Discipline and children

[Jake]

I look forward to the day when hitting children is made illegal everywhere as it is already in 25 nations, including most of the EU. Unfortunately, some of us live in jurisdictions which still cling to the archaic legal view that children are to some degree the property of their parents. This is the same principle that once allowed men to hit their wives with relative impunity.

I believe that those who support the right of children to live their lives without violence or threats of violence from adults should refuse even to use the euphemism "spanking" in this context. I think it only perpetuates the culture that allows us to conceive of it as a separate category of behavior that's morally distinct from other forms of physical assault.

And by the way, given the positions of UNESCO, the APA, the AAP, the NASW, the RCP and RCPCH in the UK, and other pediatric and psychological professional associations all over the world, I would be a little surprised by a family therapist who advocated corporal punishment of children.

[Merlyn]

Corporal punishment,

Two ways to see this,
Such a defining word. And of the Authorities on the subject, reports and all, then why is it that parents have spanked their children for all of recorded time, and yet, the children survive just fine? I will definitely agree that this is limited to gentle prodding, not assault. But who defines the difference?
When does a prod become "corporal punishment?" If your child was reaching for a hot burner on the stove, would you smack his hand away? Or would you let him learn the hard way, by gently telling him no as he scalds his hand? If a child needs a bit of parental intervention to be safe, are we all going to be guilty of corporal punishment?

Here is where most seem to feel the difference is, and perhaps some parents are blessed with little angels who never need a spank.
This approach however does not work for all. It certainly is a moral high ground, but isn't very realistic.

Some kids just plain need different things. Would you yell at your child if he was running in front of a bus? Would you blame yourself for being angry?
I see family counseling often take advantage of family income, often just for the sake of it, and even tear a family apart for no better reason then to make money. By the time a guardian at litem is in the mix, grandma footing the bill because of an ill fated divorce, Juvie court trying to sort out the deals and all, the issue of spanking being corporal punishment becomes way over-blown. This especially when the accusing ex is found to be a porn queen or is into bondage or some other sad outcome of the case.

That all aside and to the other view;
There are more positive discipline methods far more effective than spanking. And I agree the skills should be made available to the general public, advocated and easy to access.

[SidheAingeal]

You are defining "spanking a child" by comparison to adult violence.
And in doing so ignoring the obvious difference. Rather than be frustrated by your line of questions and reluctance to answer any, I will leave that obvious difference to speak to and for itself.

It's interesting for me to read that, Merlyn, because in my opinion, spanking and violence are so obviously the same that it should speak for itself.

[SidheAingeal]

I look forward to the day when hitting children is made illegal everywhere as it is already in 25 nations, including most of the EU. Unfortunately, some of us live in jurisdictions which still cling to the archaic legal view that children are to some degree the property of their parents. This is the same principle that once allowed men to hit their wives with relative impunity.

I believe that those who support the right of children to live their lives without violence or threats of violence from adults should refuse even to use the euphemism "spanking" in this context. I think it only perpetuates the culture that allows us to conceive of it as a separate category of behavior that's morally distinct from other forms of physical assault.

And by the way, given the positions of UNESCO, the APA, the AAP, the NASW, the RCP and RCPCH in the UK, and other pediatric and psychological professional associations all over the world, I would be a little surprised by a family therapist who advocated corporal punishment of children.

I agree 100%.

Fortunately, smacking is, for all intents and purposes, illegal in my state and throughout most of Australia. In some states you're still allowed to give your child one open-handed tap on their bum through clothing.

[Merlyn]

spanking and violence are so obviously the same that it should speak for itself.

In a lot of ways it does.
However, taking away the obvious leaves a void.

There must be positive discipline to take it's place. Ways of behavior modification.
Unfortunately drugs is the answer all too often.

