Does the nature part of Druidry matter?

[Merlyn]

From the driver's seat now, its easy to point to technology. But this age of technology being our own, hasn't been the case very long.
Unless of course we think the iron age is technology. We can see farming in the wild as a natural process. Birds spread seeds as well as plants. We just make it in neat rows, gerrymander the genetics and make grocery stores.

The one thing that separates us most is our creation of money, laws, written and oral language, a way of life as interdependent as it is liberating from nature.
I don't see this as what I would define as technology today.

It is sobering to see the monuments made thousands of years ago, to realize back then that people were able to work in stone as well or even better than we do now.
It is hard to grasp that in the past, our planet had a much different atmosphere, possibly oxygen rich by comparison to today. Game was abundant, plants robust.
No way we could live in the wild now as we have destroyed much of it. Living off the land meant not living very long, and of our motivational changes, longevity is perhaps one of the strongest.

Getting back to nature, in earnest, means letting go of a lot. I guess we could label everything from farming, domesticating animals, language, society, currency, and so on as "technology". But that is a fairly broad stroke for that one word IMO. Being void of claws and agility, strength and instinct to the degree that we are forces us to adapt, where animals really cannot.

All of this isn't really the rhythm we seem in druidry. Its not really so much going to live in a yurt as the extreme. I see it as more important to bring back the natural cycles, feel and know the reasons we are affected by natural life and the planets and stars. Be in touch and aware, is key to understanding our needs and ways. Why do we feel charitable in the fall? Anxious in the winter? Why are we energized during the full moon? and what makes us want to connect and even mate in the spring?

Our feelings are like tides of emotion, and some connect to the ocean while others connect to the wild hills and mountains. It is these things which are the nature of druidry.
How we evolved and the core motivations remind me of the primal and lower realms, those parts of spirit and life which are vivid, no matter how civilized we may think we are.

In druidry, I see our need to recognize and consciously make our life the way to express, openly admit our deeper self into creative good.
This is unique and different from serving a god, in doing so without the need for judgement. Just doing it anyway, not needing a reason like "going to heaven" or judgement day.

This goodness in the heart might be an evolved way, but we can see it in the realms, animals and all, just as we see predatory and even war like ways.
In druidry it matters, freestyle. Kind of like a dance.

[Corwen]

He has a soul too, just like anything else alive, so he thinks.

I can show you living, intelligent, relating, conscious, unique beings worthy of love and respect. Yes they are made of matter, but isn't that a miracle in itself, how matter can become conscious, unique, relating and intelligent?

Can you show me a soul? And if you did, why would that make me love and respect beings more? I might respect them less, knowing I can kill them and harm them with impunity, their eternal welfare being assured?

[Merlyn]

Can you show me a soul?

We are indeed each, one face of the collective soul. The idea that we embody separate souls is perhaps the failing of mankind as a race.
I see the soul of life all around me. And the many forms it creates in the energy and matter. "I am another you".

Let us not miss the forest for the trees, as our opportunity to be a part of life is but a moment.
We do indeed feel as if we are separate at times, unable to understand the diversity, and so we "think" we have a soul,

He has a soul too, just like anything else alive, so he thinks

The mind is but a feeble excuse for reason. It is our body that really holds the knowledge.

How often do we feel in our gut, our heart, what we cannot explain in our minds? How often have we reasoned this away only to find our mind was far from correct?
This is indeed a part of how the nature of druidry seeks to reconnect us with nature, our own human nature.

isn't that a miracle in itself, how matter can become conscious, unique, relating and intelligent?

As does the ocean, the air, the earth and all that is the universe.

[Attila]

Attilla, humans have more advanced technology, but we are not more advanced in many other ways so unless you precis your comment by saying, Technologically humans are the most advanced life form, then your comment is open to misinterpretation. In all sorts of other areas other lifeforms have the edge. Humans are not very advanced at photosynthesis, for example.

I’ll repeat this from earlier and challenge all comers to define advancement, in a way that makes humans equally so or less advanced than anything else on this earth [except the earth itself perhaps lols]

how would you define advancement? I would think of it in terms of; most universally dextrous, can do more things, can think [at all] more, can express more, can perceive more, can invent more, can understand its environment more [does a germ understand a computer] etc.
Now tell me what you think advancement means!!!

Even if we were to agree that humans were more advanced, why should that privilege humans morally or spiritually at all over other forms of life.

