Reclamation of the idea of "Faith"

[wolf560]

In a close topic thread, the word "Faith" has been somewhat under scrutiny.

Faith is not believing in the Christian belief or a single Deity spawned from Abraham.

For me, "Faith" is what it is by definition; a belief not necessarily supported by proof.

I can offer no proof that my rituals do anything more than act as a gathering of like minded individuals, yet I continue to gather with them.
I can offer no proof that my belief in three kindreds are reality, yet I feel that they do.
I can offer no proof that my belief in being as truthful in my words is a benefit to society, yet I will never fall away from that feeling.

I have "Faith" and that faith is in myself and my deeds and accomplishments.

Your thoughts?

[Dendrias]

My question:

How are Your sentences different from "I believe", "I assume" or "I think"?

This is not intended to be a criticising question, as English is not my mother-tongue. It could, perhaps, help You to mark the difference. By defining what You're really thinking.

[cat]

ok seeing as the mods haven't moved this thead across im pasteing what iv'e already written

humm

what is faith?

The being on the right path thing i find quiet negative! cause if i'm /we are on the right path that means that they are wrong path.
So therefore a confict of ideas (i'm right your wrong we do the right thing you do it wrong ect )
I like to think in terms of many paths lead to the same destination.
Or there are many ways up the same mountain.

is that Faith

[cat]

ok this is probably out of context now so

Faith = God ?

In my opionon weather you belive in gods godeses devine beinges ect can mean you have faith but the word faith on its own means little it depends on the context its used in and the person saying it.

I have faith in myself when i used to rock climb is that not faith.

faith=ablity?
faith=the void

I see faith as a word which determins what decide to belive in be that regiously, scientifically or logically. some things cant be explained thus faith can sometime try too it's just how its applied that makes the diffrence. I sit on the fence

[wolf560]

How are Your sentences different from "I believe", "I assume" or "I think"?

They are not different,

My point is that "Faith" is simply an opinion (sometimes individual and sometimes from a multitude) and not a "Universal Truth". My Faith is simply mine and mine alone. I do not utter it to have others follow me or even agree.

But to link "Faith" with any kind of "Religion" is also a mistake I believe (there goes my 'Faith' again) since everyone deserves the right to believe whatever they like.

Again, faith by description is the belief without proof in something...

[wolf560]

The being on the right path thing i find quiet negative!

I guess I see nothing negative about anyone's 'Path' being "Right"...

I am convinced that I am currently on the "Right Path" and my "Faith" in my choice is unwavering. I offer no proof and require none since it is my own path and no one else's.
(I actually have quite a bit of proof, but that is another story altogether).

I do not have to seek others approval nor do I wish to curry followers to my chosen path for it is my 'Path' and mine alone. If I walk it alone, I am content in my solitude.

My choice of "Path" should not be seen as a negation of your choice or anyone else's.

Perhaps the measure of "Faith" is the ability to continue what you are doing without seeking the approval of any others nearby. The greater measure of which would then be the ability to not force others upon your "Path" as a measure of your validation.

My validation is simple; I am content with my choices... and I require nothing more.

Everyone should be comfortable in their 'Path' and fear no outside rejection either.

[DJ Droood]

I could, I suppose, have faith in my skills as one of the world's top brain surgeons...my "personal truth" would be laughably worthless, however, in the face of reality. People can say whatever they want and believe whatever they want, and hide behind a smoke screen of subjectivity and delusion and reductio ad absurdum , if they don't value the opinion of the world at large. I suppose people like this could be seen as mostly harmless and should be left alone. Unfortunately, many of these folks seem to want to run for office, attack human rights and poison children's minds with their "truth", (not to mention fly planes into buildings) so those are the only one's that really worry me. Otherwise, fill yer boots with your faith in "your" truth, I say..

[cat]

[quote="cat"]ok seeing as the mods haven't moved this thead across im pasteing what iv'e already written

humm

what is faith?

The being on the right path thing i find quiet negative! cause if i'm /we are on the right path that means that they are wrong path.

is that logical..

ok so i put the exclmation mark in the wrong place. sorry deslixic

what i'm trying to say is that i don't like the term right. as in the opposit of wrong.

not in your or my right (as in human right)to faith.
i've been taken out of context i knew it would
the trouble i have with the right wrong thing is that as history shows faith (religon) has been used by man to his own territoral ends ie there not like us kill em,(war).

I probably rattling a few cages here but there you go.

I have no intention to deny anyone their faith and hope that is the attitude that others would show to me.

[wolf560]

People can say... and believe whatever they want... unfortunately, many of these folks seem to want to run for office, attack human rights and poison children's minds with their "truth", (not to mention fly planes into buildings)... those are the one's that really worry me.

You are right, and perhaps there is some danger in "Faith" (especially in the Middle East where it takes on a whole new depth of conviction and danger). After seeing the blind faith and its effects on the people there is some validity to your points.

Perhaps we can differentiate by saying that for some there is "Faith" and for others it may be "Blind Faith"... and perhaps there is also "Good Faith"...

Faith- the belief in something without proof to the contrary
Blind Faith- the belief in something DESPITE of all proof to the contrary
Good Faith- the belief in something BECAUSE of some proof to the point

In my case, I believe that I have at least SOME proof to the point rather than any proof to the contrary.... so it at least is not by definition 'Blind Faith'.

[DJ Droood]

and perhaps there is also "Good Faith"...

