Druidry becomes an official religion in England

[lavouivre]

Of course it is all conjectures for now, like most of the other threads here.
One can't help but think that if we need a kind of general group to unite all the separate groups, the idea of a "chief" of some sort isn't that far. Of course union is strength, but don't we go back to power and politics in this case?
True, having someone from the DN would definitly add to the discussion.
And it is still a great achievement in regards of history, to have druidry recognized.

[DJ Droood]

And it is still a great achievement in regards of history, to have druidry recognized.

Perhaps in the UK, it is partly to recognize the heritage aspect of druidry...it was their national religion, after all....if the Ministry of Tourism was smart, they would hire a bunch of druids, or at least druid re-enactors, to hang around the various stones and have their pictures taken with tourists.

[lavouivre]

That made me laugh!

[wolf560]

I just don't want druidry to become arrogant with recognition and change its great freedom of thoughts to a canon/non-canon religion.

I agree..... and disagree

I do see a need for certain things that we should probably not consider.
I won't open up a "can-o-worms", but I do see certain things as being very 'non-Druid'.

Basic guidelines can be very helpful, especially to those who are just starting.

To be thrown out because you believe in the 'wrong' Elements, faced North when calling for "Spirits of Air" or had a rubber ducky on your altar...... to me would be 'excessive'.

[lavouivre]

To be thrown out because you believe in the 'wrong' Elements, faced North when calling for "Spirits of Air" or had a rubber ducky on your altar...... to me would be 'excessive'.

Agreed! haha

I am probably exagerating the cons of being recognized as a religion (though still don't like some points in the Charity commission chart: but you can't please everyone, I know!). Still, I like OBOD's freedom and that's why I joined this group in particular.

[wolf560]

Several years ago, I was asked to leave a Pagan ritual circle because "my belief in three elements was in contradiction to the TRUE FIVE ELEMENTS"... I believe in Three....

A while ago, I was asked to leave a discussion board because I said "Air could be in the North for some people". I even backed up the argument, but to no avail.....

I have always believed that "if it isn't fun, you're doing something wrong" (hence my remark on the 'Rubber Duckie' on the altar)

[lavouivre]

But it is true there are 5 elements! at least Bruce Willis and Milla Jovovich say so
Plus I like the idea of the 5th element being a super woman...

So which element do you leave aside then? I always learned about 4 and never really thought about it.

From the East Coast gathering of two weeks ago, we had a ritual workshop where we were told by Susan herself (second in command? one of the elders of OBOD? ) that as long as symbolically it works for you, then you should put the elements you like in the direction that seems fit to you... Your own logic prevails. And that's why I like OBOD so much so far.

Fun and laughter were also a good part of the gathering, and you are right, they are so important. And it was one of the most magical moments of the gathering: the story-telling, jokes, music, drums and songs around the fire at night with like-minded people.

[wolf560]

So which element do you leave aside then?

I have but Three elements; Land-Sea-Sky
The Land is represented by everything immediately around me.
The Sea is represented by the waters of the Earth below me.
The Sky is represented by the air and clouds and everything above me.

I do have my quarterly representations, but they are a little different as well.
The four quarters (some call them watchtowers) are from the original four magickal tools of Ireland and where in relation to Tara Hill they came from.

The Spear of Lugh came from the city of Gorias, brought by Esras.
The Stone of Fal came from the city of Falias, brought by Morfessa.
The Sword of Nuada came from the city of Findias, brought by Uscias.
The Cauldron of the Daghda came from the city of Murias, brought by Semais.

These four "Magic Tools" were used during the second battle of Magh Tuead (Moy Tooray) and represented the strength of the Tuatha De Danaan. When I saw these four tools and begin to relate them to the modern four elements and the tools we are supposed to use I saw an immediate connection.

The Spear= the Staff (small version- the wand) Air
The Stone= the Pentacle (small or large no difference) Earth
The Sword= the Sword (small version- the athame) Fire
The Cauldron= the Bowl 9small or large no difference) Water

The cities were-
Gorias is a city to the east of Tara
Falias is a city to the north of Tara
Findias is a city to the south of Tara
Murias is a city to the west of Tara

The problem however is the fact there are some that say the cities locations were fiddled with by the Christian monks. I'm still searching for the text I found that shows Falias in the South, Findias in the East, and Gorias in the North.

