Druidry to be classed as religion by Charity Commission

[Jake]

ummmm..Kentucky?

Clicking randomly through the more than 70 "adult" and "family" pagan groups in Kentucky listed on WitchVox, I found eleven websites of legally incorporated pagan churches and/or legally ordained pagan clergy folk in the state. Though they range from the got-it-together to the clearly pathetic, all attained said legal status prior to today's announcement from the UK.

And thirty-nine ordained pagan ministers are listed here: http://www.witchvox.com/vn/cl/usky_cl.html



(Edited to remove the 11 websites. They don't pay me enough to promote them like that. )

[Dendrias]

What the "legal" part in

legally incorporated pagan churches

,

legally ordained pagan clergy folk

and

legal status

?
Does it mean that ordination is somehow legally supervised / restricted, or that it is recorded by an "office for legal ordination"?

Does being a "recognized" religion mean that Druid groups will no longer be able to self-define but must adhere to the "recognized" standards of the Charity Commission involving belief in a supreme being and so on?

Still, I think it's not about being recognised as a religion, but about TDN being recognised as a charitable organisation under the law or what of charitable religions. To do that, the commission imo had to class TDN as a religious organisation. That's it, as far as I understand. So if TDN changed to an organisation of three Atheists reading Jakes poetry in his kitchen ... well, they'd be an American cult then, wouldn't they. If TDN changed very drastically to selling yellow clothes to red-dressed people, they wouldn't be classed as a religious organisation anymore, methinks.
I still see a difference in classing someone as charitable and recognising a religion. Standards seem to be very wide, as far as I understand Oneinone.

[Oneonine]

What it means for OBOD and other druid groups, is that if they want to avail themselves of any services that the TDN now offers, such as, say, being promoted on the website, they will have to be druids as defined by the definition of druid that the TDN drew up and placed before the charity commission. For that reason they consulted with many druid groups on that definition beforehand, and stated they all agreed with that basic definition, though some said they would have added more detail. OBOD would have been one of the groups that helped draw up that definition.

I don't know if they will have to change that definition now, given the fact they assured the charity commission that their defination of druid included some form of supreme being as central to their beliefs, whereas the definition they had agreed with all the druid groups says only some members have this belief. There is also the fact that druids who will be able to use the TDN services are defined as druids who celebrate eight festivals, and have private and open to the public ceremonies, and aren't elitist in any way, the "grades" having no heirarchy, and there being no secret occult teachings. A druid group is also defined as one that takes maintenance of its doctrines seriously. There are other parts of the definition that counterbalance such things, such as the statement of diversity and inclusion of beliefs outside of the druid definition though, so it's probably the best fit for the most number of people, and cleverly done.

I forsee the public equating druidry with this definition, and others outside this definition being equated with somehow not being "real" druids, over time. Perhaps druid groups will find themselves having to fall in line with this definition just to facilitate moving forward in future battles.

[Merlyn]

Thanks Bocan for posting the full legal form.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/0 ... us/?hpt=C1

t1larg_druids_stonehenge_gi.jpg (67.86 KiB) Viewed 444 times

(Though the dragons are wondering if their truth is safe in the hands of men)
I will definitely read in depth all of this, however for the moment I have to celebrate a bit!

This news will no doubt bring attention to many things previously dismissed.

Very glad to see this come to pass!



And yes, it is high time to deflate the disinformation and lies made by those three religions who contend no others can exist. With hope to this end.

Neo-pagans seek to communicate with spirits, but witchcraft is not Satanic because its believers don't recognize the Satan of Christianity, Judaism or Islam, Laubach said.

[bocan]

What it means for OBOD and other druid groups, is that if they want to avail themselves of any services that the TDN now offers, such as, say, being promoted on the website, they will have to be druids as defined by the definition of druid that the TDN drew up and placed before the charity commission. For that reason they consulted with many druid groups on that definition beforehand, and stated they all agreed with that basic definition, though some said they would have added more detail. OBOD would have been one of the groups that helped draw up that definition.

Ok, this simply isn't correct. Firstly, TDN deals with individuals more than groups. Secondly it's irrelevant how you practice your druidry or even to be druid at all to use the website. Anyone can request that say a link is added to the Weblinks page - it only needs to be "of pagan interest". Any grove of any persuasion can ask to be listed in their directory as well as long as they're inclusive are don't bring druidry into disrepute. The definition only applies to the entity known as The Druid Network. Not necessarily their members. That's my take on it anyway.

[Dendrias]

Oy, Merlyn, that website is very odd in places. It seems to be copy-and-pasted without connecting the dots.

