The afterlife of an aborted Einstein

[Attila]

The afterlife of an aborted Einstein
or
The second life of an aborted Einstein

NOT A DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION

For me this is another debate about wisdom ~ kind of from a god perspective. How to make an Einstein if he was aborted…

Short question; If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein?

Now most of you wont read even all of this, indeed some will probably reply thinking it a debate about abortion ~ having only read the title, so you will forgive me if I keep it as short as possible.

Q, would a duplicate of you be you?
Firstly I presume there is a transcendental qualia remaining after every aspect of ‘you’ is copied, so if a perfect copy of you was made there would be; [’I’ = self/‘you‘] ‘I’ 1 + body 1 X ‘I’ 2+ body 2. yet the ‘I’ which is you is you and not the copy even though it would think it is you. If you could talk to the copy version of you, then you would know it is not you bla bla… so let just call that the transcendental qualia of youness.

Given that there is a transcendental qualia that is ‘you’, then we may presume it is duplicated as soon as the foetus begins its life.
If not then we have to ‘invent’ some mechanism by which a soul [or spirit or self by any name] may enter the body, when there would be no further causal opportunity for it to do so. Let us try as we can to keep to our friend Mr Occam [Occam’s razor] and keep it to the simplest thing.

If we presume that as the ‘soul’ [let us call it; ‘TQ’ ~ transcendental qualia] is not material even though it is brought into being by living things, then my question is;

What happens to a TQ [soul] once created but the body has died?

Would an aborted foetus grow up in ‘heaven’ [given otherworld] and become the same person it would have become?
Would a copy of Einstein be Einstein? Or would Einstein even become himself?

Let us imagine that the transcendental qualia is Einstein I.e. has also the qualia of who he is. If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein? Equally if we put someone else into Einstein’s body, would that someone else become Einstein?

In short; is it about who we are, or is it all about what we inherit [the human form]? Or both?

If Einstein had been aborted as a foetus, would his soul still become that of Einstein.

Would wisdom denote that he must be, if so how?

[FoxPhantom]

The afterlife of an aborted Einstein
or
The second life of an aborted Einstein

NOT A DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION

For me this is another debate about wisdom ~ kind of from a god perspective. How to make an Einstein if he was aborted…

Short question; If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein?

Now most of you wont read even all of this, indeed some will probably reply thinking it a debate about abortion ~ having only read the title, so you will forgive me if I keep it as short as possible.

Q, would a duplicate of you be you?
Firstly I presume there is a transcendental qualia remaining after every aspect of ‘you’ is copied, so if a perfect copy of you was made there would be; [’I’ = self/‘you‘] ‘I’ 1 + body 1 X ‘I’ 2+ body 2. yet the ‘I’ which is you is you and not the copy even though it would think it is you. If you could talk to the copy version of you, then you would know it is not you bla bla… so let just call that the transcendental qualia of youness.

Given that there is a transcendental qualia that is ‘you’, then we may presume it is duplicated as soon as the foetus begins its life.
If not then we have to ‘invent’ some mechanism by which a soul [or spirit or self by any name] may enter the body, when there would be no further causal opportunity for it to do so. Let us try as we can to keep to our friend Mr Occam [Occam’s razor] and keep it to the simplest thing.

If we presume that as the ‘soul’ [let us call it; ‘TQ’ ~ transcendental qualia] is not material even though it is brought into being by living things, then my question is;

What happens to a TQ [soul] once created but the body has died?

Would an aborted foetus grow up in ‘heaven’ [given otherworld] and become the same person it would have become?
Would a copy of Einstein be Einstein? Or would Einstein even become himself?

Let us imagine that the transcendental qualia is Einstein I.e. has also the qualia of who he is. If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein? Equally if we put someone else into Einstein’s body, would that someone else become Einstein?

In short; is it about who we are, or is it all about what we inherit [the human form]? Or both?

If Einstein had been aborted as a foetus, would his soul still become that of Einstein.

Would wisdom denote that he must be, if so how?