In the end, the Celts felt everything started with the sunrise to the East so for me that is Fire. The only named wind I could find is the "Northern Wind" so Air is in the North for me. All elements must be in balance so the opposite elements must face one another.
Air opposed by Earth
Fire opposed by Water

So.....
Air in the North
Earth in the South
Fire in the East
Water in the West

[Frog]

As for me - I think it's great TDN got the tax relief; it's a shame that in order to do so they've had to compromise the freedoms of belief within its members.

Can you provide some clarity on this point? Thanks.

Sure - my understanding is that in order to get the charitable status as a religion, it had to state that its members had a belief in a higher power (a "God" figure). The compromise (In my opinion) is that Druidry allows us to believe in one, two many higher powers - and none. That decision lies within the member. By getting the commission to accept them, they have had to state that their members will have a belief in a higher power... which marginalises some of its members (who may be agnostic, or who's belief does not hold a "god concept".

That's my understanding - but I will accept it may just be what I was presented with to form my opinion.

Frog

[Ailim]

Sure - my understanding is that in order to get the charitable status as a religion, it had to state that its members had a belief in a higher power (a "God" figure). The compromise (In my opinion) is that Druidry allows us to believe in one, two many higher powers - and none. That decision lies within the member. By getting the commission to accept them, they have had to state that their members will have a belief in a higher power... which marginalises some of its members (who may be agnostic, or who's belief does not hold a "god concept".

That's my understanding - but I will accept it may just be what I was presented with to form my opinion.

Frog

I am happy with the definition as cited in the Charity Commission Report Part 22- 24 headed "Belief in a Supreme Being or Entity". At last someone actually put a finger on what many seek - some of us believe in a pantheon (Celtic, Roman, Greek and so on) whilst others prefer to say "Spirituality/Great Spirit". Now in this Report some can now cite "Nature" as our supreme being, and that does resonate with me.

I don't think we should get too concerned with this ruling because it relates to one group of druids only - the TDN. For example if OBOD wanted to become a charity then it would have to apply in the same way and go through the same procedure although now that the TDN has done the hard work establishing druidry in the eyes of the Charity Commission it is bound to be easier for other groups.

However, for those of us who work under the "druid" label, hopefully it will make our role easier as this ruling brings a certain "official stamp" to our practice, and therefore people will be less inclined to see us as just actors in funny robes Not the first time I've been asked if i'm going to a fancy dress ball.

[wolf560]

Hello All,

I believe that some few Druids will be able to draw comfort from the label "official".
Perhaps there even may be a few that need such recognition for some reason.
Whether emotional support, or their job requires it for proof of a day off.....

I do not see this as a 'negative event' in any way.....
After all, as some have said, it only applies to the TDN in the UK
But it still is seen (by me at least) as a land mark event

[DJ Droood]

I do not see this as a 'negative event' in any way.....
After all, as some have said, it only applies to the TDN in the UK
But it still is seen (by me at least) as a land mark event

I am still confused by the ruling..is it a narrow tax-based thing that only applies to the TDN, or does it have broader legal ramifications? The Telegraph article says:

It guarantees the modern group, set up in 2003, valuable tax breaks but also grants the ancient religion equal status to more mainstream denominations. This could mean that Druids, the priestly caste in Celtic societies across Europe, are categorised separately in official surveys of religious believers.

So while I don't really care about UK tax law or the TDN in particular, the broader question of recognition might be important to Druids world-wide....like the domino effect..when one jurisdiction does something, it sets a precedent.

[wolf560]

The Telegraph article says:

This could mean that Druids... are categorised separately in official surveys of religious believers.

... the broader question of recognition might be important to Druids world-wide....like the domino effect..when one jurisdiction does something, it sets a precedent.