This I very strongly see as over prescribed, incompetently diagnosed too often and forced on children who do not need it simply because teachers, parents and such fail to deal with it. Drugging our children is not positive discipline, it is dumbing our most valuable and cherished social treasure, our children. They then learn the answer to their problems is drugs at all too early an age. We can get kids into "Individual Education Programs" Physical and mental therapy, sports, outreach programs, spiritual directions, lots & lots more.
But it does need to be said, some kids do need and react well to drug therapy. I just see too much of it.
I asked many of the parents, in my kids elementary school if their kids had to be on drugs. The answer was alarming. Not only did I find almost half of the boys in particular, were on a behavior modification drug, all were told to do so by the elementary school. Some girls too, but far fewer.
I feel this is a bit much.

I also agree that a parent should not, and some do, use a paddle or strap. Spoons rulers, and manner of things like this normally mean the child is getting abused. (Schools used to do so. Some may still, I don't know for sure, at least in America it has been stopped.) I know I "got the paddle" and lived through it
To me this means the time or ability of the parent may not be enough, (same goes for schools,) some families work both parents just to get by. That leaves too many parents burned out, and with too little time for the positive discipline and constructive family time. That is really tough if a child has nigh functioning autism or ADD.

It is then that parents need to look to many of the social groups you mention, churches, friends and therapy groups and it should not be a question in the parents mind, that they just need some help getting by and how. Schools do offer IEP and it is a far better thing, but you have to qualify. This can be a process. Looking for help can be difficult and is time consuming.


So, what do you do when your kid hides your blackberry, says he has no idea, and when you find it two days later, the buttons are full of jelly?
12345678910...

[SidheAingeal]

spanking and violence are so obviously the same that it should speak for itself.

There must be positive discipline to take it's place. Ways of behavior modification.

This I strongly agree with.

This I very strongly see as over prescribed, incompetently diagnosed too often and forced on children who do not need it simply because teachers, parents and such fail to deal with it. Drugging our children is not positive discipline, it is dumbing our most valuable and cherished social treasure, our children. They then learn the answer to their problems is drugs at all too early an age. We can get kids into "Individual Education Programs" Physical and mental therapy, sports, outreach programs, spiritual directions, lots & lots more.
But it does need to be said, some kids do need and react well to drug therapy. I just see too much of it.
I asked many of the parents, in my kids elementary school if their kids had to be on drugs. The answer was alarming. Not only did I find almost half of the boys in particular, were on a behavior modification drug, all were told to do so by the elementary school. Some girls too, but far fewer.
I feel this is a bit much.

I also agree that a parent should not, and some do, use a paddle or strap. Spoons rulers, and manner of things like this normally mean the child is getting abused. (Schools used to do so. Some may still, I don't know for sure, at least in America it has been stopped.) I know I "got the paddle" and lived through it
To me this means the time or ability of the parent may not be enough, (same goes for schools,) some families work both parents just to get by. That leaves too many parents burned out, and with too little time for the positive discipline and constructive family time. That is really tough if a child has nigh functioning autism or ADD.

It is then that parents need to look to many of the social groups you mention, churches, friends and therapy groups and it should not be a question in the parents mind, that they just need some help getting by and how. Schools do offer IEP and it is a far better thing, but you have to qualify. This can be a process. Looking for help can be difficult and is time consuming.

Well I'm not really sure how drugs came up - I certainly didn't mention them in any of my posts!

For what it's worth, I do not support the overdiagnosis of ADD or the quickness to use drug therapy. All of the other options you've mentioned (IEP/ILPs, physical and mental therapy, sports, outreach programs, spiritual guidance) as well as diet modifications (there is a theory that many kids diagnoses with ADD often have sugar sensitivities that affect their behaviour) often prove very successful and I believe should all be tried before any drug therapy is even considered.

Now, should we return to the original debate about smacking because I think drugs may be a topic in itself!

[Sencha]

I look forward to the day when hitting children is made illegal everywhere as it is already in 25 nations, including most of the EU. Unfortunately, some of us live in jurisdictions which still cling to the archaic legal view that children are to some degree the property of their parents. This is the same principle that once allowed men to hit their wives with relative impunity.

I believe that those who support the right of children to live their lives without violence or threats of violence from adults should refuse even to use the euphemism "spanking" in this context. I think it only perpetuates the culture that allows us to conceive of it as a separate category of behavior that's morally distinct from other forms of physical assault.