[Oneonine]

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Lib ... uiddec.pdf

Indviduals or groups, I was quoting article 41. from the document which says "... druid groups and members who avail themselves of the services of The Druid Network are asked to confirm their assent to the definition of druid.... "

It may not have been the way it was before, but that's one of the conditions of being recognised as a religious charity now.

AND

I asked for a link to be added about 6 months ago and was told I would have to have a definition statement for them to decide if they included my link. As I was just hoping to start a pagan social club through my website, excluding no one, it couldn't be given a definition. I was told I could try and write one and try later, but decided instead to wait and see the outcome of what their definition of druid was.

[DJ Droood]

Clicking randomly through the more than 70 "adult" and "family" pagan groups in Kentucky listed on WitchVox, I found eleven websites of legally incorporated pagan churches and/or legally ordained pagan clergy folk in the state. Though they range from the got-it-together to the clearly pathetic, all attained said legal status prior to today's announcement from the UK.

And thirty-nine ordained pagan ministers are listed here: http://www.witchvox.com/vn/cl/usky_cl.html

I stand corrected....ummmm...Arkansas?

[Merlyn]

Getting charity status for one kind of druidry is but a small step alas..

However... I look at it from a Welsh view, (once forced to bid the king's religion) that after all this time, they finally recognize druids in a more genuine way after so long.

Still a very long way to go.
Even in Kansas.

Merlyn

[DJ Droood]

Still a very long way to go.
Even in Kansas.

Merlyn

In some ways, Druidry in Britain is catching up to Druids and other neo-pagans in the United States, which already provides tax-exempt status for religious groups, said Marty Laubach, Associate Professor of Sociology at Marshall University.

So the US is the progressive one...interesting

I think the "official recognition" part is even more significant than the tax exempt part..personally, I think it is a civic duty to pay taxes.

[Corwen]

The US is more progressive in this sense, there is in the UK no real way for a religion to be recognised officially as in the US as our constitution relies on precedent and there is no single mechanism. The charities commission is an important body which regulates the activities of bodies constituted as charities (which Druid groups can now be), but its ruling will have no effect on other areas of UK law such as the registration of places of worship for weddings etc until these different areas are tested in court or ruled on by other bodies or the home office. It does set a useful and helpful precedent though and opens the door for other Pagan groups who want to be constituted as charities.

[bocan]

I asked for a link to be added about 6 months ago and was told I would have to have a definition statement for them to decide if they included my link. As I was just hoping to start a pagan social club through my website, excluding no one, it couldn't be given a definition. I was told I could try and write one and try later, but decided instead to wait and see the outcome of what their definition of druid was.

You sure it was 6 months ago? I'm responsible for the web links page on TDN and I've never refused to put a link up for that reason. Aside from the rules I mentioned the unwritten (and obvious) rules are: You have to have a "description" of your site and it has to be "of druidic interest" and it has to not suck. So I wonder which of those you broke.

Maybe it was bit further back?

[Oneonine]

You must be Bryn then. Back in March. I was inviting all pagans to make use of the druid website and kindly donated minibus and druid tour guide, and was told I was "broader pagan" but told if I had any purely druid groups to list I could send them your way. At the time I didn't feel bad about it as the email was tactful and informative about the fine line I crossed, but I wasn't ready to be exclusively druid, as there would only have been two other druids to use the bus if I was, and that was an unacceptable use of the fuel, for just three people.

Aside from the rules I mentioned the unwritten (and obvious) rules are: You have to have a "description" of your site and it has to be "of druidic interest" and it has to not suck. So I wonder which of those you broke

The "not having to suck" aspect wasn't mentioned in email, so I guess you save that part for public humiliation purposes later.

[bocan]

You must be Bryn then. Back in March.

The "not having to suck" aspect wasn't mentioned in email, so I guess you save that part for public humiliation purposes later.

Oh! You don't mean a weblink. If it was Bryn you were trying to add a group to the Druid Directory. Yeah, that does have slightly higher criteria because as the name implies it's focused on druids. I'll be quiet now.