Exactly, I do believe it sets a valuable and positive precedent that Druids world-wide might benefit from. I feel, at least, that it does not present anything negative anyway.

[Ailim]

I am still confused by the ruling..is it a narrow tax-based thing that only applies to the TDN, or does it have broader legal ramifications? The Telegraph article says:

It guarantees the modern group, set up in 2003, valuable tax breaks but also grants the ancient religion equal status to more mainstream denominations. This could mean that Druids, the priestly caste in Celtic societies across Europe, are categorised separately in official surveys of religious believers.

So while I don't really care about UK tax law or the TDN in particular, the broader question of recognition might be important to Druids world-wide....like the domino effect..when one jurisdiction does something, it sets a precedent.

Here's a link the our HM Revenue & Customs page on Charity Taxation matters. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/tax/index.htm

So unless a group has charitable status then they would be liable to taxation on their income, plus paying tax on profits and so on.

Druidry has, for some years now, been listed among the recognised religions in the UK on NHS databases (hospitals etc.) and the The Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003 actually paved the way for Druids and Pagans to become more "accepted". This law was introduced in order to comply with the European Union Directive 2000/78/EC and complement similar measures on sexuality, age, disability, race and gender discrimination. As a result of this law, prisoners can demand to see a Pagan Chaplain which is why the Pagan Federation has been working hard to work with the Prison establishments to ensure that they have one

[DJ Droood]

So unless a group has charitable status then they would be liable to taxation on their income, plus paying tax on profits and so on.

That seems fair..I am all for giving breaks to organizations that do charity work and taxing "for profit" operations...I suppose arcane tax law of any country is beyond me, but I can't see what religion should have to do with it at all. If a tree is being planted or a child is being fed, give them a break! If you are selling widgets, pay your taxes!

[Corwen]

Our law is based on judgement and precedent so the CC decision sets a good precedent as far as treating Druidry as a religion in other matters is concerned. However there is no single mechanism for declaring something a religion, and every individual right has to be fought for separately. This is a help though for such matters as registering places of worship and celebrants.

[Lailoken]

The title of this thread is somewhat misleading (sorry lavouivre). When I read it, I got all excited. Imagine...Druidry becoming an official state religion!!! But at the same time I'm thinking this really came out of left field, there's got to be a catch.

I won't even begin to claim I can wrap my head around legal mumbo-jumbo. I'm not clear on what it takes to have a religion or spiritual path legally recognized in England or even in my home country of Canada or the US where I now reside. But reading through the threads on this subject, I can't help but feel a bit of 'well, so what? TDN has tax-exempt status but is still not recognized as a religion by the English government apart from the charity commission.' I don't know what this means for the future of Druidry, but I'm fairly confident the rest of us won't have to 'step in line' anytime soon. But hey, Rome wasn't built in a day, so this may very well be a small step in the right direction, leading to the official recognition of Druidry in England.

Based on what I've read here, has not TDN sort of sold out? Someone wrote that on their website they say that members may or may not believe in a supreme being, but in their definition to the commission they claim that Druids do believe in a supreme being. Doesn't it dilute any sense of hard-fought victory?

I also feel that those 5 years of hard work would have been better spent working towards changing the way the English government views and defines religious groups, as opposed to just getting a tax break. Opening the doors for other 'alternative religions' to get their rightfully-owed recognition would truly have been a noble and exciting act and perhaps would prevent groups from having to compromise when defining themselves and their beliefs.

[wolf560]

Hello All,

Perhaps a look at the actual document is in order...
TDN was not going for 'state religion', but simply for recognition overall I believe.

I found the actual document to be interesting and well written.
I agreed with 90% of the cause projected, there were some things that had to be defined.
I use the acronym 'TDN' for Druid Network and 'CC' for Charity Commission below.

