Reclamation of the idea of "Faith"

[cat]

i'm with you on that DJ Droood

i also got Al-Qaeda and Al Jazeera mixed up earlier glad i asked the question. so wolf i applogise if i sounded defensive or agressive i'm not good with words at the best of times.

still faith
i may go sit on the fence with that one that way there is only chance of splinters in the bum. Or lochalised graveitanal storms as we used to call fallling of in judo.

i do hate being dysxelic though its funny at times

[wolf560]

...my earlier point about faith.....the trouble with the human race is we like to fight ...

I see your point about faith, and I agree with the aspect of human nature in that we like to fight. Since I come from that kind of occupation, I also see a need for people trained to defend others from harm.

As far as Al-Qaeda; many of its "holy warriors" are actually doing it because Al-Qaeda pays them to be soldiers. so they do it for a paycheck and not for political beliefs. Suicide bombers are often threatened with harm to their families if they do not go through with the act, so they are not "Martyrs" either but rather victims....

I still feel it is the notion that we do things so that we don't feel that we've wasted our time.

Faith can be a strange thing sometimes

..and yes, I agree..... "Holy Warriors" and the 'faith' they espouse has rather hijacked the whole belief system in many ways.....

[DJ Droood]

..and yes, I agree..... "Holy Warriors" and the 'faith' they espouse has rather hijacked the whole belief system in many ways.....

the "belief system" produced them..anyway, I guess I am suspicious...I can't embrace and respect the Mujaheddin like Ronald Regan did

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3f9mlUQzJA

[wolf560]

Oh Yes..... complete Whack-a-Doodles.....


I ran into a pack of them stealing warm winter blankets that I had just delivered to the survivors of the Pakistan Earthquake in 2005. They were taking them right out of the hands of women and children while apologizing and saying "they understood and hoped Allah would smile down upon them in their misery and need".

I walked up and took the blankets back (I'm not always the smartest one in a crowd). I scolded them by saying that they needed to clean their feet before entering this site again (I called them "unclean") and that they were acting against the Quran.

They are the lowest of the low and get away with it all because of the culture of the area.

P.S. Because I was wearing U.N. body armor and had 2 Pakistani SAS armed guards I was able to get away with that incident and a few others.... I would not recommend this for everyone and certainly would not recommend visiting Pakistan right now.

[Melhael]

In my opinion, I'm not really changing the meaning of "faith". It's just the object of the faith that changes in my case. Faith's pretty much a strong belief, that often relies more on denial of evidence than on the abundance of it. The difference with me is I don't have faith in one or several gods. I have faith in myself, in certain notions like the fact that if one works, one eventually succeeds in achieving one's goals... those sort of things.

By "denial of evidence", I don't mean something bad or stupid, though. Take what I just wrote, for instance: there are countless examples of people who have worked hard, dedicatedly, sometimes all their life, but achieved nothing. That would be evidence that my previous statement is incorrect (which, btw, it is). But I need to push those examples of failure to the back of my mind and focus on the equally numerous instances where people worked and therefore succeeded.

That's faith, to me: actively shaping my representation of how the world works, to suit my purpose. It is, to some extent, irrational. But I know it is, so I'm still in charge.

[treegod]

For me faith equates with trust. If I have faith in something I trust in that something.

Mostly I have faith in life. That living my life, from birth to death, is somehow worthwhile. And that faith is confirmed through experience. So far life has been worthwhile, so my "faith" is justified through experience.

And I continue having faith that life will continue being worthwhile until the day I die. (Amen )

[cat]

In my opinion, I'm not really changing the meaning of "faith". It's just the object of the faith that changes in my case. Faith's pretty much a strong belief, that often relies more on denial of evidence than on the abundance of it. The difference with me is I don't have faith in one or several gods. I have faith in myself, in certain notions like the fact that if one works, one eventually succeeds in achieving one's goals... those sort of things.

By "denial of evidence", I don't mean something bad or stupid, though. Take what I just wrote, for instance: there are countless examples of people who have worked hard, dedicatedly, sometimes all their life, but achieved nothing. That would be evidence that my previous statement is incorrect (which, btw, it is). But I need to push those examples of failure to the back of my mind and focus on the equally numerous instances where people worked and therefore succeeded.

