Discipline and children

[Merlyn]

I found it really interesting and have been surprised how well the concepts work when i'm with my niece who responds really well when i use them as opposed to more consequence based behavior on my part

Well yes, Aurora,
What needs to take the place of outdated ideas like spanking in school, or at home is progressive discipline.
Each problem of behavior is a cry-out from the child. Parents and schools both need to partner in this, as I find the cooperation is vital.
Methods, goals, concepts are all positive in helping kids and giving them a "someting great is next" kind of life.

(I am not sure how long some of the posters here are going to beat the drum about spanking. No one is advocating it. I am definitely saying the present system is in serious trouble, with drugs, spanking, neglect, and all.)

The psychologists can make all the acronyms they want, the fact is this problem needs parent attention, school system improvements and much less placebo driven drug solutions which stagnate a child's development, fail the system, and the family.

Innovative and creative thinking is needed, mostly because each child is unique. No "one size fits all solution" like spanking or drugs will work.
To those who doubt my involvement, I am raising my son, now 17, with diagnosed autism.

So for this who have been badgering me over the "spanky" thing.

Get a life!

[Frog]

One interesting point that I'm finding in this thread is that the view of physical discipline is considered as a black/white solution... yet elsewhere within the druidry forums we regularly debate and discuss that there is no black/white solution.

But there are a number of factors that I feel are also to be considered in all this. A parent can not hit a child (so, yay parent right?) but then ignore their child and ostracise them - in other words inflict mental punishment. Is this actually any better? After all, you haven't hit them.

And again, I would like to reiterate that there are no qualifications required to be a parent.

In my experience of dealing with young people, I have dealt with well-behaved children that have received physical discipline and also ones that have not. I have also dealth with boys who have been (frankly) a complete disappointment in their respect for themselves and others in their conduct and behaviour - and similarly, some have been subject to discipline and others have not (in fact they actually play up to the fact that there parents are "soft").

So what do I deduce from that? Each child requires an individual method for instruction and correction. One size does not fit all - but it is very much the responsibility of the parent to ensure that whatever method is used - if it doesn't work then it does not follow that doing the same thing with more vigour will help.

[Merlyn]

So what do I deduce from that? Each child requires an individual method for instruction and correction. One size does not fit all - but it is very much the responsibility of the parent to ensure that whatever method is used - if it doesn't work then it does not follow that doing the same thing with more vigour will help.

Hi Frog,
I the neighborhood elementary school my son went to all of the kids referred to the principal as "superman". They loved him and thought the world of him. He had a Harley-Davidson super-glide, and so we began to talk about riding and such, and then I asked him how on earth he had the respect he did and how he managed to work with so many children so successfully.
His answer; "One at a time".

From the original post of the OP; (once past the rant)

I'm aware that there are parents who don't know their way around their children but that's because they don't come with manuals (both). I think most people try their best and I guess some people think that "smacking never did" them any harm but there are alternatives which are kinder, more compassionate and work just as well, if not better.

If anyone is interested then the books of Alfie Kohn are a good starting point and give food for thought. By deepening our understanding of a child we can deepen our understanding of ourselves and vice versa - to me that is something that druidic training is about.

This this thought, is the way past the obvious failures of present day methods, old way smacking and such. And it IS ON TOPIC.

All the books in the world will not fully prepare you for the unique life your child truly is. They are full of positive ways, methods and the hand in hand life that raising our children really is. But it is up to each unique relationship to find what does or does not work for each child.

Of all of the resources to positive change in discipline, I find the one on one conversations with parents, teachers and our experiences are the best resource.

[Sencha]

One interesting point that I'm finding in this thread is that the view of physical discipline is considered as a black/white solution... yet elsewhere within the druidry forums we regularly debate and discuss that there is no black/white solution.

Are there instances in which rape is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Are there instances in which murder is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Are there instances in which the sexual abuse of children is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Some things are just wrong. There is no gray area to injustice and cruelty.

[Frog]

One interesting point that I'm finding in this thread is that the view of physical discipline is considered as a black/white solution... yet elsewhere within the druidry forums we regularly debate and discuss that there is no black/white solution.

Are there instances in which rape is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Are there instances in which murder is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Are there instances in which the sexual abuse of children is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.
Some things are just wrong. There is no gray area to injustice and cruelty.

This topic is about discipline and children. Please stay on topic. (oops - have I just spotted a Kettle and pot moment? )

[Frog]

Hi Frog,
I the neighborhood elementary school my son went to all of the kids referred to the principal as "superman". They loved him and thought the world of him. He had a Harley-Davidson super-glide, and so we began to talk about riding and such, and then I asked him how on earth he had the respect he did and how he managed to work with so many children so successfully.
His answer; "One at a time".

Hello Merlyn,
I think this is possibly reiterates the last paragraph in the post you referred to - we have to deal with each child one at a time - and that the method that we work/deal with that child has to be tailored to suit.

[troll comment (because I feel the need to share it)] Just waving a bunch of statistical peer-reviewed articles at a child to say "See! These tell me you'd behave like that!" won't necessarily resolve the problem either. [/troll comment]

[Merlyn]

Hi Frog,

"statistical peer-reviewed articles" make nice moral high ground for neglect.
So I throw them in the trash.
I went through the meeting with the poser woman for drugging young elementary children.
Oh yes she was the one who got so many to put children on suicidal drugs, in that school. And oh yes it was all peer reviewed insurance scamming

This entire thread has been in contention from the very first post, and antagonized to death, long before we began trying to converse about real solutions, good answers and practical experience.

But now thanks to Sencha we can expand the discussion to "rape, murder, injustice and sex abuse"
Now there is a lot of fodder for a much wider range of this discussion!