And by the way, given the positions of UNESCO, the APA, the AAP, the NASW, the RCP and RCPCH in the UK, and other pediatric and psychological professional associations all over the world, I would be a little surprised by a family therapist who advocated corporal punishment of children.

I wholeheartedly agree.
Some people claim that 'spanking' is different from 'hitting.' How exactly is it different? Can you tell me exactly how many pounds per square inch of force is needed to cross the line from spanking to hitting? Did you know that over 70% of child abuse cases started out as 'spankings'?

As to the claim that childen who were spanked turn out 'fine,' studies show that they are more aggressive, more socially maladjusted, have lower self-esteem, and lower levels of success in life. And if perchance they manage to escape all these problems and 'turn out fine,' they do so IN SPITE of the spanking, not because of it.

Well I'm not really sure how drugs came up - I certainly didn't mention them in any of my posts!

That's a common tactic Merlyn uses...he likes to try to derail threads. He can't seem to stay on-topic.

[Frog]

So... assuming that we are all agreed that a light tap on the bum is the equivelant of a full force smack round the head ... it's all on a scale (which seems to be how I'm reading it) then how do you enforce it? Reactively - i.e. when someone reports that they have witnessed something.. or Pro-actively, where parents can ONLY have permission to have a child provided that they have studied - and passed - a certificate of competence?

Yet another person who's avoided the question. If it's okay to hit children, why isn't it okay for one adult to hit another? Is it because the adults are big enough to fight back, or for some other reason?
Your red herring didn't obscure the fact that everyone on this thread is trying to avoid the question

So I can't be accused of avoiding the irrelevent question: Because there are legal policies in place to establish protocol, alternate solutions that can be put into place. You can't place your child under suspension without pay (as you still need to look after them, unless you are prepared to discharge your ownership of that child to the authorities); you can't "fire" your child.
But, to continue this aspect of the thread.... if a colleague has done well for the team, and the manager pats them on the back.... is that not an assault as well?


Hi Merlin,
You are right about the fact that in Scouting there is no mechanism for parents to check if the leaders are educated in spotting or dealing with young people with behavioural challenges. In my experience, parents are keen to get their young person into Scouting - so assume that we can cope and unfortunately it makes it very hard on the Leaders to turn the child down. Again, based on experience as both a Scout Leader and an ex-District Commissioner, parents are more comfortable providing some assistance to the younger sections, but take a "hands off" support for Scouts and older, using the reasoning that the young people are of teenage years and wouldn't want their parents hanging round (I also think that the parents are a little nervous that they won't have the skills to be a leader).
There is a training module (Module 36 - Special Needs), but it is a Supplementary module to the training.

[Merlyn]

Now, should we return to the original debate about smacking because I think drugs may be a topic in itself!

That's a common tactic Merlyn uses...he likes to try to derail threads. He can't seem to stay on-topic.

Are you so very obsessed with spanking that you think that is the ONLY method of discipline?


That speaks very loudly to me as a serious problem.
Anyone who is so obsessed with spanking as to think it is the ONLY topic associated with discipline and children should really be educated!
I am amazed that this entire thread has been squandered over spanking, repeatedly redirecting the subject back to this.

If you do not recognize drugs as abuse, especially in little children, as a method of discipline, then WAKE UP!
It is the tool of the shrink to get tons of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ out of the system and do little or nothing to help the kids. It is WAY over used and produces suicidal tendencies, never allows the children to learn and grow by finding ways to overcome things like ADD, Sensory integration problems and various forms of autistic dysfunction.

And yes, lots of people have lived and been amazing people even though they got a spank now & then
Frankly since they have stopped it in schools, we see a dangerous rise in violent kids, to the point of needing police stationed at the schools.
Reason why is nothing was put in place of this simple method except DRUGS!

And if a child is a little angel you are so lucky.
But once they hit 12 years old, and they are lashing back because all they had to do was sit in time out, and had absolutely no respect for their parents, never even a harsh word,
get ready to be ripped off by the insurance scammers who think they are so morally correct as to drug your kid.

