Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

[DJ Droood]

So there you go Davin....even on a druid board there are plenty of people willing to come to the defence of poor old persecuted BP. Maybe those whiners on the Lousiana and Florida coasts shoud just stfu...the oil industry is doing its best.


So, who is you favourite Twilight character? Do you think vampires are real?

[Merlyn]

Well,
Let's get it right now, this isn't the worst case of oil spill ever.
In fact it is far from it. Sad but true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_oil_spill
http://www.kuwait-oilspill.com/
http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5 ... streba.htm

And so on....

I blame: American Conservativism.

Considering BP is a foreign company (British Petroleum) with ties to everything, I disagree with this old "point at the US" thing. It simply is not the case.
(We are the ones getting the brunt of the disaster now, never the less.) Perhaps bringing more to bear on the issue of sloppy foreign companies like this than ever before.

It is however one of the worst environmental disasters ever, as this thread is spot on.
It is not the only one, but perhaps it is where it will bring more attention to the dangers of deep water drilling.
Unlike the finite amount the Exxon Valdez disaster, where it could only spill as much as the ship could hold, this could end up going on for possibly ever...
Even if a relief well or two are drilled, this may seep on, and there are seeps, totally natural under the ocean.

The deserts of Kuwait are not the delicate environmental thing the gulf of Mexico is, however no place is expendable in our interdependent ecology at all.
The burning off of this oil in Kuwait most likely spurred on global weirding and warming, by adding fuel to the fire like no other disaster could.

Now.. BP has done a few things directly, to avoid adhering to laws. Wandering around every possible regulation, they have imperiled the ecosystem in a very bad way.

This I do hold BP responsible for. And the result of their negligence is inexcusable, and has nothing to do with anyone but BP.
They directly ignored the problem, evaded their responsibility, and are continuing by making a mockery of the clean up efforts.

Merlyn

[DJ Droood]

Considering BP is a foreign company (British Petroleum) with ties to everything, I disagree with this old "point at the US" thing. It simply is not the case.

So it is ok for a foreign company to operate with little or no regulation or oversight in your territory? Hey, maybe the Chinese should buy Walmart and get some of their political prisoners to work as greeters.

[Aitrus]

There's plenty of regulation and oversight. OSHA, EPA, IRS, Dept of Labor, State and Federal regulations, Dept of Transportation, etc.

Regulation, no matter how strict, doesn't prevent accidents. That said, a company should still be held liable for the accidents that occur under it's watch (after ending the problem and cleaning up).

[Davin Raincloud]

So there you go Davin....even on a druid board there are plenty of people willing to come to the defence of poor old persecuted BP. Maybe those whiners on the Lousiana and Florida coasts shoud just stfu...the oil industry is doing its best.

Yeah, it is actually truly disheartening, like a kick in the guts.

It's not a matter of dry philosophizing when a situation is so obvious like this.

So, who is you favourite Twilight character? Do you think vampires are real?

Go Team Jacob! Personally I dare care about Mother Nature, hanging out for the release of Eclipse! OF Course the Cullens are real!

[Davin Raincloud]

Regulation, no matter how strict, doesn't prevent accidents.

Have you been following the particulars of the story in the media?

In this case improved regulation and proper independent enforcement of such Would have prevented this disaster, and in fact provided the tools to quickly fix this.

In a regulatory environment akin to 'Drill baby drill', the attitude was lax and one of turning a blind eye. Surely no one can disagree that the Bush's are tight with the Oil Industry?

[Aitrus]

Have you been following the particulars of the story in the media?

In this case improved regulation and proper independent enforcement of such Would have prevented this disaster, and in fact provided the tools to quickly fix this.

I haven't seen this beyond the opinions of the talking heads in the media. Can you provide a reference that shows how more regulation would stop something that they still don't completely know how it came to be?

In a regulatory environment akin to 'Drill baby drill', the attitude was lax and one of turning a blind eye.

And in that regulatory environment the company will pay big-time, whether it be by losing customers or by paying for the cleanup. That's the whole purpose behind the Free Market. Failure of business through dumb investing or mistakes on oil rigs is what makes it run. If you have a Free Market without the consequence of failure in the face of massive incompetence, then you have a broken system.

That kind of broken system is what the US has, and has had, since FDR.

