What has atheism and materialism got to do with druidry?

[Attila]

What has atheism and materialism got to do with druidry?

I would think that no matter what belief system one has within your own druidic context, at the very least druidry has some concept of nature spirit ~ even if it is left undefined [best way perhaps]. What is druidry without any form of spirituality, and what does it mean to be a materialist + druid? The very word ‘druid’ implies the ability of a seer [oak-seer is it not? Or something along those lines] and without spirit, seeing is just looking at material things via the physical makeup of the human form, and that is not ‘seeing’.

Just wondering.

[Nightfalls]

perhaps atheists believe in "Spirits" but not "Gods"?

these are both odd theorys and belief systems to intermingle with druidry i think. Perhaps someone who is an atheist could comment more on this?

[Davin Raincloud]

At the very least I think you need to believe in a spirit world.

If Athiets just means 'no God/s' then so be it, but what I usually find is most athiests tend to be hard materialists.

That being said, there are always exceptions.

I think if you don't have sort sort of belief in the Celtic idea of the Otherworld, then youa re a very strange Druid indeed.

[treegod]

I'm a strange Druid. As far as I'm concerned there are no gods or spirits. I am a materialist and a Druid(-in-training). That doesn't mean there isn't an importance to such beliefs. Going through the OBOD course I feel comfortable doing excercises on "Nwfre" and even talking to my "guides". It is all "pretend" or "imaginary", but that doesn't matter, because I find meaning and usefulness in such excercises.

Here's an excerpt from an article I've written, The Three Functions of Druidry, about spirituality. For me it's more about psychospiritual development and making sense and giving meaning to life and the universe than the "supernatural".

“It [spirituality] is the province of our responsive and creative imagination – not just a fiction-factory but a vitally necessary place where we work out the interpretative patterns we need for our life-world as a whole, structures and visions to provide some usable order in the chaotic world of our experience.” Mary Midgley

Symbols speak to us at deep levels; they evoke and invoke energies within us, energies that give us a connection between our personal life and the rest of the cosmos. Spirituality gives meaning and ethics to guide us in life, guiding our attitude and behaviour, but it also goes deeper than that. Psychospiritual development can take place, through the normal psychological development stages, but also a spiritual development where an individual is open to their creative potential beyond initial psychological programming. When therapy stops or is not necessary, and the psyche is in a healthy and balanced state, development doesn’t stop there, it carries on. The psyche is not a static machine, to be repaired, adjusted and kept running smoothly, it is a growing organic thing that constantly changes, and spirituality is something that helps us cope and direct that change, and allows the soul’s own Dharma or spiritual “blueprint” to unfold and evolve according to its own inner pattern.

There's an Order of "strange" Druids, the Druidic Order of Naturalists. If Druids were the closest thing to scientists of their time it would only be logical that modern Druids would be up to date with modern science, IMO.

[Davin Raincloud]

There's an Order of "strange" Druids, the Druidic Order of Naturalists. If Druids were the closest thing to scientists of their time it would only be logical that modern Druids would be up to date with modern science, IMO.

Of course most scientists in last 500 years were Christians. So yeah, I see your point.

If more materialists could embrace what you said above, the world would be a better place!

[Corwen]

I don't believe in Gods or Spirits. I'll take some time to explain how this relates to Druidry, when I have a minute, but its been pretty well covered in another thread already.

[Attila]

I agree that atheism is simply a lack of belief in god, so it can be spiritual. If I hadn’t seen gods I wouldn’t believe in them, so just as one can be an atheist Buddhist I would say its fine to have an open minded atheist side to druidry.

I am not saying that druids should be this or that of course, but druidry was spiritual and I think if we leave that out of the context of what the term now means, then we loose the very essence of it.
It is mainly materialism that I think doesn’t work, although even then one can include ceugant in that in a similar way to how Buddhists think of nirvana as not being spirit.

“It [spirituality] is the province of our responsive and creative imagination – not just a fiction-factory but a vitally necessary place where we work out the interpretative patterns we need for our life-world as a whole, structures and visions to provide some usable order in the chaotic world of our experience.” Mary Midgley

I see this as psychology not druidry, although I see how it can work with druidry.

It seams these days that everything is taken apart and lost [reduced to nothing], but druidry has an identity even if left unsaid there are things it cannot be [e.g. a druid hitler or criminal etc].