I agree it should not! We have a duty to the earth, to divinity and our descendants, and that duty negates the use of our advancement to disrespect the earth and all things. Advancement does not equal one-gunmanship and the defilement of supposed lessers.

spirit is universal is it not, and that makes us part of the expression, nothing more, nothing less. ...and everything else are that equally too, it is not just humans that have souls.

[Corwen]

Attilla, we are going round in circles, so short of something new to talk about this will be my last post on this thread.

Re Advancement. Yes we are obviously more capable than some other species in certain areas, like deductive reasoning and building technology. In other areas we are less capable, like running (cheetah?), climbing (lemur?), singing (humpback whale?), making food from light (plants?), going for years without eating (tics?), need I go on? Being advanced in one area doesn't make you in any measurable way more 'evolved', or more valuable, or more cosmic, or more important, or more spiritual. Ultimately time tests how well you are adapted to your niche in times of stability, and how readily you can adapt in times of change, not how 'advanced' you are at any particular task.

Re Souls. Show me one. When you do, I will believe they exist. Until then I will treat you as rather misguided to assume the existence of something invisible just because other people have said it exists. Do you also believe in unicorns and pegasi? If you are using the word in such a way that a neutral word could be substituted, like consciousness or matter/energy (stuff), or personhood, then I recommend you use the neutral term to avoid confusion and facilitate communication.

Re Privilege and duty. Now you say we have no privilege or right to do with other species what we will, yet earlier you characterised other forms of life as " improperly formed", "incarcerated in the world", and that in comparison humans have "a greater level of transcendence [via subjectivity] and brings us nearer to universal spirit." This would seem to reveal a somewhat arrogant view of humanity's relationship to other sorts of (other than human) person, and the relationship of other-than-human-persons to the Divine/Great Mystery. I'd like to remind you that the views you hold originate in dualistic religions like Christianity, Islam, and originally most likely Zoroastrianism (and most recently Cartesian dualism) which view matter and spirit as separate and matter as, at best, imperfect and at worst positively evil and to be escaped from. I hardly need to describe the consequences of this viewpoint for the planet, but we live in a world largely shaped by this worldview.

[treegod]

Like what you said Corwen.

Humans may be more "developed" in some areas and less in others. And we are certainly more complex than many species, certainly neurologically. And these might be called "advanced". I can see reasons for that.

I'd also say we aren't dominant or most important. Bacteria (and similar) are the most dominant and important organisms, they are the biological "bedrock" upon which all other organisms depend. Humans are an added bonus, a nice "experiment" but unnecessary (and even detrimental) to the continuing of life on Earth.


Progressed might be a useful word to use. It describes how far we've come in historical times. But thinking about it we could say that all existing species have progressed the same, that is we haven't gone extinct yet. Poor dinosaurs are out of it though, have been stopped short in their progression, they're not going anywhere now...

I think the most appropriate application of the word advanced is perhaps in relation to sprints and other races. Evolution isn't a race(!) as far as I know.

And if it was, what's the finish line?

[Attila]

Evolution isn't a race(!) as far as I know.
And if it was, what's the finish line?

Its an expression of ceugant, which being the ‘divine infinity’ wants to stretch in all manners and directions, this expression is the universe [and maybe much more] and life, the most advanced form of that expression so far on earth is man. There is no finish line, it is not all linear.



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Re Advancement. Yes we are obviously more capable than some other species in certain areas, like deductive reasoning and building technology. In other areas we are less capable, like running (cheetah?), climbing (lemur?), singing (humpback whale?), making food from light (plants?), going for years without eating (tics?), need I go on?

Yes do go-on! ...so far you have describe singular things that speices can do better than us, neglecting the fact that we can go to the moon ~ travelling very fast, we can think and contemplate all this stuff etc. the solution is simple, take any non human thing, add up all it can do then compare. It is the entire collection of abilities that counts, then imagine that in the context of the expression of ceugant, thence that the entire expression is what reality is all about, evolution n all.

Re Souls. Show me one. When you do, I will believe they exist.

You exist and that 'you' is the soul! Show me that you don’t exist and I will concede that mind doesn’t exist and that we are mechanistic organic robots! Now imagine your mind out of body ~ a mind in a void, and ask what is its ‘body’* then, you see mind, if existent must also have form [an astral body or mental body] and volume etc [‘body’*] and this is what I would call the soul.

Go ahead and prove to me that electro-magnetism is conscious, if you do then explain why the whole of energy is not conscious, you have one or the other, consciousness is either within energy or it is a thing in and of itself!

