Animism, Pantheism, Atheism, and Druidry

[DaRC]

I thinks it's the'ism' part - it always seems to bring trouble with it; communism, capitalism...

[Merlyn]

Hi Blaiddwen,
I kind of waited to see when the definitions would be defined and definitely defining druidry defies definition definitely.
Now that defining is perhaps defined, With the holy book of wikipedia and the more off the cuff ideas put forth....

In my estimation, we bring our own understandings/beliefs to our spirituality, and Animism, Pantheism, Atheism are 3 core understandings that are frequently found among Drui folk. While some of the concepts found within these 3 understandings seem to mirror the other, there are concepts that remain unique to each.
First, I'd like to try to establish a working definition of each of these beliefs/philosophies, then discuss how we relate these concepts to our Druidry.

I look at two things distinctly;
How do these relate and work within the OBOD and other kinds of druidry like reconstructionism and other orders.
And how they evolve in the personal ways druidry grows from the core concepts of druidism.

Within the OBOD course, I can definitely find animism and pantheism.
Those come to mind quickly. I expect others can point to atheism, and would like to see possibly some examples.

[Blaiddwen]

Hi Blaiddwen,
I kind of waited to see when the definitions would be defined and definitely defining druidry defies definition definitely.
Now that defining is perhaps defined, With the holy book of wikipedia and the more off the cuff ideas put forth....

In my estimation, we bring our own understandings/beliefs to our spirituality, and Animism, Pantheism, Atheism are 3 core understandings that are frequently found among Drui folk. While some of the concepts found within these 3 understandings seem to mirror the other, there are concepts that remain unique to each.
First, I'd like to try to establish a working definition of each of these beliefs/philosophies, then discuss how we relate these concepts to our Druidry.

I look at two things distinctly;
How do these relate and work within the OBOD and other kinds of druidry like reconstructionism and other orders.
And how they evolve in the personal ways druidry grows from the core concepts of druidism.

Within the OBOD course, I can definitely find animism and pantheism.
Those come to mind quickly. I expect others can point to atheism, and would like to see possibly some examples.

Much of the literature that Drui folk are fond of studying can have a different flavour when read through an Animist, Panthiest, ect, lense. One in particular, Cad Goddeu, has very strong Animistic overtones. So to a modern Ogham student, to find an Animist's mind sight would be helpful, IMO. Merlyn, I agree that the course contains alot of Animism and Pantheism, however, Panentheism can also be seen in some of the course language. Incorporating these understandings/beliefs into my Druidry is as simple (not easy) as finding which philosophy resonates most. Not easy, I say because alot of people are not purely one or the other, and must find the essence within themselves.
I'm not really sure that Animism or Panentheism aids my Druidry as much as Druidry has aided me in defining my own inner philosophy.

[Mudpaw]

Wow, this is a really good post. This is the kind of meat and potatoes, thought-provoking, introspective discussion I was hoping for when I decided to join the ranks.

I’ve considered myself a pantheist for the past few years; my understanding of pantheism is that God is the Universe, and the processes associated with the Universe. I found that after the many belief systems I’ve studied or have been exposed to, I could most easily access divinity and develop spirituality by observing the uncorrupted processes of the Universe; the natural processes. These are tangible things, but at the same time they remain magical and mysterious.

Now keep in mind that when I picture God, he does not sit in the clouds, sporting a great white beard. Instead, He is in the garden, and has a foliate head.

Because I do believe that there is purpose and reason behind these processes, I cannot suspend my belief in God, so atheism does not work for me .

Animism seems to be defined differently, depending upon where one happens to source information. Animism in the sense that nature has a soul or a consciousness…well, I believe that idea has merit, but I don’t know that it’s something I am able to understand quite yet. However, I firmly believe that all things have a kind of energy, and that energy is shared by all natural things. Animism in the sense that there is an organizing force behind the Universe’s (God’s) processes…well that belief goes hand in hand with my pantheistic beliefs.

The one thing I was missing as a pantheist was fellowship. Although I’ve been kind of an elder advisor to a local pagan group for some years, I found that they were more interested in the historical or romantic side of what might be considered ‘pagan’ belief systems, and not very interested in developing spirituality; spirituality, to me, is developing a close, personal relationship with Nature/God/ the Universe’s natural processes.

Last weekend, my wife and I visited Glastonbury, and when we came back down from a relaxing afternoon on the Tor, I had a natural urge to follow the Druid path. I know no Druids, have had no contact with this forum before this week, but something directed me (some natural process?). After doing some research and coming to understand how diverse, tolerant and welcoming OBOD was, I ordered my Bard training.