I do think druidry is up to date with science and also philosophy, but I thin there is a gaping hole where both cannot explain what ‘mind’ is. This is where druidry steps in, we don’t have to call it spirit, but I think we need to acknowledge that reality is necessarily greater than the material universe, and that we do exist.

[Corwen]

Attilla, before we go on, could you define what you mean by 'spiritual', and by 'materialism'. Also where you say something is 'psychology not druidry' this infers that you have a working definition of Druidry against which you can compare things to see if they are 'druidry' or not. Would you mind sharing this definition with us?

[treegod]

Yes, please.

[Attila]

Attilla, before we go on, could you define what you mean by 'spiritual', and by 'materialism'. Also where you say something is 'psychology not druidry' this infers that you have a working definition of Druidry against which you can compare things to see if they are 'druidry' or not. Would you mind sharing this definition with us?

Materialism;
▸ noun: (philosophy) the philosophical theory that matter is the only reality.

Druidry is at least something more than that or we are simply swapping terms and using a far less self descriptive term [druidry] for ‘material’-ism.

We all have our own variation on what we think 'druidry' means as you know! Psychology is psychology, it can be used in the druidic context but like materialism it does not describe anything druidic i.e. aside from itself. I am not the writer of the druids bible and I think we will all agree it is better to not have such a thing, my definition changes and grows all the time, so if I did write it, then it would be immediately defunct.

[treegod]

I there there are three things to "marry" here; Druidry, materialism and spirituality.

Druidry
For me Druidry serves as a model or archetype, particularily as a service that provides a role or function to society. Ancient Druidry is extinct and I think we have moved on somewhat that some (but not all) of its ideas are not relevant to living in modern times. We have accumulated other experiences ("advanced" perhaps, if you get the reference), and if I wanted to faithfully reconstruct it I'd go into archeology.

Modern Druidry is a different species altogether and has a life of its own independent, though obviously inspired by Ancient Druidry. It takes many forms, but my own work is with the OBOD course. The OBOD course isn't one based on the Old Ways, IMO it is modern and its "druidicness" is based more on archetypal ideas than accurate conformity to Ancient Druidry.

Materialism
I'm quite happy to think that, so far, all that we need know exists is the physical world, that there is no otherworld, no heaven, no hell or other, subtle or etheric, planes of existence. Nor any of their associated inhabitants. But something I've learnt is that no matter how "objective" or "logical" I am there is a strong feeling that I can't shake off. I am convinced that though the universe is a materialist one, the human brain isn't something that has developed along those sort of lines, that I am also subjective and illogical. I used to call it the "spiritual instinct", and I feel I am going against a natural quality within me if I deny this, no matter what the objective-logical side of me says.

Spirituality
Know thyself. That's what this comes down to for me. There are many spiritual traditions around the world, and though I don't think they represent what reality is they certainly have some interesting things to say about human nature, and how we experience our selves, objectively and subjectively . Modern Druidry does too, and can and does draw on several "streams" of wisdom from around the world. One of which is modern psychology. As well as the OBOD course I also work with psychosynthesis, something Philip Carr-Gomm is certainly more than familiar with. Also ecopsychology, which in a way is ancient but also I think needs more modern language to describe the relationship between "psyche" and "eco" to make it more relevant to people who aren't and have never been familiar with ancient extinct ways.

For me these subjects aren't mutually exclusive and work well for me under what I call "Druidry".

[Nicholaas]

Spirituality has become such a nebulous concept, it can essentially be reconciled with nearly any worldview depending upon how you define it. Most people who label themselves as "spiritual" tend to follow it with"...but not religious", mainly because it rejects dogma and definition associated with most religions. So it's a hard one to pin down.

[Frog]

It's an interesting question and one in which I think it depends how we interpret life itself.

It is often said that we are all interconnected - and that once we start to break down everything around us it all falls to a simple, repeatable atom structure, which reform into the very things that surround us - therefore materialism. There is also the "spark of life" which seems to exist with no initial action (that we can scientifically determine at present) and thus ends. Therefore, if all this is energy (and therefore is subject to laws of physics etc) then (in my mind) it can be argued that the spark of life will transfer from one body to another (but I've no idea how it does that!). My argument would then head off that if this is all subject to checks and balances then as we increase the human population, we will see a decrease elsewhere (trees, plants, other life forms).

