Questioning Science

[Dendrias]

Did You know that in German, humanities are, by name, classified under the sciences? You don't study "literature" (that would be plain reading books in German), but "literature-science", "linguistics" can be calles "language-science".
This wound beginning I wanted to lead to a slight diversion off-topic.

The Bible mentions that 1000 years is a day to God. 2 Peter 3:8 (New International Version) "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day ". But this is debateable with many Bible Scholars.

If you have a close look at the wording of god's words, you would surely detect that a day is not 1000 years to god, but that it is like that. Similarity is not identity. Studying literature doesn't mean someone has to throw his mind into the litter - literally reading the bible has to be correct literally! In other terms: You can be a skeptic in reading, interpreting (and believing to understand), as well.

I didn't take time to read all three pages, though I can remember the first parts of the thread. Once upon a time I read that Crowley wanted to have religion with the methods of science, or somewhat like that. Might that be a way?

[Oneonine]

Maybe god was being patronising and meant "a very large number" when a thousand was mentioned.

[DJ Droood]

Maybe god was being patronising and meant "a very large number" when a thousand was mentioned.

Possibly..or maybe He was eating something when He was giving dictation and it came out funny..or maybe Moses was distracted and thinking about something else and chisled out the wrong word.

[Dendrias]

I demand that the moderators remove the above post as inflammatory and offensive to either Moses or a person called God, or both of them.

My dear DJ Droood, the New International Version, called "NIVy" by firm believers, was first published in 1973 (new testament) - it's important that it was the new testament that was published by that time, because the quotation is taken out of the new testament. Moses is supposed to have died by 1973 and computers as well as pen and paper have been invented and in use for a decade ... nobody had to chisel anything into anything at that time any more. Furthermore, Moses has no main role in the new testament.

You have to be correct and skeptical about every fact! At least in the Skeptic's Forum.

Mind 2 Peter 8:3: "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires."
If You are, DJ Droood, the scoffer scoffing around, the last days have come! But don't worry, they are like a thousand years - You have time to procreate often times.

[Dendrias]

This was not meant to be offensive or ridiculing anyone or anything.

[DJ Droood]

This was not meant to be offensive or ridiculing anyone or anything.

It would be hard to imagine a poster being *more* offensive or ridiculous than the subject matter itself, so I think you are safe.

[Huathe]

DJ. I don't exactly what message you are trying to send with the Jesus and dinosaur image but I like it. It's a fact dinosaurs existed and have to fit in somewhere. I don't intend to elaborate.

[Merlyn]

It is as much a good reason to question science as it is to question religion.
Difference is that science progresses, scraps the old ways and moves ahead. (That is good or bad depending on the view)
In this sense, druidry might be the science of religious spirituality..

[DJ Droood]

In this sense, druidry might be the science of religious spirituality..

Ahhh..yes..I agree with that..I think of druidry as the "science" of spirituality...and the spirituality inherent in looking for the truth...and by truth I mean shared truth..something all of us could experience to be true. For instance, sunrises are spiritually enriching...that is something we can, and most of us have, tested and found to be true.

And I think in times past..the Neolithic henge builders and the druids who came after them and the priests after them were probably spiritual scientists..the separation hadn't happened. And I think you are right, Merlyn..there was a split and science kept advancing as a way to explore truth (an inherently spiritual task), but religions seem to have stagnated. I think Darwin was the turning point.

[DJ Droood]

DJ. I don't exactly what message you are trying to send with the Jesus and dinosaur image but I like it.

Hawthorn "raptor jesus" is a bizarre underground joke meme...a series of "homemade" illustrations with that loose theme...some of them tickle my funny bone....I thought that one pointed out the paradoxical nature of mixing modern religious and scientific beliefs.

[treegod]

Science= empirical truth

Spirituality= experiential truth

???

[Explorer]

It is as much a good reason to question science as it is to question religion.
Difference is that science progresses, scraps the old ways and moves ahead. (That is good or bad depending on the view)
In this sense, druidry might be the science of religious spirituality..

I think that you are now talking about the extreme ends of it, not about the essentials.
At the extreme end of 'scientific progress' you find immoral and meaningless things like nuclear bombs and a screwed up ecosystem.
At the extreme end of religion you find fundamentalist religions that cause ignorance and suffering. (with the 'holy bible' as the ultimate monument to human stupidity and corruption as far as I'm concerned, that book caused more violence, suffering and bloodshed than anything else).
But these are the extremes of science and religion.

But in a lightweight essential way science itself is simply an (objective) method of investigating the world around us, a mental tool.
And religion itself is simply a way to find meaning in life, perhaps a subjective method of investigating the world around us, but also a mental tool.
They can be both valid and powerful, especially if you use both lenses to look at the same issues.
But it all depends how we as people approach that.

I think druidry is a good approach in that sense.
With its goals to reconcile these opposites into something wiser and more beneficial, and with its methods of drinking both from the well of the spirit (religion?) and the well of the senses (science?). (symbolised by the Well of Segais).