That's faith, to me: actively shaping my representation of how the world works, to suit my purpose. It is, to some extent, irrational. But I know it is, so I'm still in charge.

I agree very stongly with this Melhael

what we could say is than faith Is a state of human Phscology (mind). I may get shot down in flames here.

I've a sporting back ground and may have experince 'faith' in many diffrent ways faith in a persons skill level or you own. Faith in equipment (climbing ect)
faith that you make the right descision and some time in the outdoors that can be the one that don't get you injured /killed by your own hands.

so I think the term faith on its own is very much down to the individual. I would say that i have no religouse faith . I do have Faith though does that make sense.

[Melhael]

Mostly I have faith in life. That living my life, from birth to death, is somehow worthwhile. And that faith is confirmed through experience. So far life has been worthwhile, so my "faith" is justified through experience.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Or so I hope, because I'm telling myself the same thing.)

[Oneonine]

I haven't read the whole thread because I'm confused at the outset. Who or what are we reclaiming the idea of faith from?

Is it something to do with the definition of faith in dictionaries? And all the words like it that are subtly different? The english language has a huge vocabulary, with many words having similar meanings, with slight differences. If you can't find a word to express what you mean, buy a bigger dictionary. Trying to change the meaning of a word already in common usage another way is confusing and futile, in my opinion.

[Melhael]

As I wrote earlier, it's not about finding a new definition, but rather about stating what we have faith in. This is not the thread where we suddenly decide that "faith" in fact means "alarm clock".

The idea of "reclamation" is to voice our disagreement with the notion that "faith" only applies to the belief in god/s and their associated set of rules. That's not, anyway, what the dictionary states it is. Not primarily and not exclusively. In other words, we here affirm that Atheists too can have faith inside their spirituality. Faith in themselves, their abilities, the viability of their projects and in a set of values, those sorts of things.

[wolf560]

The idea of "reclamation" is to voice our disagreement with the notion that "faith" only applies to the belief in god/s and their associated set of rules.

Yes, I started this thread as a way of continuing a discussion in an earlier thread.
Someone had used the word "Faith" and it was morphing into a discussion about Christian "Faith" as a way of describing only that belief system.

I started this thread saying the by definition the word 'Faith' simply means to believe on something in the absence of proof.

Too many Pagans I have run into in the past have gotten all twisted about with the term 'Faith'. It has become negative in one way or another to a great many of my Pagan friends. When I would tell them them that "...they have a great amount of Faith" I would get a lot of flak back some actually telling me that they were "no longer Christian".

I feel that the term 'Faith' is a good description for anyone referring to a Spiritual Belief since none of can offer categorical proof of the existence of any of our Deities. That is not to say they do not exist and I am not trying to open up a discussion of whose Deities are real and whose are not..... I am simply saying that we all have a certain amount of "faith" that they do indeed exist.

In contrast "Faith" (by definition) is probably the wrong word to use when talking about something you are certain of. I think the word "Trust" might be a better word "I TRUST that the equipment will not fail because it has worked perfectly and was just checked by an engineer...". In the end, you can use either word in either context probably.

The "Reclamation of the idea of Faith" means that we as Pagans can also use it to simply say that we believe in something greater even though we may (or may not) have a very limited "proof of its existence'.

[Oneonine]

Oh well, hence my confusion. I never thought any differently, having used the dictionary definition of faith all my life, and being completely unaware anyone was trying to copyright it for their own exclusive use. I've always had a keen sense of when someone's dogma feels like pollution, and walked away the same as I do from second hand smoke.

[DJ Droood]

I've always had a keen sense of when someone's dogma feels like pollution, and walked away the same as I do from second hand smoke.

I would like to walk away, but sometimes it seems that "smoking" in public places is mandatory, they are giving out free cigarettes to our kids and non-smokers are libelled as "aggressive".

[wolf560]

Actually it's not so much about "walking away" as it is getting people to listen to what the other is saying. This entire thread was started in an attempt to show that words can cause all variety of issues if they are used (or felt) the wrong way.

I have had several very good conversations with Pagans as well as non-Pagans.
There is much to learn from one another if we can get past the idea behind some of the words that cause the greatest negative impact on a conversation.

Then again, that has always been my direction in life.... to get people to talk to one another and usually what I have to do is get each to recognize the validity (and hopefully some commonality) in the other.