Thousands of children have suddenly died over the years, as a direct result of using psychotropic drugs used for ADD and ADHD.
SIDE EFFECT OF DRUGS USED FOR ADHD

Amphetamine-type drugs such as Ritalin, Adderall and Dexedrine and the Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI), such as Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil and Luvox and the new selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors can cause serious side effects.

These can include suicide, seizures and cardiac problems such as arrhythmias, hypertension, heart failure and even death. These drugs can also cause emotional symptoms such as psychosis, agitation, aggression, hostility, anxiety and hallucinations.

Parents can find complete information about the side-effects of each drug in the drug insert from the pharmacist or in the Physician's Desk Reference.

Thousands of children have died over the years as a direct result of using psychotropic drugs for ADD and ADHD.

RitalinDeath.com was created in memory of children that have died from the use of drugs used to treat ADD and ADHD and the many families that are left behind to suffer with no accountability.

http://www.ritalindeath.com/adhd-drug-deaths.htm

New Warnings Urged for ADHD Drugs
FDA Panel Recommends Warnings of Rare Reports of Aggressive Behavior or Psychotic Symptoms
By Todd Zwillich
WebMD Health NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MDMarch 23, 2006 -- Government advisors urged new warnings and information for parents of children using drugs to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), though they avoided strong safety alerts backed by a separate panel last month.

A committee of mostly pediatric experts urged the FDA to warn doctors and parents about reports linking popular stimulant drugs to aggressive behavior, manic episodes, and psychotic symptoms like hallucinations.

The reports remain rare among the estimated 2 million American children who fill stimulant prescriptions each month. But experts said that events appeared often enough that parents and their doctors should be alerted so that they can stop the drug if such problems arise in their children.

They recommended that warnings be included in medication guides distributed to parents along with children's prescriptions.

"[Parents should] be aware that this could happen, and it may be a justification for stopping the drug," says Robert Nelson, MD, a critical care specialist at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the panel's chairman.

Psychiatric Effects
Some reports of suicidal thoughts or behaviors have cropped up in children and adolescents taking some stimulant medications. Those reports were most common with the ADHD drug Strattera, which is not a stimulant and already carries a "black box" alert warning of potential suicide risk. The committee concluded that further suicide warnings for stimulant drugs, including Ritalin, Concerta, and Adderall XR, are not warranted at this time.

The agency received hundreds of reports of aggressive behavior during the last five years in children taking stimulant drugs. Most of the events were reported as mild, though up to 20% resulted in a significant injury or hospitalization, the agency says. The labels of most stimulant drugs don't warn of a potential for aggressive behavior.

Aggression is a common symptom of ADHD, so some outbursts would still be expected in patients taking medication, researchers say.

But reports in the studies appeared to be significantly more common in children taking active drugs than in those who took placebos, and experts urged the FDA to add new warnings alerting parents and doctors to consider withholding treatment if new aggressive behavior arises with the drug.

"Take the child off of it, see what happens. Those are messages we don't give out enough," says Lauren L. Leslie, MD, a member of the panel and a researcher at the Child and Adolescent Services Research Center in San Diego.

Experts also recommended new labels warning of a possibility of hallucinations and mania amid dozens of reports that such symptoms can arise for the first time in children taking ADHD drugs.

Tom Laughren, MD, head of the FDA's division of psychiatric products, says the committee appeared "unimpressed" by more than 350 reports of suicidal thoughts or behaviors in treated children over the last five years. Up to 20% of middle and high school students already report such thoughts, and it was unclear that drugs other than Strattera led to increased risk, he noted.

But Jacqueline Bessner, of Ishpeming, Mich., told the committee in a tearful statement that she and her husband were never told to be on the lookout for suicidal behavior in their daughter, Leanne. The 15-year-old committed suicide last October 2.5 months after starting treatment with Concerta.

"There was no warning to us that this could have psychiatric behaviors" as side effects, Bessner tells WebMD.

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/2006 ... e-behavior

So the truth is, if a child cannot pay attention, the risk of suicide is OK, no problem, good with the doctors and insurance scammers

From what I am seeing here, the obsession with spanking is a symptom from being spanked, hit or abused. I see this and am concerned.
If the entire subject of discipline and children has nothing more to it then are drugs the answer?

