attila of nazareth wrote:The afterlife of an aborted Einstein
The second life of an aborted Einstein
NOT A DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION
For me this is another debate about wisdom ~ kind of from a god perspective. How to make an Einstein if he was aborted…
Short question; If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein?
Now most of you wont read even all of this, indeed some will probably reply thinking it a debate about abortion ~ having only read the title, so you will forgive me if I keep it as short as possible.
Q, would a duplicate of you be you?
Firstly I presume there is a transcendental qualia remaining after every aspect of ‘you’ is copied, so if a perfect copy of you was made there would be; [’I’ = self/‘you‘] ‘I’ 1 + body 1 X ‘I’ 2+ body 2. yet the ‘I’ which is you is you and not the copy even though it would think it is you. If you could talk to the copy version of you, then you would know it is not you bla bla… so let just call that the transcendental qualia of youness.
Given that there is a transcendental qualia that is ‘you’, then we may presume it is duplicated as soon as the foetus begins its life.
If not then we have to ‘invent’ some mechanism by which a soul [or spirit or self by any name] may enter the body, when there would be no further causal opportunity for it to do so. Let us try as we can to keep to our friend Mr Occam [Occam’s razor] and keep it to the simplest thing.
If we presume that as the ‘soul’ [let us call it; ‘TQ’ ~ transcendental qualia] is not material even though it is brought into being by living things, then my question is;
What happens to a TQ [soul] once created but the body has died?
Would an aborted foetus grow up in ‘heaven’ [given otherworld] and become the same person it would have become?
Would a copy of Einstein be Einstein? Or would Einstein even become himself?
Let us imagine that the transcendental qualia is Einstein I.e. has also the qualia of who he is. If we put Einstein in a different body, would he still be Einstein? Equally if we put someone else into Einstein’s body, would that someone else become Einstein?
In short; is it about who we are, or is it all about what we inherit [the human form]? Or both?
If Einstein had been aborted as a foetus, would his soul still become that of Einstein.
Would wisdom denote that he must be, if so how?
If the soul has been made to be smart in the current life time, then it's possible that it would still even in the other world.
Now if there was a duplicate of me that would be coming from the same body, wouldn't it be called a identical twin? Since a twin will almost doing the same thing the other half is doing in physical terms. Yet if it's the I that is the you, would there be two souls instead of one controlling a body?
as far as the TQ goes, yes i believe it would be the same Einstein. But, if we are talking about an Einstein TQ in another body, then we are forgetting the outside influences that can determine a persons identity. Parents, friends, relatives, family friends, everyone and everything including the environment the person is raised in can determine the outcome of someones identity. Even complete strangers can completely change a person. If we had placed the Ein TQ in the same body, but in a different place, would he have been the same person?
I wasn’t thinking along the lines of the ‘Nature vs. Nurture argument’, for me the TQ gets in the vehicle [human body] or is born within it, and it then operates according to the functions of a machine. When you get in a car you can do what cars can do. Though I think it’s a little more flexible than a rigid machine and we have many other qualia of mind which all interact with the body and brain. The brain maybe largely causal, but there is uncertainty and improbability which breaks the causal chain. As I see it the TQ largely goes along with the causal chain but can stop and think hey no I don’t want to do this, or I do want to change that etc. in short, the TQ is equally a causal factor as any other.
I have no evidence, and I doubt anyone really would, since this is not one of those questions that lends itself to science to be addressed. It's a philosophical issue. However, I believe that if Einstein were aborted, or stillborn, or the victim of SIDS, or whatever disaster we can impute, the TQ remains what it was before the attempted entry to this realm. The soul then has to re-enter when the opportunity is granted; it will never be exactly the same, because so many of the external factors will by necessity be different. However, nothing of the essential journey is lost, because the soul and the journey trump the details of one lifetime's particular existence.
The other aspect is life opportunities. Even allowing for elements of the "soul spark" if you don't have the right opportunities presented then the final outcome changes
The thing is that whilst you might like to consider us a machine - we're more of an ecosystem or symbiont, one where it's none too certain whether we're there for the bacteria / symbiotic creatures or vice versa.
So you would have to argue that all the bacteria etc... were the same in the body as well.
More specifically Joe Haldeman considers it in the Forever War series and Data in Star Trek
I can also see the soul's decision to change it's appetite for experience, as it were. Einsten might have come back as Usain Bolt. That soul may have tired of Physics and instead decided to focus on sprinting.
Other questions to ponder along these lines: What happens when our souls are finished living lives? Is there a set number of lives, or do we just keep coming back for eternity? Is there a point where our soul will just fade away or join the greater Spirit of the universe?
when you get down to subatomic particles, you discover that mass and matter are largely illusory concepts in themselves. There is more empty space in even the densest matter than there is mass.
So the soul is a configuration of particular energies, scientifically speaking. Spiritually, I think it is more than that, but spiritual matters are generally not provable.
My point was mainly the thought that occurred to me, that it is in my view a false dichotomy when we separate flesh and spirit, material and immaterial, with a sharp dividing line. I find that the line blurs and fades when you get close to it.
I've been wondering about whether this TQ is individual or a collective / cauldron / great spirit.
Is it an individual that reincarnates through various lifetimes to garner experience and wisdom towards some transcendental vision?
Or is it part of a collective that breaks off to live an individual life?
the ancient Irish allowed debts to be carried into the after-life which would suggest an individual TQ that reincarnates,
however the Circes of Abred would suggest a more collective TQ approach.
Perhaps what this means is that it's a paradox or a quantum TQ; it is both individual and collective at the same time
Attila wrote:Then if we look past linear time and see the whole thing as a circle, then the wisdom bought of experience creates the wisdom in the cauldron that first brought about the universe.
If that's the case, then how can we see and measure the increase of that wisdom? Is it in the continued advancement of technology, philisophy or art? Is it measured in the increasing amount of humans living on the planet?
Or is that wisdom kept in that place, never to cross over to physical reality again? This last one would make sense as humans seem to rarely learn from history...
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