I have a idea, but I don't know how well this idea will work, since this is just having my head go on all 4 cylinders. (since the question is rather confusing, and straightforward at the same time, and might take me multiple things out to get it right.)

If the soul has been made to be smart in the current life time, then it's possible that it would still even in the other world.

Now if there was a duplicate of me that would be coming from the same body, wouldn't it be called a identical twin? Since a twin will almost doing the same thing the other half is doing in physical terms. Yet if it's the I that is the you, would there be two souls instead of one controlling a body?

[Attila]

FoxPhantom

If the soul has been made to be smart in the current life time, then it's possible that it would still even in the other world.

You make a very good point there! One of the things I was contemplating is the idea that if I had been aborted, then all that I am [at least in a past life context] would be in the transcendental qualia [the ‘you’]. like an acorn has all the information of the fully grown oak, our DNA in the foetus has all the info of the fully grown human. Either of these would give us a basis in the afterlife that we could grow into, both added especially so.
I have often heard psychics say how lost babies continue in the afterlife, if so then the transcendental qualia would possibly have all the info needed. I doubt that we would be the same in terms of our outer personality but it offers an answer to how wisdom would resolve such issues best it can.

Now if there was a duplicate of me that would be coming from the same body, wouldn't it be called a identical twin? Since a twin will almost doing the same thing the other half is doing in physical terms. Yet if it's the I that is the you, would there be two souls instead of one controlling a body?

If there were two ‘you’s in the same body that would be problematic/schizophrenic, for twins I think we can see the same scenario as of a duplicate like a clone or what have you. The second twin is a different person, so it is the same thing, you have two people with the same bodies.

The thought experiment of duplication is to show that one can duplicate every aspect of you, and it wouldn’t be ‘you’. once the transcendental qualia is thus established, then it doesn’t matter if we are twins or two distinct people, we only need to show that it is not the material form that is you, the material form is the expression and not the thing itself.

[Nightfalls]

as far as the TQ goes, yes i believe it would be the same Einstein. But, if we are talking about an Einstein TQ in another body, then we are forgetting the outside influences that can determine a persons identity. Parents, friends, relatives, family friends, everyone and everything including the environment the person is raised in can determine the outcome of someones identity. Even complete strangers can completely change a person. If we had placed the Ein TQ in the same body, but in a different place, would he have been the same person?

[Zylah]

Basically what this seems like to me (forgive me if I misunderstand) is another form of the Determinism vs. Volition argument. Or an extension of the Nature vs. Nurture argument. What you are attempting here is to dissect the workings of the soul, which does not really lend itself to dissection. So even as we go into it, we have to realize there is most likely not going to be a definitive conclusion.

That said, it's a fascinating subject. In a way, it's asking, "How much of 'me' is truly 'mine'?"

I have no evidence, and I doubt anyone really would, since this is not one of those questions that lends itself to science to be addressed. It's a philosophical issue. However, I believe that if Einstein were aborted, or stillborn, or the victim of SIDS, or whatever disaster we can impute, the TQ remains what it was before the attempted entry to this realm. The soul then has to re-enter when the opportunity is granted; it will never be exactly the same, because so many of the external factors will by necessity be different. However, nothing of the essential journey is lost, because the soul and the journey trump the details of one lifetime's particular existence.

My two cents.

[Frog]

a deep, but interesting question.

I guess there are three elements that make up "you" - your parents DNA (two elements), an enigmatic "soul spark" of life and finally "life circumstances".

The DNA element will provide you with some of the features that make who you are - whether you have fair hair, dark hair, diabetes etc. So if this element changes, then the final outcome changes.

The other aspect is life opportunities. Even allowing for elements of the "soul spark" if you don't have the right opportunities presented then the final outcome changes - unless you agree to the fatalistic life is determined.

[Attila]

Nightfalls

as far as the TQ goes, yes i believe it would be the same Einstein. But, if we are talking about an Einstein TQ in another body, then we are forgetting the outside influences that can determine a persons identity. Parents, friends, relatives, family friends, everyone and everything including the environment the person is raised in can determine the outcome of someones identity. Even complete strangers can completely change a person. If we had placed the Ein TQ in the same body, but in a different place, would he have been the same person?