Now you say we have no privilege or right to do with other species what we will, yet earlier you characterised other forms of life as " improperly formed",

I do think that less dextrous forms look awkward, and by ‘improperly formed’ I meant it in the context of the universal expression, it was more an analogy to that than some basis for prejudice. You may be right in what you said about the relationship of non human life and divinity, this is something I have considered quite considerably. I have often said in many other threads that all life [as far as I can tell] has grey or what I call silver spirits as part of their constitution [see the druidic encyclopaedia thread for example], and how many threads have I done reducing difference to zero? I seam to remember most people arguing against this position too. There are different perspectives, on the one hand I see a spiritual equality and on the other the universal expression of ceugant, this seams to imply an hierarchy of souls moving from base forms to more complex forms, first a spirit/soul must learn to ride a bike before it can drive a car. None of this implies a prejudice because there is a balance.

My spirituality does not come from ‘religions like Christianity, Islam, and originally most likely Zoroastrianism’ although I expect some aspects have found their way into the system, its virtually impossible for that to be not so. I was brought up as an atheist then moved into Buddhism and Hinduism ~ which do have spiritual hierarchies [karma] so they are the more likely source.

As I say I have been wondering about all of this, and druidic transmigration seams to take all forms as equal, so maybe I have it wrong and there is no spiritual hierarchy. In terms of expression though I don’t see how there cannot be a progression, humans can change into/occupy animals but they cannot do the same, or at least I havent seen it ~ if they could they would jump ship whenever they see a predator coming, but that doesnt happen. I am open to the idea though.

[Merlyn]

Humans are certainly the most dangerous things on the planet now, and if that is evolution...technology...superior...

Well, my great great great great grandpa left a will, and some pictures..
Hopefully some advice...

Blessings of the waxing moon,

[treegod]

Evolution isn't a race(!) as far as I know.
And if it was, what's the finish line?

Its an expression of ceugant, which being the ‘divine infinity’ wants to stretch in all manners and directions, this expression is the universe [and maybe much more] and life, the most advanced form of that expression so far on earth is man. There is no finish line, it is not all linear.

That I can understand. If Ceugant is the "Light of Consciousness", then it most certainly "glows" brighter within us than most other things on this planet. But I still think humanity as a whole isn't proving itself to be more advanced in this way. If we were advanced in this way we would be reaking so much damage to the Earth and each other as we are now. But, out of most species on Earth that we have the greatest potential to express Ceugant in a more "pure" form.

But still, using the word advanced is a little confusing as it implies linearity, does it not?

[Attila]

That I can understand. If Ceugant is the "Light of Consciousness", then it most certainly "glows" brighter within us than most other things on this planet. But I still think humanity as a whole isn't proving itself to be more advanced in this way. If we were advanced in this way we would be reaking so much damage to the Earth and each other as we are now. But, out of most species on Earth that we have the greatest potential to express Ceugant in a more "pure" form.

I think all the processes humanity go through are part of the universal expression, the light - if you will, may be undermined by capitalist materialism [and general materialism] but I am hoping its just a phase, possibly one that will wane very soon. Druidry is part of the reaction to that imho, and maybe some will see de-capitalism as anti-advancement but I don’t.

Advancement can mean many things, and for humans to become more advance we need to be more universal and hence more tuned in to nature and our responsibilities.

[treegod]

Recently a friend on facebook said that cultural relativism is an intellectual cop out. I'm inclined to agree, there are some things I can't see as being particularily human, like the way resources are being used... I mean misused!

There needs to be an advanced evolution of ethics and values, particularily with the power we have at our disposal. Machiavelli was less advanced than Gandhi (even if it is a cliché). Or rather, as humans, their level of advancement was the same, it was the way they thought that marks their advancement. One used his innate potential better than the other and the other systemised the corruption of his humanity, imo.

Well, like I mentioned earlier, evolution happened to us unconsciously, but now we are conscious of it we have the opportunity, nay responsibility (or response-ability!), to make it a conscious process, to guide it in our choices, individual and collective, and not just let it passively happen to us.

[Attila]

Yea I agree, e.g. it seams absurd that we make such good containers for things and only use them once, sure they get recycled sometimes but a lot is lost in the process, yet all we need to do is go back to markets and to supply our own reusable containers. Basically there are loads of things we can do without to much effort, the system must change to facilitate that.