[Philip]

Hi folks,
Here's an initial response to the news. Oneonline said earlier: 'OBOD would have been one of the groups that helped draw up that definition'. As you''ll see that's not the case. Corwen gave a great response which clarifies the fact that this news does not mean that Druidry is now 'officially recognised' by the UK government, so Corwen I hope you're ok that I've quoted you as below in my blog:

News has hit the headlines that Druidry has been classed as a religion by the UK Charity Commissioners. Like everyone else here I’m still digesting what this means. This is the Druid Network’s initiative and it’s out of the blue for us in OBOD, we haven’t been involved. (Which is fine – consult 4 druids as they say, and you get 5 opinions.) But this means it needs careful consideration. On the one hand this could well be a positive move, bearing in mind though, as one commentator said: “there is in the UK no real way for a religion to be recognised officially as in the US, as our constitution relies on precedent and there is no single mechanism. The Charities Commission is an important body which regulates the activities of bodies constituted as charities (which Druid groups can now be), but its ruling will have no effect on other areas of UK law such as the registration of places of worship for weddings etc., until these different areas are tested in court or ruled on by other bodies or the Home Office. It does set a useful and helpful precedent though and opens the door for other Pagan groups who want to be constituted as charities.”

However, I – and many other OBOD members – have always liked the way Druidry has avoided being ‘boxed-in’ to one definition: a spiritual path to some people, a magical tradition to another, a religion to a third, a philosophy or cultural phenomenon to another, and so on. As soon as you start on the path of trying to define Druidry you run into problems: look at the last sentence of the quote I gave: ‘other Pagan groups’ – well some Druids don’t consider themselves Pagan so you’ve got a problem right away. Not all people who call themselves Druids would agree with all aspects of the definition of Druidry that The Druid Network have agreed with the Charity Commission. As with many things there are positives and negatives and it’s a question of weighing these up and looking more closely at the implications of the decision.

[Merlyn]

Many orders are charity orders in the US, The loyal order of the moose, as example. They are not a religion based or active religious focus, but having been in one of the orders, they do use a bible as their guide in such matters of that sort. Many other groups fringe in this way, and are strong supporters of charity.

The "news-worthiness" of this IMO is the fact of where and when, more than what. To some extent we are seeing a rising conflict of sorts with falsehoods being made over a one sided view from one group of religions. This has taken a political stage here in the US as of late.

I note that the legal paper, some 21 pages, begins with the fact it references Wales and to me that speaks volumes..

That aside, passing the litmus test as this does, and how it does, could set the stage for more. As Philip suggests... be careful what you ask for...
The question rises.. is this really something we would want?
A lot of thinking might be something worth doing before putting a foot into this.
The dragons are not overly happy with the idea..
Me thinks..
Merlyn

[Oneonine]

Article 41. says they consulted with other druid groups worldwide... etc

Isn't the OBOD one of the largest?

Aren't OBOD groves and members represented on the TDN website?

Aren't OBOD members of the type referred to by the TDN as doing good works as prison chaplains etc...

And the OBOD wasn't consulted?

I'm amazed that it took 5 years and they never consulted the OBOD once, yet consulted other groups worldwide so as to assure the charity commission the definition was widely acceptable to most calling themselves druid. I made an assumption it was...

I realised it was only the charities commission definition, but it seems as though this is a definition held up to be an aspirational standard to achieve, and sets the bar for others, as it were.

There are some posts I've missed due to it being spread over several threads, but... I find this astonishing. It never even entered my head that the OBOD wasn't consulted as one of those groups.

[Philip]

Hi folks - I mentioned earlier that we had not been consulted by TDN, but Phil Ryder of the TDN has pointed out to me that I did have an exchange of emails in 2007 about this with Emma, so I was incorrect. I'm sorry about the confusion. A lot of email flows past me and three years seems ages ago and my memory isn't getting any better! This is such a big issue we're going to take some time to consider all the ramifications of this... the problem with the internet is it encourages quick-fire responses and I think we need to take a long and measured view of this development.

[Oneonine]

I personally think you're snookered.

Any dissent and argument by other druid groups now is just going to be fodder for the kind of publications that made jokes of druids in the past, like the Daily Mail, say.

Unless... oh well, I'm gonna shut up now. Like you say, lots to ponder.

[Jake]

Corwen, thank you for introducing some facts into a very confusing conversation! Without an understanding of the legal context in which this decision was made, both the announcement itself and the competing claims made here about its implications were making my head spin.

I also find Philip's post reassuring. It's good to know that, consulted or not, OBOD does not officially endorse all the particulars of the definition of Druidry currently advanced by TDN in that document. I was half expecting (well maybe less than half) the next issue of Touchstone to include an article announcing the formation of the Church of OBOD.

It's a relief to know that OBOD Druidry at least remains "outside the box" and no one need fear being excommunicated for failure to make proper obeisance to the "spirits of thunder" or what have you.

But it's a little disappointing as well because now we'll never know just how gallant a figure Philip would cut sporting a mitre and crosier.