If we made a duplicate of Einstein then its TQ would have a value of ‘0’ as I believe all originally do. It would straight away gain all the qualia of Einstein from the body it inherited although it would have only existed for moment, …although I am inclined to disagree with myself there. I think that a TQ with no previous life qualia would change the second Einstein from the beginning and become a completely different person. The original Einstein would have qualia of experience it has attained in life and would thus continue to be who he is.


Zylah, hi

I wasn’t thinking along the lines of the ‘Nature vs. Nurture argument’, for me the TQ gets in the vehicle [human body] or is born within it, and it then operates according to the functions of a machine. When you get in a car you can do what cars can do. Though I think it’s a little more flexible than a rigid machine and we have many other qualia of mind which all interact with the body and brain. The brain maybe largely causal, but there is uncertainty and improbability which breaks the causal chain. As I see it the TQ largely goes along with the causal chain but can stop and think hey no I don’t want to do this, or I do want to change that etc. in short, the TQ is equally a causal factor as any other.

Good question there; what is truly mine! If you lived a life and your body died, what is left would be you, but you wouldn’t know what that is until you are an adult or otherwise advanced soul in your next body. The then ’you’ would have changed with respect to its new body, and hence would still only be partly you. So I guess the overall multi life-time ‘you’ would be a gathering of all the qualities not of a particular incarnation. I fundamentally believe all things are shared entities rather than sets of absolutes, so I am fine with accepting I am part of something greater.

I have no evidence, and I doubt anyone really would, since this is not one of those questions that lends itself to science to be addressed. It's a philosophical issue. However, I believe that if Einstein were aborted, or stillborn, or the victim of SIDS, or whatever disaster we can impute, the TQ remains what it was before the attempted entry to this realm. The soul then has to re-enter when the opportunity is granted; it will never be exactly the same, because so many of the external factors will by necessity be different. However, nothing of the essential journey is lost, because the soul and the journey trump the details of one lifetime's particular existence.

Interesting. I am inclined to agree there is some manner of singularity of self, so you would have Einstein but not the one who discovers relativity, but maybe becomes a very good scientist anyway.
I often wonder if certain TQ’s are placed in the right bodies and others lost in the whole process of attaining such einstiens who discover relativity ~ it’s a fate thing. see also below...


Frog, hi

The other aspect is life opportunities. Even allowing for elements of the "soul spark" if you don't have the right opportunities presented then the final outcome changes

I agree, perhaps there is a ‘like attracts like’ aspect about it all, and in the end we all get the bodies we are supposed to in order to be us. History would not be history if everything didn’t slot into place in a certain way. Visions wouldn’t mean anything too, although they are quite abstract so it seams there are things that must happen and some flexibility in how they happen and by whom.

......................

We are on a fine line of object and subject here, equally on the line of what is material and immaterial. It is almost nothing and yet everything we ‘essentially’ are. When we get to the base of anything dont we find it to be exactly the same as this! i.e. we end up with a lack of absolutes and material in the normal sense.

If I didn’t know I am and were a vast computer analysing the human object, then I would consider it so that a human being is a biological machine. As I see it no matter how much stuff you add together, there remains a oneness that relates to and is affected by those myriad things. The simple act of duplication seams to show this, we simply don’t have another answer [as yet] to say what we are when everything about us is duplicated. There has to be something left remaining.

[DaRC]

I wonder what Einstein would have thought of this Given that he probably didn't believe in God (although I'm not too sure about the soul/individual spark) per se: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza#Philosophy

The thing is that whilst you might like to consider us a machine - we're more of an ecosystem or symbiont, one where it's none too certain whether we're there for the bacteria / symbiotic creatures or vice versa.
So you would have to argue that all the bacteria etc... were the same in the body as well.