I think not.

[Merlyn]

Hi Frog,

Hi Merlin,
You are right about the fact that in Scouting there is no mechanism for parents to check if the leaders are educated in spotting or dealing with young people with behavioural challenges. In my experience, parents are keen to get their young person into Scouting - so assume that we can cope and unfortunately it makes it very hard on the Leaders to turn the child down. Again, based on experience as both a Scout Leader and an ex-District Commissioner, parents are more comfortable providing some assistance to the younger sections, but take a "hands off" support for Scouts and older, using the reasoning that the young people are of teenage years and wouldn't want their parents hanging round (I also think that the parents are a little nervous that they won't have the skills to be a leader).
There is a training module (Module 36 - Special Needs), but it is a Supplementary module to the training.

Scouting and other programs work with positive discipline, constructive achievement and better ways of working with kids over-all.
Positive discipline is a much more valid and real discussion in the scope of discipline and children. Simply put, of course spanking is bad, so then what? So we have many ways of discipline, far out reaching any need for violence. I bring the drug issue in because once a child is on them, the problems are masked, slummed over with false dumbing of the child.
It is the replacement for spanking, and a poor one most of the time.
Once the child is taken off the drug, out of school, then they have a very good chance of failing in society. They have learned nothing about dealing with their problems and left to face an adult life without ever facing their own issues. So they take spanking away and allow the child to be unchecked, on drugs!

Now.... When I went to school in the 60s and 70s the whole issue was to keep kids OFF drugs, "Just say no" and all of that, so now I have a kid in school and they want to drug him? Yes they tried that, and I stopped them. I made them provide the IEP he heeded, and as a graduate from elementary school he had a college level comprehension lexile.
That's right, COLLEGE level.

[Sencha]

I'll ignore all the red herrings and strawmen in the above post, as they're irrelevant.
The following links just barely skim the surface on the wealth of information and research that continues to demonstrate that spanking does more harm than good. All of the liniks below reference peer-reviewed studies on the subject.
http://www.womensenews.org/story/health ... ally-girls
http://www.stopspanking.com/articles.html
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... gence.html
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/bl ... -get-older

[Merlyn]

I think I need to call you spanky

I'll ignore all the red herrings and strawmen in the above post, as they're irrelevant.

You pull this on lots of threads,
Well guess what. You are seriously wrong. So much so it is getting to be a discipline problem
Come here... I have to spank you!

Now get OVER it already and move on

[Sencha]

You pull this on lots of threads,
Well guess what. You are seriously wrong. So much so it is getting to be a discipline problem
Come here... I have to spank you!

The topic is children and discipline. Stay on topic. If you cannot, then you are not worthy of further attention.

[Merlyn]

I have to spank you!

I did stay on topic!
Really Sencha,
I still doubt you have anything to do with family counceling.
No one with that kind of education would get the angry reaction from people here that you seem to do.

I make light of it, because I see through it is all. Nothing personal

Aside from the obvious diatrbe of spanking being bad, do you have any constructive ways which repalce it?
This seems to be "off topic" to you, and if so I can simply start another thread. But spanking will be off topic

[Snægl]

Ok, so bearing in mind I am a naive, sleep-deprived new parent of 3 weeks....

I found this article most interesting, as it provides an alternative both to spanking and so-called "consequence-based" discipline:

To get away from consequences, rewards and other kinds of "behaviour management" it can be helpful to think in terms of living with your children, rather than controlling them. Unfortunately, many of us find it hard to have faith in our children. We're afraid that if we don't push, coax or coerce them into acceptable behaviour, they'll never learn to be cooperative or responsible. This is probably a message passed on through our own childhood experiences and exacerbated by pressure from other adults. But Liedloff's experience, and that of many parents, shows that exactly the opposite is true. When we stop trying to control and manage our children's behaviour, their innate desire to follow our examples is able to come to the surface.