So how would that apply to Druidry? It is all about being a custodian of the checks and balances - nature's treasurer if you will - so this links quite neatly together with athiesm and materialism.

The "god(s)" bit to my mind is the explanation of how the spark of life comes to existence and is directed about - but that (perhaps like the thinking of centuries ago) is because I haven't figured it out yet... and am happy to leave it at that too.

The Spiritualism aspect is something which I think is key to our thinking. It is not above god(s) or us - but brings the realism of the world and the responsibility of how we shape that world onto our shoulders. It is about recognising that there are actions and consequences; that people may have different views and cultures; and that it isn't "someone else's problem to deal with it".

Blessings
Frog

[lavouivre]

Frog, you summed it up all for me so well. Whenever I think of god/goddesses etc, in my mind it is "the energy of life". I guess I am more of an agnostic than an atheist though.
Druidry being a custodian of checks and balances. For me finding balance is finding wisdom, which is what Druidry is about for me (might be different for others). I am not looking out for a God, I am seeking how I can become a balanced wise person that respects the energy of life, wherever it can be found. And finding out how our brain works with psychology is a part of finding wisdom and balance and a good part of the gwers.
As for that energy of life, I have no idea what it is, where it comes from, what the initial spark is. I am waiting for science to tell me, but I am also open-minded to the revelation of a greater power, another god/goddess/spirit, and ready for other questions that may arise from either scientific or spiritual revelation.

Maybe the good thing about that is that it took off a bit of the edge of fear of death, as some curiosity (not a unhealthy dose!) arises from the fact that the "of energy of life" seems to disappear suddenly from one's body.

I guess a spritual path that makes sense for me is druidry as OBOD, where religion is set aside and the gnothi seauton is king!

[wolf560]

What has atheism and materialism got to do with druidry?
The very word ‘druid’ implies the ability of a seer [oak-seer is it not?]...

I see no conflict personally..........

The Druids of Caesars time were Seers or Priests (Vates), but were also Judges and Lawyers (Brehons and Brithim), Doctors and Masters of their craft (Ollamh) Astrologers and Astronomers (Ollamh and Vates), Bards and Poets (Filidh), Historians of the tribe, Emissaries to distant lands and Teachers of their craft to any who would listen.

They were the "Aes Dana" of the Celtic world, the high ones or "people of the arts".
Interestingly enough, Blacksmiths were considered to be of this class as well.

In our modern times, Druids have come to be known by only the first mentioned.
In many ways I am happy to see the return of Druidry.
In some ways I wish it were a full return rather than just the Ovates and Bards.

I consider myself to be on the Path of most of the above; I am a Historian by education, an Emissary by trade, a Teacher by training, a Bard by accomplishment, a Seer by vocation, a Priest by appointment, and Druid through and through.

I do my best at whatever I set my mind to, for I believe that what I do and say is a direct reflection on Druids everywhere.

[lavouivre]

I consider myself to be on the Path of most of the above; I am a Historian by education, an Emissary by trade, a Teacher by training, a Bard by accomplishment, a Seer by vocation, a Priest by appointment, and Druid through and through.

That's impressive wolf560! good for you!!
Aside note:I thought being a seer is more of a gift than a vocation??

I agree with you that I would have loved to see all the ways come back, and all the better if it takes a lifetime of learning

[wolf560]

Hello again...

I was not intending to "toot my own horn"

I have been on the path since 1984, and always considered my actions as a direct reflection upon my path (and any others who might walk it).

... being a seer is more of a gift than a vocation??

I was informally taught for about a year by an accomplished Tarot reader back in the early 80's. She worked at the same place I did, 2nd shift team, and I noticed she read her cards every break on a silk cloth. She took me under her wing and taught me to open myself up to the meanings of the cards and the reactions of the seeker. I never before had had the slightest inkling of what the Tarot was all about.

As far as the other parts go; the "Emissary" part was what I did for about three years. I spread the word of any Pagan gathering all across my community. I made it a point to tell everyone, usually by going to the various Pagan shops and hangouts. People began calling me the "Town Crier" (which I did not like) so I began calling myself "The Emissary" and it stuck. By the end of 2002 I was actually being asked to come in and settle arguments between people or groups that they had not been able to settle on their own.