It's an interesting argument and one that has been explored by quite a few SF writers - usually when writing about clones or cyborgs.
More specifically Joe Haldeman considers it in the Forever War series and Data in Star Trek -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_%28Star_Trek%29

[Attila]

DaRC

The thing is that whilst you might like to consider us a machine - we're more of an ecosystem or symbiont, one where it's none too certain whether we're there for the bacteria / symbiotic creatures or vice versa.
So you would have to argue that all the bacteria etc... were the same in the body as well.

Initially I would say all life has TQ, then when you get collections of life as one life you get an overall TQ. It is as if the space occupied by a body is always considered as a singularity in spiritual terms. This may not be so with e.g. ants and other such life-forms, whilst they have singular TQ’s per individual, I believe they also have a TQ for a hive-mind consciousness and perhaps in some cases an overall TQ per species. This is where we start getting towards archetypes, deities and gods etc.

I don’t consider us to be a machine, but our human functions and thoughts may be seen in the main as mechanistic.

More specifically Joe Haldeman considers it in the Forever War series and Data in Star Trek

‘Data’ for me fails because it has no TQ, it is a machine just as our human form is without us being present. In that case it is no different spiritually to a rock.
There may be an argument if it was made of biological components or partly so. Its an interesting idea because we have to ask if there is a point where a machine has TQ, if e.g. it has a quantum computer then it is not purely part of a causal chain. I feel that the ability to interact is fundamental to life and consciousness, so once universal consciousness can make an effect [its that ‘free will’ thing again] then it partakes in its being and then we have life and consciousness.

[Aitrus]

I think of the soul kind of like a world traveller setting out to write a book.

The traveller wanders the world for a bit, goes home to jot down notes, goes for another trip to a different place, goes home for more notes, etc. The cycle repeats until the traveller has viewed and seen enough to write the book on his subject (whether that subject be food, religion, sunsets, etc). In this, the traveller starts having an interest in a subject, but wants to learn more about it. As he travels his experiences change how he views his subject, how he appreciates it, he gets to know many of the varieties of it. At that point, the traveller pauses travelling, writes his book, cashes his royalty checks, and does some more travelling in order to see more places... In the end he retires to a home full of the memories of a life lived well, full of variety, experiences and an appreciation for the spice of life centered around his chosen subject. This is when the traveller stops travelling and fades away into the cherished memories of his family and friends.

I see our souls as travellers, living a variety of lives in order to experience a variety of things. Some of our souls are attuned to music, some to art, some to food, some to warfare, some to athleticism. Each visit changes our soul, refines our viewpoint and gives us more to ponder. That said, a famous Italian chef's soul might come back as a poor Ethiopian mother. She might be born with the talents of a naturally great cook, but her circumstances prevent her from achieving anything more than local notoriety.

I can also see the soul's decision to change it's appetite for experience, as it were. Einsten might have come back as Usain Bolt. That soul may have tired of Physics and instead decided to focus on sprinting.

Other questions to ponder along these lines: What happens when our souls are finished living lives? Is there a set number of lives, or do we just keep coming back for eternity? Is there a point where our soul will just fade away or join the greater Spirit of the universe?

Is each soul an individual or does each soul rejoin the larger community, mixing it's experiences with the whole, with each new soul being a random composite of the souls before it? That would be kind of how Gaia is depicted in the animated Final Fantasy movie. Each living thing has a spirit that comes from Gaia. When that spirit's body dies, it returns to Gaia. When a new life is formed, a small piece of Gaia is sectioned off for the purposes of living that life.

Does time really play a part of it, or are our souls outside of time? Can a soul be reincarnated "backward" in time? When today's Ted Bundy dies, will he be reborn as yesterday's Hitler?

Great thread.

[Attila]

Aitrus

I can also see the soul's decision to change it's appetite for experience, as it were. Einsten might have come back as Usain Bolt. That soul may have tired of Physics and instead decided to focus on sprinting.

Interesting stuff, I often think similarly about what it all means over a period of lifetimes. I usually end up thinking that unless there is an end result the purpose remains innocuous, but then if all things are already known, then maybe the journey/experience is more what its all about.

