Childless by choice

[Bracken]

Just looking up a list of reasons of why people reproduce.

An extremely negative list that casts parents as the enemy. Again, I think Argenta may have a point.

unconscious unthinking desire

Oops!

[treegod]

Well actually Treegod, if you look at this

so everybody who adds more people to the population is adding to the problem and increasing the suffering when the inevitable downfall comes. Not only that, their children will have children also, and their children too. It is a snowball effect.

And then, in a few decades, when run out of oil, out of top soil, out of space, out of drinking water, out of forests, out of 'resources', then those 10 billion offspring will be at each other's throats, may the fittest survive. Most of them will die from war and famine, especially the folks in the city, they don't stand a chance when the supermarkets close. Thanks to the ancestors... which is us, and those who came before us. We honour them at appropriate times, but they were mostly selfish rotten bastards also, like we are, leaving this mess for us and those who come after us.

and this

any cow has calves

I think you might see how Argenta reached the conclusion that she did.

I see. Yes she's right, that is a bit judgemental.

But it did seem to me she was making a comment on the thread as a whole, not just those two individuals (people with a certain reputation, perhaps? ).

I swear, I'm not passing any sort of judgement here on any of the other posters, childless or otherwise and for whatever reason. What I am saying is having babies is something we do. Every day I feel joy that this miracle happened to me. And honeastly, it was sort of an accident.

That's it, you've sold it to me. No backing out now.

I think it's a gamble. Can I raise and educate my children so that they won't put a burden on the planet and even to survive if things get bad? I don't know, but I feel I'm in the right situation and in the right relationship to make a good go of it.

[Bracken]

Funny treegod.

I suppose it is a gamble if you have any doubts about it. I really meant what I said in my first post. I think only people who are going to treat their children like visiting Gods should even consider it. I really support people who can say "It's not for me" and do something else with their lives.

Unfortunately, I know too many people who talk about their kids as though they were a burden. Luckily, I also know a good crowd of mums here who wouldn't have life any other way. We would all benefit from parents who really wanted us.

[Aylyn]

any cow has calves

...So, if that makes me a cow, then moo!

I see I have to explain that comment a wee bit, because it certainly was not my intent to compare any woman (with or without kids) to a cow. I am glad that Bracken took it as a joke

As I have stated, I have never, ever wanted children, not even when I was very young. Maybe it has something to do with my genetics or hormones, but I just feel no great pull towards children, I am pretty indifferent to them, and for my personal life planning they have never played a role. That was my personal decision, and I have always made that clear. However, when I started working in science, I have several times been denied promotions, trainings or better job options on the basis of "Someday, you will hear the call of your belly and go to have children. We are not going to waste a large amount of money on a woman who will do that." (Original quote from my bosses at the time.) So no matter how talented or interested I was, I was reduced to my physical bodily function, just like the cows we keep in the fields. It has made me pretty pissed off with this kind of sexism, and has sparked the comment I posted. I just want to make it clear that a woman is more than just any cow....

Maybe that is also the reason why I react so strongly to the kind of pagan prejudice: that a woman without kids is incomplete. It is the same kind of sexism, only this time disguised as spiritual fulfillment. And it makes me just as mad as the other kind of sexism, because it is just as bad.

Whether people have kids or not should be their own decision and not be judged by others. However, there still is that kind of notion that ANY woman will, sooner or later, submit to her biology and be desperate for children. That this might not be the case seems to surprise even people that usually keep an open mind. And there certainly should not be the expectation that your biology overrides everything else in your life.

And if I insulted anyone: I apologize

[Bracken]

I have several times been denied promotions, trainings or better job options on the basis of "Someday, you will hear the call of your belly and go to have children. We are not going to waste a large amount of money on a woman who will do that." (Original quote from my bosses at the time.)

Yep. That is absolutely diabolical.

Interestingly, I know a woman (a very, very good friend) who is a member of the FWBO, the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order. She had a baby girl about 4 years ago, and since then she has been very actively involved in discourse within her order involving the presumption that having children presents barriers to your spiritual development. As though having a child can stop you from being able to practice mindfulness or meditate or whatever. In my experience, children keep you mindful whether you want it or not. They constantly bring you back to 'this moment' over and over, for years.

It is interesting to me, though no surprise, that we can be judged as in the wrong no matter what our choice.

[And Aylyn, absolutely no insult felt. I love opinionated women. X]

[Argenta]

Actually, I think it was Davin that really got to me in the wee hours of the morning

I guess I'm a bit touchy about this topic because it's something very relevant for me at the moment. As I said, I really don't think everyone should have kids, but I also don't think nobody should have them -- for whatever reasons. I am also at a period in my life where I am rather intolerant of extreme positions on whichever topic. And I've heard more than enough extreme paroles on this issue.

Come to think of it, if I were really smart, I wouldn't have got involved in the topic in the first place.
Still, I'm glad I did, if for nothing else, then for reading Bracken's comments

[Bracken]

Hey, Argenta. You're very welcome here. It's good to meet you. X

[Julysea]

I've always looked on having children as a 'calling' -rather like being a priest or a doctor. Obviously we need some people to be priests and doctors but it's not for everyone and those who make other choices, that's great, there are many other ways to contribute to society and have a fulfilling life, and we only want people who are fully committed to being priests and doctors to play that role - same with parenting.