And another interesting analysis of parent/child dynamics in the Western world when compared with indigenous tribal interactions:

Put simply, when a child is impelled to try to control the behavior of an adult, it is not because the child wants to succeed, but because the child needs to be certain that the adult knows what he or she is doing. Furthermore, the child cannot resist such testing until the adult stands firm and the child can have that certainty. No child would dream of trying to take over the initiative from an adult unless that child receives a clear message that such action is expected — not wanted, but expected! Moreover, once the child feels he has attained control, he becomes confused and frightened and must go to any extreme to compel the adult to take the leadership back where it belongs.

Just some more fodder for the bonfire.

—Snægl (who is off to burp the Bottomless Pit)

[Merlyn]

Thanks Snaegl,
Those are two insightful thoughts.
Indeed if the parents seem not to have confidence, the prodding begins.
When the grandchildren come by, they will wander around and seek to find the boundaries, so to speak.

Confidence is difficult for parents, often. Young parents of course have no experience.
Children are sensitive and pick up on this easily, and often exploit it. Some even want reactions, resorting to all kinds of misbehaving until they get some response, and even insisting they have their way.

Spanking is even something they sometimes drive inexperienced parents to do (there, see I am on topic) and the children will expect and even demand it.
Believe it or not, some do. This perhaps because of the lack of other resource and methods of discipline from the parents. But they want something, something valid, real and effective. Parents may not realize this, but it is a part of the "living with" and the relationship.

If this is not the case, then neglect enters the picture. This of course is another thread completely

Since spanking has been removed from schools;
We see things like this in the news, just today;

a gun went off inside the desk of a third grader in Charlotte, N.C.
It is unclear how the gun went off, but luckily, the bullet missed all 20 students in the classroom and only hit a wall.
Parents rushed to the school not knowing the extent of the situation after they were told, “A serious incident occurred in a University Meadows classroom this afternoon.”
The gun was a .22-caliber handgun "small enough to fit in the palm of your hand," said Sgt. David Schwob.
Police are investigating the boy's father who came to the school in the afternoon. Schwob said investigators were interviewing the boy, his parents and other students in the class.

Mostly because the children walk in fear of other students and gang influence and bullying.
Drugs for behavior disorders obviously do nothing to cure this problem.

Left unchecked, then we have what happened at Virginia Tech.

It is obvious that the $$$$$$$$ chasing insurance solutions of drugging kids fail.

[Jake]

Just some more fodder for the bonfire.

—Snægl (who is off to burp the Bottomless Pit)

Good stuff!

[Jake]

Since spanking has been removed from schools;
We see things like this in the news, just today;

a gun went off inside the desk of a third grader in Charlotte, N.C.
It is unclear how the gun went off, but luckily, the bullet missed all 20 students in the classroom and only hit a wall.
Parents rushed to the school not knowing the extent of the situation after they were told, “A serious incident occurred in a University Meadows classroom this afternoon.”
The gun was a .22-caliber handgun "small enough to fit in the palm of your hand," said Sgt. David Schwob.
Police are investigating the boy's father who came to the school in the afternoon. Schwob said investigators were interviewing the boy, his parents and other students in the class.

The religious fundamentalists blame school violence on the removal of public prayer from schools. They even have graphs to prove it. They're wrong too.

Corporal punishment in schools is illegal in most of the civilized world and yet they don't have students running around blowing one another's heads off like in the US.

The incident cited took place in the state of North Carolina where corporal punishment is still practiced in schools.

It's a pity this thread degenerated into such a childish sideshow. This could have been an interesting conversation.

[Sencha]

Corporal punishment in schools is illegal in most of the civilized world and yet they don't have students running around blowing one another's heads off like in the US.

Exactly. Corporal punishment has been linked to increased aggression. And carrying a handgun to school is most certainly an act of aggression.

[Aurora]

This has been an intereating thread to read, Snægl's post reminded me of a book i read called the Continuum concept by Jean Liedloff (which it turns out the writer of the article has been using in her life and as a base for her article too), Which is very much about changing how one views parents behaviour towards children and makes it a more positive thing on both sides. Basically it says children act out/cry ect.. as a sign that something is not right and that you as the grown up need to find out what it is and help to fix it.

I found it really interesting and have been suprised how well the concepts work when i'm with my niece who responds really well when i use them as opposed to more consequence based beahaviour on my part.