However this is thinking of it in terms of a grand and long term plan, to the individual it is more immediate. You could get two Einstein’s but only one of them would go on to develop the theory of relativity ~ kinda like twins. In fact as both bodies can have the same qualities, then it may be Einstein’s fate to write the theory, you don’t even need to be like Einstein [after all he wasn’t the cleverest chap], anyone in the time, place and circle [scientific circle] could have achieved it. ..but only he does.

Other questions to ponder along these lines: What happens when our souls are finished living lives? Is there a set number of lives, or do we just keep coming back for eternity? Is there a point where our soul will just fade away or join the greater Spirit of the universe?

Good questions. I like to think we are all joined to that greater spirit and become one with it after death [the original self]. It may be that we are only existent as seemingly separate to that once, or that we can simply come back as many times as we so wish or give it a break for a few thousand years. I don’t really think there can be any rules to the game outside of causality [life].

It would make sense to me if life as the vehicle, was equipped with a soul as the driver, with an innate ability to drive!

To that end you would need to experience as many qualities of life as possible, so that you have some idea at least how to drive the vehicle.

I feel that time is linear in its physical expression, so when we go out of the body and become timeless we can only re-enter at a later date. History and the future not experienced, nor interactive.

[Zylah]

Aitrus, I really like your metaphor of the traveling author. Great way to articulate the concepts in view!

Attila, what you said earlier about being on a fine line between object and subject, what is material and immaterial, makes me think of atomic theory. For me, science is magic explained, and magic is science we have not yet understood.

In this particular discussion, I think I would argue that material vs. immaterial is - in a word - immaterial. Not to be a smartass; what I mean is, when you get down to subatomic particles, you discover that mass and matter are largely illusory concepts in themselves. There is more empty space in even the densest matter than there is mass. What it always comes down to is energy; the energy comes in a great variety of forms and expressions, and can be interacted with by other forms and expressions according to certain principles of (meta)physics, and that is what we call our reality. The solidity of reality is an illusion, strictly speaking.

So the soul is a configuration of particular energies, scientifically speaking. Spiritually, I think it is more than that, but spiritual matters are generally not provable. The ways in which that soul interacts with other souls and other forms of energy is all part of the journey and the learning experience of life.

Ultimately, in a cosmic sense of 'purpose', we're dealing with spirituality, or at least with subjectivity. My point was mainly the thought that occurred to me, that it is in my view a false dichotomy when we separate flesh and spirit, material and immaterial, with a sharp dividing line. I find that the line blurs and fades when you get close to it.

[Attila]

Hi Zylah

when you get down to subatomic particles, you discover that mass and matter are largely illusory concepts in themselves. There is more empty space in even the densest matter than there is mass.

Indeed, it is not my field, but I think of such things simply as relationships and principles having an effect on energy, so you get polarities/forces rather than objects. So yes I agree that solidity is something of an illusion ~ even if it seams terribly solid if you hit your head against a rock.

So the soul is a configuration of particular energies, scientifically speaking. Spiritually, I think it is more than that, but spiritual matters are generally not provable.

Is the soul provable? Ok let me run this by you; what if energy doesn’t exist, there are in fact a mass of qualities/qualia that when interacting form the forces of ‘energy’?

To me reality is an emptiness that is also an everythingness [see my mystic paper thread], there is nothing outside of it to stop the un-manifest from being manifest, so essentially from emptiness you get qualia, and from those and their interactions you get the universe. The journey is all of that happening, but the emptiness is all wise, and so builds to a state where it can be alive and live its story. All the universe and all our atoms are there to support us, they are the vehicles of life.

My point was mainly the thought that occurred to me, that it is in my view a false dichotomy when we separate flesh and spirit, material and immaterial, with a sharp dividing line. I find that the line blurs and fades when you get close to it.

I agree in the main, the reason I slice through it is to get at its guts and find out what we are. Can we not say that there is both a divide and not a divide, when in body I am the body, when that dies or I leave it in a vision, then I am extraneous to that body. The same applies when I am copied, I am not the copied body even if my own is disposed of. Clearly then there is a dichotomy, because you have change and non change, there has to come a point when the former is at odds with the latter, when duality within the transient becomes the dichotomy.