[Dendrias]

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[Aitrus]

You're right, Merlyn. I'll start us off:

Are there instances in which murder is okay? If not, congratulations...your'e guilty of black-and-white thinking.

Yes, there are instances in which murder or, by extension, killing another human being, is condoned. It may not be the preferred outcome, but it is allowed. For example: self defense that results in the death of another, whether that action be taken in defense of your person, family, on behalf of another in imminent danger, or in the defense of your nation, is acceptable under any number of given circumstances. It's a grey thing, and subject to interpretation.

Oh, what...I shouldn't have said that. I need to get back on topic before I get spanked.

[Merlyn]

Video games have a very adverse affect on kids.
Kill Kill Kill, everything in sight!
Blood and guts all over the place.

"peer reviewed" studies and all, the obsession for these games goes right to the kid.
They obsess and obsess, until they are speaking like they are still playing the game and even relating everything to it!

They are airing a TV show, that showed a preacher's son, who never even had a harsh word let alone any need for discipline, just went nuts because the father took the game away.
The kid shot both parents! Took the minivan but got caught just a few blocks away.

[Sencha]

Insisting on staying on-topic is extremely black-and-white thinking.
So I guess Frog isn't a Druid.

[Blaiddwen]

Sencha,
Could you spread more of your vast/endless knowlege this way? I could use some for my garden.

[SidheAingeal]

Hey, Dendrias, could you pass some of that popcorn my way?

[Frog]

Insisting on staying on-topic is extremely black-and-white thinking.
So I guess Frog isn't a Druid.

"Arguing with a fool proves there are two."
- Doris M. Smith

[DJ Droood]

They are airing a TV show, that showed a preacher's son, who never even had a harsh word let alone any need for discipline, just went nuts because the father took the game away.
The kid shot both parents! Took the minivan but got caught just a few blocks away.

hmmmm...son of a "preacher"...Halo 3...which drove the kid insane? My money is on the Unicorn.

Xbox does not turn kids into killers....perhaps little psychos are attracted to killing simulations, but for the vast majority, including my kids, it is just entertainment....sure I wish they would turn it off and go outside when it is sunny, but I'm not afraid they are going to shoot me...perhaps because I don't keep guns in my house! (ok, a brown bess musket, but it is a bugger to load and I only have powder, no ball) So let's recap...A Unicorn Whisperer with guns or a game...what messed that kid up??

[SidheAingeal]

They are airing a TV show, that showed a preacher's son, who never even had a harsh word let alone any need for discipline, just went nuts because the father took the game away.
The kid shot both parents! Took the minivan but got caught just a few blocks away.

hmmmm...son of a "preacher"...Halo 3...which drove the kid insane? My money is on the Unicorn.

Xbox does not turn kids into killers....perhaps little psychos are attracted to killing simulations, but for the vast majority, including my kids, it is just entertainment....sure I wish they would turn it off and go outside when it is sunny, but I'm not afraid they are going to shoot me...perhaps because I don't keep guns in my house! (ok, a brown bess musket, but it is a bugger to load and I only have powder, no ball) So let's recap...A Unicorn Whisperer with guns or a game...what messed that kid up??

This is my take. Normal, well-adjusted kids, do not see violence of a video game and go out and kill people. They just don't. If they saw the level of violence that appears in video games in real life, they would be as upset as you or I would (presumably) be.

For a game to inspire real life violence (or murder) the kid in question must already have something going on in their head. It may not be noticeable on the outside, but it'd be pretty rare for a completely healthy kid to kill his parents over a video game. The kid in question undoubtedly had other problems, problems he may not have spoken about. Isn't it the quiet ones you have to watch? The quiet ones are often the ones contemplating angry, depressed thoughts just waiting for a trigger to set off the explode button.

I agree with DJ on this one.

[Sencha]

For a game to inspire real life violence (or murder) the kid in question must already have something going on in their head. It may not be noticeable on the outside, but it'd be pretty rare for a completely healthy kid to kill his parents over a video game. The kid in question undoubtedly had other problems, problems he may not have spoken about. Isn't it the quiet ones you have to watch? The quiet ones are often the ones contemplating angry, depressed thoughts just waiting for a trigger to set off the explode button.

Yes, and I would add to that, that in families where abuse is prevalent, the abusers are often quite good at concealing it from outsiders.
Think about it...if you were on a reality tv show, would you abuse your children in front of the camera?

[Merlyn]

I also agree, the game itself can't be totally blamed, it is only a catalyst to the issue.
The murder example of Halo3 may have been aggravated by any number of other problems.

However the situation comes about, I have noticed that obsessive gaming can be a real problem.
It takes away a lot of time from the child's 'normal' life.

[Sencha]

However the situation comes about, I have noticed that obsessive gaming can be a real problem.
It takes away a lot of time from the child's 'normal' life.

The topic is 'Discipline and Children.' Stay on topic.

[SidheAingeal]

I also agree, the game itself can't be totally blamed, it is only a catalyst to the issue.
The murder example of Halo3 may have been aggravated by any number of other problems.

However the situation comes about, I have noticed that obsessive gaming can be a real problem.
It takes away a lot of time from the child's 'normal' life.

I agree. Gaming addiction can seriously affect the "normal" life of a young person, not to mention the effects it may have on their developing mind. Sure, in most cases it won't lead to murder, but it does lead to poorer school performance, less time outside, less face to face interaction - all worrying.

Internet and mobile phone usage is also a biggie.

How can parents effectively monitor their kids' usage of these things? How can we ensure that we set appropriate boundaries to keep them out of trouble and unaddicted?

I do wonder at the world my son will grow up in. I didn't get the internet until I was 16, he had it before he was born. And I didn't get a mobile until I was 18 but I can envision parents texting their kids to remind the to clean their rooms!