Well, that would have to be *my* faith then..the other guy's faith is stupid!

All I can say is truth is a unifying force..the truth off gravity is the same for me as it is for Osama. Nobody ever kills for truth, because it is self-evident...only faith.

[wolf560]

...what i'm trying to say is that i don't like the term right. as in the opposit of wrong...

This actually goes back to "Truth" and "Right" versus maybe "Opinion" and "Wrong".

I prefer the original viewpoint of Plato and his Socratic Dialogues with the method of the "dialectic". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

It is the concept that two people of differing views can carry on a discourse with the intent of agreeing to a merging greater "Truth". This is in stark opposition to "Debate" which is to talk with the goal of conversion or "Rhetoric" which is to talk to others without wanting to elicit a response.

[cat]

so can you have faith without religon?

good/bad
left/right
wrong/right

who determins these things is my point.

i think more clarity is wanted here see with one is the other opposite so better words are needed to avoid conflict.

good the oposit of bad right? please define you use of good?

surly proven faith or truth =

P
..
the belief in something BECAUSE of some proof to the point

'.

hmm food for though

[wolf560]

Nobody ever kills for truth...only faith.

Yes, its my theory that people are willing to do that because they are actually afraid that they might be wrong about their "Faith".... and who could possibly admit that they were "Wrong" about their "Faith"

I spent the last eight years over in the Middle East. The amount of "Faith" they placed in things was truly astounding sometimes.... I asked my Muslim workers who they thought piloted the planes into the World Trade Towers they replied "Israeli Commando's". Nothing I said could convince them that it was Islamic Terrorists.... they finally told me that "there is no such thing as Islamic terrorists, it is forbidden by the Quran". Amazing the power of "Al-Jazeera" and pure "Blind Faith"....

So yes, "Faith" can bend peoples minds, opinions, and actions into a whole new "Truth".
That "Truth" can be benign or very very harmful to others around them

Suffice it to say that I have a whole new viewpoint on both my faith and theirs.

[cat]

Nobody ever kills for truth...only faith.

I they finally told me that "there is no such thing as Islamic terrorists, it is forbidden by the Quran". Amazing the power of "Al-Jazeera" and pure "Blind Faith"....

they are telling the truth here the Quran fobids

do you have any muslim islamic friends?

yup power to distort things its amazing what can be warped

what is the diffrence between Al Jazeera and Islam please give your answer as have my own but would like to know yours befor continuing in this Discussion.

[wolf560]

so can you have faith without religion?
good/bad ... left/right ... wrong/right

Yes, religion is organized with multiple followers of the same faith.

Social conventions define good-bad, left-right, wrong-right.
"Sinister" is simply the Latin word for "left" and actually meant 'often unused hand'.
"Dexter" is "right" in the same context but simply meant that it was the 'normal hand'

Wrong and Right can be ambiguous or very outward depending upon the topic.
"Blood Sacrifices are Wrong"... very few would disagree with that statement.

.... and those that might disagree with that statement are not welcome in my Nemeton....

[cat]

ok wolf

there is a troll under the bridge which country am i talking about here.


I guess the fact that you have served in confliict means you won't answer my islam al jezeera question

pity realy there are no admins about

so i leave this disscution on faith to the other Druids in our mists

er this has been discussed befor as you know as you read the first post in the other thread right?

[wolf560]

... no such thing as Islamic terrorists, it is forbidden by the Quran"...do you have any muslim islamic friends?

Yes, I still have a great many Islamic friends almost all of which are Muslim.
Only a median percentage of them believe the Israelis did it. The others will never openly discuss the topic and would never dream of disagreeing except privately with a non-Muslim.

The simple fact is that everyone has opinions that may or may not reflect the "Truth".

The simple facts of what is happening over there are hard to describe without writing a book.
Those poor mixed up individuals living just above poverty level with often less than a sixth grade education should not be examples of "Faith", or "Belief".

[wolf560]

ok wolf ...I guess the fact that you have served in confliict means you won't answer my islam al jezeera question...pity realy there are no admins about...

Not sure about the "Admins" quote, I have tried to be even-toned

Al Jazeera is a TV News program with a definite Arabic-Muslim-Inflammatory bent to most of its broadcasts. they publicly say they are the "other side of the story" but often times they are the instigator of some of the violence.

I have served in the conflict and lost a lot of friends there; both Muslim and otherwise.
I would gladly go back there again because I know I can still do "some good" over there.

[cat]

faith

do you see my earlier point about faith

ok we have moved from a discussion about faith to a discussion about belife and truth

also we are discussin this in too narrow a terms

in my opion and its fatalistic .the trouble with the human race is we like to fight and we are territoral im afraid to say that this probably is the reason behind a lot of conflicts just we use a coat of gloss to justify it. sweeping may be but possibley an ounce of truth.

er starting to sound like a prayer here lol

[DJ Droood]

I think I am ultimately drawn to rationalism because it is the lazy position..you don't have to work very hard at it, if at all...you don't even have to be aware of it...Evolution, for instance, works for Kentucky preachers and politicians ( and non-Islamic suicide bombers) in the same way it works for Richard Dawkins..."opinion" doesn't really matter....just transitory parlor discussions in the long view.

Maintaining "personal truth" and "supernatural facts" is like a hamster constantly running on a wheel..working hard and getting nowhere, too afraid to stop. It requires constant hard work, not to mention the occasional witch burning and war.

I feel tired just thinking about it!