[DaRC]

I've been wondering about whether this TQ is individual or a collective / cauldron / great spirit.
Is it an individual that reincarnates through various lifetimes to garner experience and wisdom towards some transcendental vision?
Or is it part of a collective that breaks off to live an individual life?

There seems to be support in Celtic thought towards both ideas;
the ancient Irish allowed debts to be carried into the after-life which would suggest an individual TQ that reincarnates,
however the Circes of Abred would suggest a more collective TQ approach.
The western philosophy has an underlying meme of individualism whilst eastern philosophy has an underlying collective meme.

Perhaps what this means is that it's a paradox or a quantum TQ; it is both individual and collective at the same time

[Attila]

I've been wondering about whether this TQ is individual or a collective / cauldron / great spirit.
Is it an individual that reincarnates through various lifetimes to garner experience and wisdom towards some transcendental vision?
Or is it part of a collective that breaks off to live an individual life?

Yea I wonder the same, I think it is essentially a single thing [see ‘mystic paper’ thread] - great spirit kinda thing - but it can break of or replicate itself endlessly. I am unsure if there is or even can be a goal or overall vision [it’s ‘the book with no name’], but certainly it would be beneficial for TQ’s to learn as they go, so that they advance, their species advance and they can become evermore effective at driving the vehicle [the body]. You would think there would be something at the end of it all though ~ for TQ’s at least. Perhaps if we think of omniscience then that it would need to be realised so to become wisdom? Then if we look past linear time and see the whole thing as a circle, then the wisdom bought of experience creates the wisdom in the cauldron that first brought about the universe.

the ancient Irish allowed debts to be carried into the after-life which would suggest an individual TQ that reincarnates,

I agree and they seamed to take this as fact, as much as life in this world is.

however the Circes of Abred would suggest a more collective TQ approach.

The un-manifest becomes the manifest, some of which is cast of into oblivion and the divine aspects are carried on into eternity. To me its almost like an engine that creates the divine life [after-life], but also seeks to renew itself on earth in a progressive manner ~ as we progress we get closer and so each incarnation of humanity has more divinity in it, so in short the ‘effort’ becomes less taxing and creates evermore for eternity.

Perhaps what this means is that it's a paradox or a quantum TQ; it is both individual and collective at the same time

Exactly, I agree completely.

[Aitrus]

Then if we look past linear time and see the whole thing as a circle, then the wisdom bought of experience creates the wisdom in the cauldron that first brought about the universe.

If that's the case, then how can we see and measure the increase of that wisdom? Is it in the continued advancement of technology, philisophy or art? Is it measured in the increasing amount of humans living on the planet?

Or is that wisdom kept in that place, never to cross over to physical reality again? This last one would make sense as humans seem to rarely learn from history...

[Attila]

If that's the case, then how can we see and measure the increase of that wisdom? Is it in the continued advancement of technology, philisophy or art? Is it measured in the increasing amount of humans living on the planet?

I think - if I may, that it is simply advancement of what we the soul learns and by that what the universal spirit learns. This may be facilitated by tech and art etc, but once we have learned all we can from tech, it will pass or change. Coincidentally I think our ability to produce it will pass at the same rate [resources will run out etc], its almost as if planets like earth were perfectly designed for this ~ you see what I mean about the circle!

Or is that wisdom kept in that place, never to cross over to physical reality again? This last one would make sense as humans seem to rarely learn from history...

Well we learn on an individual level, the universal spirit learns the collection of that, so the collection is kept in that place. we must remember that 'that place' is also the core of our being as it is everything.

perhaps it is as if history is consumed by it [as history has to exist ~ it cannot not of happened, and yet the past does not exist physically].

We as individuals or groups don’t learn much from history, but we can assume that lessons have to be learned over and over in a mantraic sence. The idea is probably to firmly imprint upon our souls certain long term truths and wisdoms, whilst the short term is filtered out. We have to remember that each and every individual has to ‘experience’ those lessons of history! It is very much a long term project.