Surely no one can disagree that the Bush's are tight with the Oil Industry?

And surely no one can disagree that the Obamas, Clintons, et al are tight with the Pharmacutical Industry, the Law Industry, the Unions, the Banking Industry, Hollywood and the majority of Wall Street? Not to mention taking over GM with no sign of letting go. Obama is a product of the Chicago political landscape. Surely he's clean as a whistle.

C'mon, just about every politican is dirty in one form or another. Let's not get into that here and now. We both know what each other will say and how it'll end up: we'll go round and round in circles until we either stomp off angry or we shake hands and agree to disagree.

I'd rather concentrate on how to get the mess cleaned up, and how we as a nation can transition smoothly to better options without getting the government involved.

[Davin Raincloud]

I'd rather concentrate on how to get the mess cleaned up, and how we as a nation can transition smoothly to better options without getting the government involved.

I think I naturally have different priorities.

The rest of the world can't stand by as an International community and say nothing.

Perhaps as international observers we may have a different perspective or perhaps more imaprtial.

[Davin Raincloud]

As a side note,

It's very interesting to peruse the history of BP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BP

You guys know that back when all these oil moguls started operations, the market was free and quickly became monopolised.

I've read up on the ruthless activties of the Rockafella family to monolopise oil.


Uhh... but of course...free markets and all that jazz..

[Merlyn]

WARNING, Merlyn is a weee upset..
Carry on...

Tis' true,
With the track record of BP, (yes very bad) we in the US should have sent them packing, and NEVER allowed this foreign company to suck liquid gold from our most already devastated marsh area, which is a major world wide breeding ground for so much, let alone one of the foremost party places on earth!

For that I do squarely blame our stupid-a$S idiot, brain dead, sack of dung excuse of a government.

Did I say that?

Good.
(sure, employ people to wipe the oil from the grass... did I say ... who is recycling the diapers they use to clean this mess up... never mind..)

by the way #@$% BP and the freakin' rest of 'em.
Hope they are taking notes!
(however I do want to remind all for the fact this is only one of the many environmental disasters by BP and we really do need to make a point)
They (BP) knew full well a few free lunches would buy off Bush and Omama... Obama

[DJ Droood]

There's plenty of regulation and oversight. OSHA, EPA, IRS, Dept of Labor, State and Federal regulations, Dept of Transportation, etc.

Regulation, no matter how strict, doesn't prevent accidents. That said, a company should still be held liable for the accidents that occur under it's watch (after ending the problem and cleaning up).

The thing is, it wasn't at all strict, and strict regulation "could" possibly prevent similar accidents in the future..it is worth a shot...here is what you have now:

Employees also attended sporting events sponsored by oil and gas production companies, and were treated to lunches and free gifts, according to a report by the U.S. Department of the Interior's inspector general Tuesday. Two employees admitted using illegal drugs, including meth.

http://blogs.forbes.com/velocity/2010/0 ... used-meth/

Now, if the regulators were held to a strict professional behavior code, and took pride in their jobs (and got the sort of respect other public servants, like military and cops and fireman get), maybe this thing would have been caught in time. The company will be held responsible, but corruption in that department needs to be purged as well.

[Davin Raincloud]

(however I do want to remind all for the fact this is only one of the many environmental disasters by BP and we really do need to make a point)

It just happens to be a contender for the biggest ever in our planet's history though.

At the rate this thing is still pissing out oil, I'd say sooner or later it will be official that it's the worst ever.

The crazy thing is, it's still going. People are talking about volunteering for the cleanup? Not much point until the thing is actually stopped! Unless of course some sort of evacuation for wildlife can be organised?


I just wonder how soon, the public will forget and it will be back to "Drill baby Drill".

[Davin Raincloud]

A good blog post on this topic.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/06/ ... index.html

For over four decades, some conservatives and centrist Democrats have waged war on the environmental infrastructure that was put into place during the 1960s and 1970s (including under Republican President Nixon).

At first, President Reagan hoped to directly overturn as many environmental regulations as possible. He appointed James Watt as secretary of Interior and Anne Gorsuch as the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, both of whom opposed many aspects of the environmental movement.

The next strategy for his administration was to start weakening oversight, using administrative decisions to protect industry and undermine the quality of the agencies responsible for these programs. Watt and Gorsuch, for example, didn't fight against proposed budget cuts that would clearly strain the capacity of their employees and accepted cost-benefit analyses that favored industry.

