple/christian_church/roman_pantheon/pantheon_pronaos.htm

I don't know what to make of it, but notice above the door something that looks like a pentagram surrounded by leaves, looks pretty druidic to me. I look forward to learn more of this mystery.

[Dendrias]

You mean this one:

pantheon.jpg

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[Jalking]

Yep it is clearly a 5 pointed star inside a leafy circle. I am not able to read Latin and can't read the inscriptions, but maybe there is some help or explanation to get from it if anyone know how to.
I must admit that I didn't see this thing above the door originally, but only noticed it from the website.

[Dendrias]

I can read Latin like my secons foreign language ... well, it has been my second foreign language. But,

that's the ancient language called ... Italian.

I can't read everything on this sign, but what I can read is:
"***** artistica
congregazione
***** ****** al pantheon"
The pantheon has been used as a church throughout the middle-ages - not everything on it has to be ancient. Or pagan.
The pentagram seems to be lacking the upper line. Might look like a freemason-symbol (have You noticed the knob?) within laurels, perhaps.

Do You think a pentagram is druidic? It might be a communist-symbol, as well.

[Jalking]

hehe, I like that you don't take any remarks for granted and punch big holes into my knowledge. Now I have my doubts if the pentagram even is associated with any original paganism (I have to look that up somehow) maybe it is neo-pagan more then anything else and only associated with modern (wiccan) druidry? I don't know and feel that I have shaken a bees-nest not really knowing what is inside.

I stand corrected with the "pentagram" I didn't think of the freemason symbol it might be that. I regret I didn't notice it when I was there and took a picture of it.
Maybe it have something to do with the excavation and restoration of the building.

I know that it is now a church and my original wondering about the green man is because of this. I couldn't imagine a catholic church moving into an old pagan temple without removing any clue of the former "occupants". The freemason sign makes sense I just like to fit the head into the picture.

[DaRC]

The history of the pentagram can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram
I was aware of it's pythagorean connections but not it's earlier Sumerian connection.
The pythagorean connection is interesting because of their possible links with early Celtic peoples and potentially Druids - the Greeks & Phoenicians were known to be trading tin with the Cornish since the Bronze Age. They were also in contact the the Celtic peoples of the La Tene culture and Greece was invaded by Celts ca300 BCE - some of these Celts moved on to settle Galatia in what is now central Turkey.

With Churches built over old temples - sometimes they didn't remove all traces of earlier worship there. I was in a church carved in rocks within the Dordoigne where traces of previous worship led archaeologists to discover the earlier Mithraic temple beneath.

The circle of leaves was an ancient Roman symbol of victory - so I would doubt a Druidic connection in this case.