I do write my own rituals and used to write poetry and play the French Horn & Guitar, but that was years ago. I finally got my Masters Degree and am considering a second one if I can get the money together.

Add that onto 20 years of military service and 8 years working in the Middle East for the military, NATO, and the United Nations..... I've been busy to say the least.

It's good to meet you and I hope we continue to share and learn from each other..

[lavouivre]

Well, you did seem to have taken a whole life of learning
Were you already a druid while in the military? How was it? I know there are a few threads on people trying to reconcile police work or military career with druidry and having difficulties, or at least tricky questions about it.

Your background is interesting and varied. That's what I like about OBOD members. It is nice meeting you there!

[Attila]

I see no conflict personally..........

I agree with your post but I just think there was an extra element to those positions as to what they are now. Mystic judge who can pierce the depths of ones mind, as opposed to simply a judge, a priest with inner sight/perception rather than one without ect.

More importantly they didn’t see the world as purely materialistic, there is no magic in the material. This is the difference.
...not a conflict exactly, i just cant see druidry without its non-material elements.

[wolf560]

Were you already a druid while in the military? How was it?

I considered myself a "Druid in training" in 1980-1981.

I joined the US Army in 1982, they required me to name my "religion" so it could be displayed on my dogtag. I told them "Druid" and they said ...."OK, we will put 'No-Pref' (no preference). I responded immediately "No, please put Druid... if I am killed in combat a No-Pref receives a Catholic burial rite, and that is against my wishes".

My Drill Sergeant on Day One wanted to know which of his recruits would have to be sent to which Sunday service. After he was done I was standing all by myself.... he said "Crap, another Atheist" to which I replied "No, your First Druid". Every Sunday after that I was released to walk into the woods for about two hours (I did not need to be taken there by bus so I got "travel time" included).

I dedicated my life to "Druidry" in 1984, and began to thoroughly research it in any library I could find. Of course it is so much easier now to both find things on Druidry and to find other Druids.

During my time in the Army (I was Infantry- a "Foot Soldier", a Machine gunner to be specific) I often used my talents and was usually sent ahead of the unit as a kind of 'Scout'. It was not that I was a good 'tracker' or 'hunter'... I just "knew where the bad guys were". My unit proudly said that they had their "very own Druid". Since I was able to discover just about every ambush the other guys had laid for us, they actually hated going against us.

In early 1985, my Unit Chaplain called me into his office so I could sign something he had prepared for me. It was a "Change of Faith" request so that my dogtags could reflect a "properly recognized Faith" in accordance with the military. When I refused his order he said "If you can show me just one bit of evidence, I will let you keep this "Druid Thing" on your dogtag". He went on to add that whatever I wanted to use had to be "educational and universally recognized" and should be in written form. I dashed to the library and brought back the "D-volume" of the Encyclopedia Britannia. There were about 20 other young soldiers waiting to be seen. I marched right past all of them and gently opened the book in front of the military officer. He shrugged, said I could leave, and called for the "next Pagan". The rest of them all proclaimed "I'm a Druid too..!!!' About a year later we found out that the US Military had formally recognized Witches and Pagans as a legitimate religion and I was never bothered again.

Towards the end of my career, Sept 11 happened. Although I tried to stay in I was told that my particular talents (teaching others) was going to be in sore need. They estimated that I would spend the first three years of any conflict training troops in the USA. I retired immediately and took a job on the Iraq border as a contractor.

That was 2002 and I just got back from Afghanistan a few months ago. I have been over there the entire time, except for six months in 2005 when I helped the U.N. deliver medical supplies to Pakistan for the Earthquake there.

My belief in Druidry (the gathering and protection of knowledge) has never been more important to me with one exception and that was my family. It has never interfered with my career and has only enhanced my outlook on and interaction with life.

Some say that "Druids are Peaceful" but there is no such thing in any history I have found. The Ancient Druids were exempt from military service true, but they followed and supported their tribes warriors into every fight.

I try to understand what the Ancient Druids did so that I can attempt to put those beliefs into a more modern context. Military Life for me was voluntary since there is no such thing as a "Druid" when you look through the classified section looking for jobs....