Gorsuch boasted that under her leadership, the EPA reduced the size of the clean water regulations manual from six inches to half an inch The EPA didn't make sure that companies were complying with regulations such as requirements to use modern pollution control equipment.

This pattern continued under President George W. Bush. As the contributors of my forthcoming book, "The Presidency of George W. Bush: The First Historical Assessment (Princeton University Press)" have argued, Bush administration officials frequently rejected scientific expertise when making decisions and staffed bureaucratic positions with people who were not sympathetic to the goals of their own organization.

[Aylyn]

So there you go Davin....even on a druid board there are plenty of people willing to come to the defence of poor old persecuted BP. Maybe those whiners on the Lousiana and Florida coasts shoud just stfu...the oil industry is doing its best.

I am not coming to the defence of BP, but my POV goes a bit further than soundbites and web articles with less than 5 lines. Yes, we need regulations and people who enforce them. but Murphy's Law tells me that everything which can go wrong will go wrong. You can regulate and enforce to the Nines, there will still be such disasters. So instead of mudslinging, I am waiting for the results of the investigation, and in the meantime hope that the people who know how to deal with oil wells can close the thing. I am certainly not participating, as I know NOTHING about it. And in general, we need to get away from oil, or we WILL have a repeat, no matter how much we try to avoid it. The fact that there is less and less oil, forcing us to exploit stores which are difficult to access makes it even likelier that something will go wrong again.

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself. And If I look in the mirror, I have to admit that I am using oil to heat my house, to power my car, to produce electricity for my computer and to make the plastic box I carry my lunch in. As such, I am part of the problem, and if you were honest to yourselves, you would have to admit that you are doing the same thing, and are just as guilty. But that would mean taking off the blinkers to see the hypocrisy in all its ugliness, right?

It is all great waving placards in front of the BP headquarters and asking for heads to roll, but none of it is going to shut down the oil well or clean up the spill. And if you use oil to get to your protest (and you probably will), that is utterly pointless in itself. As such, my focus is on getting better, renewable energies started and in the meantime making sure I use as little oil as I can. If we put pressure on the political groups that create and enforce regulations, even better. Much better than telling the people on this board that they do not care. We do, but many of us are past the point where we think that assigning blame is going to help anyone.

[Corwen]

BP isn't a foreign company, to think that is to misunderstand the nature of the Corporation. BP is a supra-national entity that exists on a world stage. Its shares are owned more or less equally by UK and US investors (see chart below), but they could belong to anyone anywhere, or any institution anywhere. Patterns of share ownership also change constantly. To find out how Corporations really work I recommend the book The Corporation by Joel Bakan (http://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Pathological-Pursuit-Profit-Power/dp/0743247442). You can also watch the film based on the book online (http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=102). Please do, its a great explanation of the structure and motivations of corporations which are the dominant institutions of our age.


% BP Share Ownership.
By principal area
UK Institutions 33% Individuals 7% Total 40%
US Institutions 25% Individuals 14% Total 39%
Rest of Europe Institutions 10% Individuals - Total 10%
Rest of World Institutions 7% Individuals - Total 7%
Miscellaneous Institutions 4% Individuals - Total 4%

[DJ Droood]

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself.

Do you have the correct scripture quote for this? I'd like to look it up in the source material.

[Aylyn]

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself.

Do you have the correct scripture quote for this? I'd like to look it up in the source material.

I said I have learned it, not I have read it. Sometimes, try using your own brain.

[DJ Droood]

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself.

Do you have the correct scripture quote for this? I'd like to look it up in the source material.

I said I have learned it, not I have read it. Sometimes, try using your own brain.

Thank you, I will try that....it just sounded like similar advice to the other bible quote you used, so I thought I would cross reference...it seemed to go to my original point in this thread of how/why people are so "forgiving" of BP, especially in the US.

[Davin Raincloud]

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself.

Do you have the correct scripture quote for this? I'd like to look it up in the source material.

Matthew 7:1-6 (New International Version)

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

[Davin Raincloud]

No Need to wait, the same people who are to blame for the deregulated environment are now playing you, the environmenalist.

It seems the environmentalist is to blame for the accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdxOyPk1-4c