So, to offer a newcomers perspective that might be relevant to the original post, I have chosen to become a Druid because not only will I maintain my pantheistic (and to a degree my animistic) beliefs, but I also have high hopes that I will develop my spirituality through fellowship with other Druids. In a way, it is my pantheistic belief system that guided me toward Druidry.

All the best ,

Steve (Mudpaw)

[Blaiddwen]

Welcome Mudpaw, it is good to meet you
For definition's sake, my Animism tells me that each being has their own spirit, just as you, I ,and Mother Earth do. None of us is disconnected, each flower is my brother, each stone my father, ect. You and I are children of Nature, as are the Coyotes, Mosquitos, and Politicians.

[DJ Droood]

Because I do believe that there is purpose and reason behind these processes, I cannot suspend my belief in God, so atheism does not work for me .

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jello, and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

Penn Jilette

I would like to add that I am able to suspend my *disbelief* in God, so atheism works for me in any way I chose! I am the master of my beliefs..i try not to let them master me.

[Corwen]

Welcome to the forum and the order Mudpaw. Its a shame you weren't visiting Glastonbury this weekend as its the OBOD midsummer gathering this weekend and you could have met lots of us in the flesh!

For me Animism is nabout relationship and personhood rather than 'spirit'. Animism is described as a 'relational ontology' by theologians and philosophers. I'd try to explain what that means but I don't have time right now, have to go and practise for tonight! Anyhow nice to meet you!

[Mudpaw]

For definition's sake, my Animism tells me that each being has their own spirit, just as you, I ,and Mother Earth do. None of us is disconnected, each flower is my brother, each stone my father, ect. You and I are children of Nature, as are the Coyotes, Mosquitos, and Politicians

I noticed how you used two different parasites, “Mosquitos, and Politicians” in your example . Seriously though, I also believe that we are all connected, and that we share the same energy. I may adjust these beliefs as I progress through the OBOD traning

I am the master of my beliefs..i try not to let them master me.

Agreed! Blind devotion and blind faith seems to be a lazy approach to spirituality, and it does little to bring one closer to enlightenment. How many people do we all know that, like part of a herd of drones, congregate in a place of worship regularly? This congregation seems to occur because it is what the congregation believes they are supposed to do, and oftentimes, spiritual growth is not a priority.

Welcome to the forum and the order Mudpaw. Its a shame you weren't visiting Glastonbury this weekend as its the OBOD midsummer gathering this weekend and you could have met lots of us in the flesh!

Well, we’re heading back to the States to visit family for about a month and a half next week. However, when we return I can certainly see myself coming to Glastonbury about once a month! I can't wait to meet a few of you. Are there any goings on in this part of the country, in East Anglia?

Animism is described as a 'relational ontology' by theologians and philosophers.

Yes, I have heard this term in the past (in, believe it or not, a Philosophy of Art class), but I’ve only heard it as it applied to theTrinity (Colin Gunton’s work) and to be quite honest, I did not delve too deeply. If you get a chance, I would love to hear how this connects to animism and Druidry.

Thanks all. It's great to discuss these things with a mature, educated bunch of folks.

[DJ Droood]

I don't see a conflict between animism and atheism, as philosophical stances:

Animism (from Latin anima "soul, life")[1][2] is a philosophical, religious or spiritual idea that souls or spirits exist not only in humans but also in animals, plants, rocks, natural phenomena such as thunder, geographic features such as mountains or rivers, or other entities of the natural environment.[3] Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names or metaphors in mythology.

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]

There is an odd assumption that athiests believe in nothing. (well, not really odd...the political ideology "religion" has always controlled which words we are allowed to use and their meaning...sort of like the way they equate "anarchy" with "chaos".) There is no reason the atheist could not nurture animist notions.

[Mudpaw]

This is a good comparison of relevant quotes DJ Drood, and you are absolutely right, these are not conflicting philosophies.

Personally, part of me could certainly subscribe to atheism. Another part though, recognizes (or hopes to recognize) the mechanic behind the great universal machine. Not necessarily an entity that is overly concerned about some final product, but rather, a reasoning force that continues to grease the cogs.

I think that if I were to identify that force to simply be a part of some natural process, then atheism seems to be a good fit. If, however, I recognize some sentient reason behind the process, I wonder if I could still claim atheistic beliefs.