[Fox of the Oaks]

But in a lightweight essential way science itself is simply an (objective) method of investigating the world around us, a mental tool.
And religion itself is simply a way to find meaning in life, perhaps a subjective method of investigating the world around us, but also a mental tool.
They can be both valid and powerful, especially if you use both lenses to look at the same issues.
But it all depends how we as people approach that.

I think druidry is a good approach in that sense.
With its goals to reconcile these opposites into something wiser and more beneficial

Thankyou Nico. I am happy to see others here have a constructive vision towards such things.

Treegod, I also appreciate your idea - (about empirical and experiential truth) - I can see how these two can fit together well into a more well-rounded approach to existence.

I for one can appreciate this integrative and practical approach of applying each paradigm to it's appropriate place in a larger 'system'.

I also wanted to apologize for my previous post a few pages back. Having seen the topic I launched rather wildly into framing my opinions all over the page, without even considering the intent behind this particular forum. Having realised my own foolishness of not really providing any evidence from another recognised source, I paraded around like a swashbuckling zealot barbarian ... So I now will make sure that if I post again on this forum, I will behave myself more.

I can only learn...

[Heddwen]

It's a difficult one and I'm not sure that it helps personal development trying to find a solid scientifically proven rationale for everything. It's very difficult when you factor in bias and contradiction, you can find a piece of research that comes up with one thing and then another that says the complete opposite this doesn't mean that either are credible.If we found a scientific rationale for everything where would things like magick lie? There are some things that we can't explain (well, at the moment) and we never will...

As druids should we seek scientific hard facts or take a leap of faith to believe. Surely we need some sort of belief in the spiritual to undertake the exercises, meditations and rituals outlined in the gwersi. Otherwise, what would be the point of doing them? IMO it would be more meaningful. By this I mean a spiritual framework such as all religeons or none (just general belief in the spiritual) as I am aware that OBOD is open to all paths. If we questioned the science behind all this then where would we be? or perhaps it's a good thing

Personally, I think that there's a place for academic discussion and spiritual dialogue within druidry. I certainly could follow druidry without honouring a spiritual element and I'm interested in the facts.

[DJ Droood]

As druids should we seek scr everything where would things like magick lie? There are some things that we can't explain (well, at the moment) and we never will...ientific hard facts or take a leap of faith to believe. Surely we need some sort of belief in the spiritual to undertake the exercises, meditations and rituals outlined in the gwersi. Otherwise, what would be the point of doing them?

You are using "spiritual" and "supernatural" interchangeably, and I don't see them as the same at all. I found that my druid spirituality blossomed when I finally gave up the last trappings of "gods" and "fairies"...even using them metaphorically became an unnecessary glaze of silliness standing between myself and the wonders of the universe. I am comfortable seeing the sun as the sun and the changing seasons as the changing seasons and harvest time as harvest time....I don't feel a need to superimpose poorly translated children's stories over top to "make it make sense". I never found my need to live a truthful spirituality was a hinderance to getting benefit from the OBOD course, but I guess results will vary.

[Merlyn]

I too rather boiled things down, lost the desire to have so many gods and such represent each and every aspect of experience.

I see druidry as an evolution of spiritual thought. Scientific in this way.

So... back on topic, questioning science.

Our sacred Salmon of wisdom is now facing the wisdom of salmon.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/14/m ... tml?hpt=C2

I often reflect on the eating of salmon..being all druid & stuff
(Frankenfish)

The fish, an Atlantic salmon, contains growth hormone from a Pacific species, the Chinook salmon, as well as genetic material from another species, the ocean pout, that causes the "transgenic" salmon to grow at twice the normal speed. The claim made by its developer, AquaBounty Technologies, is that this altered fish is as safe to consume as farmed Atlantic salmon. This argument doesn't convince much, since farmed salmon aren't really that safe to eat. They have been found to have higher concentrations of polychlorinated biphenyls than wild salmon, which gets into their bodies from the concentrated fish meal used to create their feed. AquaBounty also plans to sell the eggs of its fish to fish farms.

The descriptions in this article really screw with my inner grove and the sacred well, hazel nuts and of course: the salmon.

As we have learned over time, farmed Atlantic salmon is horrible for the environment. The fish are grown in overcrowded, open-net pens in the ocean, placing an unnatural stress on the surrounding ocean environment as well as on the fish themselves.

In those conditions it becomes necessary to use antibiotics on an already unstable fish in order to control bacterial infections and other diseases -- and to protect the investment of carnivorous fish farming. The byproducts of all this -- a wonderful stew of feces, unconsumed fish food and dead fish called, sweetly, "effluent" -- create a suffocating blanket that spreads across the ocean floor, resulting in a massive dead zone surrounding the farming area. It kills clams, oysters, eel grasses -- where young fish feed and grow -- and more.

So in this case... I have to question science

Merlyn

[Heddwen]

So do I Merlyn, it saddens me

[Explorer]

So in this case... I have to question science

Merlyn, can you explain what you exactly mean with "science"?

[DJ Droood]

So in this case... I have to question science

That is the essence of what science is...questioning....antithetical to modern religion, which is "believing" and "submitting" and "having faith".

Science is the druid's golden sickle

[Frog]

Science is the druid's golden sickle

I've got two ... does that mean I have a Druid's Golden Bisickle???

thank you thank you.. I'm here all week...