Here are some salient points in the actual document;
01. TDN provides information and inspiration on the principles and practice of Druidry.
02. TDN puts interested members of the public in contact with local groups.
03. TDN supports members in providing (and advertising) public rituals
04. TDN assists in the establishment and running of new groups
05. TDN supports organization of public rituals at Stonehenge; mid-winter/ mid-summer
06. TDN provides a website forum and supports environmental projects.
07. Charity status on the basis; "advancement of religion for public benefit" (#25)
08. CC allowed for "the deities involved to be many and varied" (#27)
09. CC allowed for the word "spirituality" instead of "religion" (#29)
10. CC told that "Christians can respect Druidry but are not Druids" (#30)
11. CC agreed that "Nature" could be considered a "Supreme entity" as required (#32)
12. CC agreed that not all Druids were alike, but all were still Druids (#40)
13. CC agreed that 8 festivals, lunar rituals, rites of passage were common core (#43)
14. CC agreed that despite differences, it was "a real movement and not fantasy" (#44)
15. CC noted Hospital, Prison, and Museum recognition of Druidry (#45)
16. CC said "a positive, beneficial, moral, and ethical framework" was promoted (#48)
17. The last four pages spell out all the conclusions and statements.....

I agree with the basis of the move and I think the outcome is a good one. I was not in agreement with note number 10, but you can't have everything can you?


http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Library/about_us/druiddec.pdf

[DJ Droood]

Although not going for state religion, I think a definition for druidry set down in law (tax law, in this case) sets a precedent for other legal arguments..maybe in discrimination cases or lawsuits or the like....and I can see why it is attracting so much attention. It isn't an insignificant thing for druidism in general. Even outside the UK, a lawyer might point to this definition as definitive, so I can see how it might make many people uncomfortable.

08. CC allowed for "the deities involved to be many and varied" (#27)

I think that is the "mainstream" druid attitude, although not mine nor universal. I can rationalize my way around that.

10. CC told that "Christians can respect Druidry but are not Druids" (#30)

Wow, really? That is certainly a dramatic philosophical "schism" with OBOD-style druidry, and probably a number of other branches. That seems exclusionary, and while I am certainly no supporter of that religion...deeply suspicious of it even..I have to throw my lot in with "inclusion".

And is Christianity the only religion singled out in the wording? Why not say "and no Muslim-Druids, either." for good measure?

11. CC agreed that "Nature" could be considered a "Supreme entity" as required (#32)

I can rationalize my way around this too...I am comfortable with this wording.

12. CC agreed that not all Druids were alike, but all were still Druids (#40)

yea, but what about rule #10?

13. CC agreed that 8 festivals, lunar rituals, rites of passage were common core (#43)

mainstream

14. CC agreed that despite differences, it was "a real movement and not fantasy" (#44)

huh?

16. CC said "a positive, beneficial, moral, and ethical framework" was promoted (#48)

yes.

I agree with the basis of the move and I think the outcome is a good one. I was not in agreement with note number 10, but you can't have everything can you?

yea, #10 is a gob-smacker....reminds me of the Monty Pythyon sketch....

Fourth Bruce: Rule Four, now this term, I don't want to catch anybody not drinking.

Rule Five,

Everybruce: No Poofters!

[wolf560]

I read and re-read the thing to see what and why item #10 was written.

As far as I can tell, the CC asked if Druidry was different than Christianity. They were attempting to see if Druidry was real, and separate from the mainstream which of course already has charity status.

As in anything people discuss, there will be changes that occur and differences will be gapped or reduced by cooperation and individual definitions.

The argument probably ran something like this; "If a Christian is a Druid, then a Druid cannot be a religion or a faith or a recognized belief". A line was probably drawn by the CC and the TDN had to answer it to the best of their ability.

If this is indeed what happened (as I suspect it did...)
I can live with it and therefore understand why it had to be.

Since Druidry allows for one to essentially "choose their 'Deity" (or be chosen by their Deity for some others), I can see where the problem would happen as a Druid tried to explain why so many members have so many different Deities.

I can live with this, as I still think it causes more good than harm.
I actually give it the allowance that it never intended anything but good to begin with

Then again, I am in America and am ordained as well as having finished my Druidic requirements. I do not need to prove myself or my calling, it is something that the laws of the state and country allow me by right. This is evidently not the case in other places and countries and so we must continue to move forward in any way we can.