I am really starting to see how a reasoning mind can find value in these many ‘isms’, if only for their ability to provoke introspection .

[Jake]

I'm an atheist and I also consider myself an animist. But I don't believe in the existence of souls or spirits anymore than I believe in the existence of gods. I find that, for me, all those beliefs are an impediment to understanding and enjoyment.

I guess we should be grateful to the Victorian anthropologists and philosophers Corwen mentioned earlier who imagined a linear evolution from "animism" to polytheism, to henotheism, to monotheism, to Ethical Monotheism, to Spinozan Pantheism>Agnosticism>It's impolite to talk about religion at the dinner table now please pass the gravy.

It seems to me that by defining animists, at least partially, as those people so uncivilized that they haven't developed a belief in gods yet, they somewhat removed animism from the theist spectrum thus leaving the concept free from a lot of western religious baggage and a little more open to the kind of development and elaboration we see in the "New Animism."

Like Corwen said, it's all about personhood and relationships. In fact he said it so beautifully that I can't help quoting a big chunk of it.

I don't think 'presence' necessitates 'soul', to believe this is to have unconsciously swallowed a Christian style dualism, which separates matter and spirit, making for a rather chopped up world which we can see only half of. The tree is obviously a very good 'tree person', (very good at being a tree that is), and you and the tree obviously have a good and respectful relationship, a relationship which an Animist sees as between persons, not between souls.

I actually have a big problem with the words soul and spirit, because I don't want the emphasis in our relationships to be with parts of beings which we can't see and have no proof about. I am more interested in how we relate to other beings in the here and now. Positing the existence of a soul or even the lack of a soul, or the worst of all worlds where some people/beings have souls and others don't, has been used to justify some very poor relating in the past, both among human people and in our relationships with other-than-human-people.

Bundled with and implicit in the words soul and spirit are all sorts of other ideas about other worlds, afterlives, God, judgement and so on. I don't have to believe in any of that to be 'spiritual' (there's that word again, perhaps I should substitute a musical metaphor like 'harmonious'). I don't need any of that stuff to relate to other persons in a respectful and kind way, even to those persons I have to eat.

I think this is really exciting and I wonder that more people don't seem to find it so. It's at once so basic and intuitive and yet represents such a radical shift in "religious" thinking and in our perception of the world.

[Mudpaw]

I'm digging this Jake,

as those people so uncivilized that they haven't developed a belief in gods yet,

or perhaps those people so advanced that they’ve developed beyond a belief in gods?

I think Corwen’s quote has the ring of neutral monism, the philosophy that was kind of loosely recognized by Hume and built upon by many advocates.

Here’s a quote from Bertrand Russell that seems to be at least in the same ballpark as Corwen’s as far as consciousness/matter dualism.

I think…that an ultimate scientific account of what goes on in the world, if it were ascertainable, would resemble psychology rather than physics…such an account would not be content to speak, even formally, as though matter, which is a logical fiction, were the ultimate reality. I think that, if our scientific knowledge were adequate to the task, which it neither is nor is likely to become, it would…state the causal laws of the world in terms of…particulars, not in terms of matter. Causal laws so stated would, I believe, be applicable to psychology and physics equally; the science in which they were stated would succeed in achieving what metaphysics has vainly attempted, namely a unified account of what really happens, wholly true even if not the whole of truth, and free from all convenient fictions or unwarrantable assumptions of metaphysical entities. (Russell 1921, 305–6)

Quoted in Stubenberg, Leopold. "Neutral Monism." Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Stanford: Metaphysics Research Lab, 2005. Web. <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/>.

This seems to be a very good article on the subject, and it has me thinking even deeper.

[Bible Study Boy]

I believe that is probably true that many bring their own beliefs to religion as well. I know I did until I read the bible. After years of study, I realized that those ideas and beliefs I brought to the table were wrong. I also realized that many professing Christians have no idea what the bible really says, and that few really read it. This is why I no longer go to church. I believe if you are going to proclaim belief in something you should at least have knowledge of it. To do otherwise is not wise.

[Huathe]

I believe that is probably true that many bring their own beliefs to religion as well. I know I did until I read the bible. After years of study, I realized that those ideas and beliefs I brought to the table were wrong. I also realized that many professing Christians have no idea what the bible really says, and that few really read it. This is why I no longer go to church. I believe if you are going to proclaim belief in something you should at least have knowledge of it. To do otherwise is not wise.

I so much agree!