Also, from a purely selfish point of view - I want there to be plenty of adult role models for my children who don't have children of their own as they provide a really valuable and different viewpoint for the next generation from people who are parents.

[Bracken]

Also, from a purely selfish point of view - I want there to be plenty of adult role models for my children who don't have children of their own as they provide a really valuable and different viewpoint for the next generation from people who are parents.

Really good point.

[Kat Lady]

I have one child and now fully understand why some species eat their young....

[Bracken]

[Davin Raincloud]

Actually, I think it was Davin that really got to me in the wee hours of the morning

Nice Real Nice

Talking about me like I'm not part of the thread is a form of bullying.

Time I take a break from the OBOD forum. It gets like this here sometimes, where certain people like myself are not tolerated, unless we tow the Politically Correct line.


Time for a break. Consider my account inactive.

[Bracken]

Davin! I think you've taken this the wrong way. Nobody was 'bullying you, and the forum would be less without you.

[Argenta]

Actually, I think it was Davin that really got to me in the wee hours of the morning

Nice Real Nice

Talking about me like I'm not part of the thread is a form of bullying.

Time I take a break from the OBOD forum. It gets like this here sometimes, where certain people like myself are not tolerated, unless we tow the Politically Correct line.

Time for a break. Consider my account inactive.

I truly and deeply apologize. I really didn't think my words would be taken to sound that harshly.
Please notice I'm both new around here, and that English is not my mother tongue. If I have offended in any way, it was not on purpose.
Kindly reconsider your decision, if it was prompted by my post alone.

[treegod]

It's a difficult and potentially explosive subject this, parenthood or not parenthood, not to mention the values involved. Even I've been scared to put comments on here

Anyone that passes through here unscathed deserves a Diplomat's or Peacekeeper's certificate

[Padfoot]

I am childless by choice and in all honesty have never even considered that this could or would have any inpact on my spiritual beliefs, maybe I'm just being a bit dim
As with all things I think you should have the freedom of choice and if you have decided you do not want children for whatever reason that's your right and you should certainly not be made to feel any less a pagan / druid / or whatever because of your decision. I would be looking for a new group to attend where I was valued as a person not a reproductive machine!!

[Womble]

Well said, Padfoot!

I'm also childless by choice, much to the dismay of my ex-husband's mother, who told me that people who don't have kids are widely disliked and are miserable, and that I need psychiatric help in order to make me want kids. Nice, eh?

I was about 8 years old when I decided I didn't want kids and, 30 years on, I haven't changed my mind one jot. I find it extremely patronising when people say "ooh, you'll change your mind, you can't ignore your body clock" etc. etc. When I got married, people would say "there'll be the pitter patter of tiny feet soon then" and I'd say "yes, I'd quite like a dog".

Nowadays, most people tend not to ask why I don't have kids, but those few who do will usually respond with something like "fair play" or "good for you for knowing what you want".

Don't let anyone make you feel bad for the choices you have made in life. What suits them is not necessary what suits you - only you know what you really want. Remember, no-one can make you feel inferior without your permission!

[Monk Seal]

My 2 cents:

Just wondered if any one else out there is childless by choice, and if this has anything to do with your spirituality or not?

I am thus far, ie. me and my lady. If you exclude 3 crazy male cats Whether we will remain childless, carless, computerless or paint our hair green, is completely and utterly our own personal choice and our BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to choose. And afaiac, no community has any rights to judge or influence this. Most of them took it upon themselves over the centuries by sheer mob- and lobby-power. And any community doing it anyway is mobbing, forcefully imposing, discriminating and promoting intolerance. If, in such community's eyes, we are faulty or defective due to our own personal decisions, and if that same community is judging people for their personal choices which don't hurt or insult anyone, and don't really collide with any of that same community's laws or REAL, rightful and fair rules of conduct, then such a community has SERIOUS issues and should be in no circumstances be considered personality- or freedom- respecting (looking at the way the so-called civilization is going, relating to it as 'having issues' is more than putting it midly). One is good for parenting, the other is a great singer. The third has a dark skin, the fourth is of a different religion than the other three, and the fifth has decided not to have children. Where is the difference between the dark-skinned guy's HUMAN RIGHT to be black, the fourth's guy HUMAN RIGHT to believe in what he wants and the fifth's HUMAN RIGHT to decide to have or not to have kids?

I have a right to be different than you, you have a right to be different than her. And each of us also has rights to make our own choices. If our own choices don't hurt, insult or affect anyone, who has the right to label them as right, wrong, appropriate or inappropriate?

[Nightfalls]

I think, from an evolutionary standpoint, that we need to reproduce. Now that is not to say some may choose not to, because there are plenty or retards out there pumping out kids like there is no tomorrow. In my opinion, there needs to be a limit imposed. 2-3 Kids Maximum in a lifetime, like Japan is doing right?? That would help to slow or stop the problem we have currently which is the snowballing effect of overpopulation.

If you choose not to have kids fear not, for there are others out there just like you! http://www.vhemt.org/

[Serpentia]

I'm a single (again) mother of two sons and for one very simple reason: I wanted to have them. I did not want to reproduce for the good of the world, I did not refuse to reproduce for the sake of the environment... I had children out of love and I am raising them to the best of my abilities out of love.

To me there is only one person who can make the decision whether to have children or not and nobody has the right to question her, no matter which way the decision falls. Because they will be her children as long as they live..and after.

Serpentia
feeling very passionate about this