The word "Faith" has been one of those words, and to some it is the "way of the righteous". Once I have gotten them to see that 'Faith' can take on many different aspects I can usually get them to talk to at least me, if not each another.

I have 'Faith' that we can all agree that this concept is a good one...

[Oneonine]

Smoking in public places is banned in the UK now. Advertising is strictly controlled to avoid pushing smoking on kids too.

[DJ Droood]

Smoking in public places is banned in the UK now. Advertising is strictly controlled to avoid pushing smoking on kids too.

yes...I was just sort of expanding on your original analogy and comparing religion to smoking...

(

I've always had a keen sense of when someone's dogma feels like pollution, and walked away the same as I do from second hand smoke.

)

...both are health-endangering pollutions, but smoking/smokers are easier to get away from and no longer socially acceptable. I am a firm believer in social evolution, even though it seems painfully slow sometimes.

[Oneonine]

People see the law now, and dont demonise anti-smoke campaigners as the party poopers and aggressive ones anymore, is what I mean.

We have a dictionary defination, if someone uses "faith" outside of that, or wants to say they have faith and others have belief, why not just treat it the way you would any other spelling, pronunciation, or usage mistake. Correct it if you are the kind to do that, ignore it, or carry on in a way making clear the correct usage.

In no way give CREDENCE to the misuse. Quote the dictionary and let them know they are making an uneducated misuse of a word.

[wolf560]

The reason I started this thread was to get people talking about this occurrence.

I have had way too many Pagans in the past tell me that "Faith is for Christians".
I wondered if anyone outside of the last thread had seen the same thing.

Since, on that thread, many of us had started talking about it, we all decided to begin a new thread to discuss the concept in detail.

I just went to a Pagan gathering last night, and it happened again.
Several of us simply discussed it and the two people both admitted that they had recently left Christianity and perhaps they were still a bit "raw".

This is what this whole thread was supposed to be about.

How do we get past the concepts?
Why does it happen in the first place?
Can we shift perceptions in this, and for that matter SHOULD we?

For people on a solitary path, perhaps this is not something they see or have been exposed to. That topic was also raised last night and many people said that solitaires do not really understand group dynamics. Some of the solitaires agreed and some did not.

I am not going to say anyone is right or wrong for doing this, nor am I trying to start a fight. I said I would start this thread and so I did.

I think it comes down to tolerance on all sides and I believe that everyone should be able to sit together and evenly moderately discuss things without trying to belittle the other person. The concept of Faith is a topic near and dear to many peoples beliefs....

Personally I would not walk up to bunch of Christians walking down the road and try to correct them on their use of the term. Since Christians are not likely to find themselves at any of my gatherings I doubt I will have the chance to correct them. The only people that I will encounter will probably be recent people who have come to the Pagan Path.

I do not wish to cause problems with these recent Pagans so I will not take anything but a very very cautious and mentoring approach to their use of the word.

[FoxPhantom]

The reason I started this thread was to get people talking about this occurrence.

I have had way too many Pagans in the past tell me that "Faith is for Christians".
I wondered if anyone outside of the last thread had seen the same thing.

Since, on that thread, many of us had started talking about it, we all decided to begin a new thread to discuss the concept in detail.

I just went to a Pagan gathering last night, and it happened again.
Several of us simply discussed it and the two people both admitted that they had recently left Christianity and perhaps they were still a bit "raw".

This is what this whole thread was supposed to be about.

How do we get past the concepts?
Why does it happen in the first place?
Can we shift perceptions in this, and for that matter SHOULD we?

For people on a solitary path, perhaps this is not something they see or have been exposed to. That topic was also raised last night and many people said that solitaires do not really understand group dynamics. Some of the solitaires agreed and some did not.

I am not going to say anyone is right or wrong for doing this, nor am I trying to start a fight. I said I would start this thread and so I did.

I think it comes down to tolerance on all sides and I believe that everyone should be able to sit together and evenly moderately discuss things without trying to belittle the other person. The concept of Faith is a topic near and dear to many peoples beliefs....

Personally I would not walk up to bunch of Christians walking down the road and try to correct them on their use of the term. Since Christians are not likely to find themselves at any of my gatherings I doubt I will have the chance to correct them. The only people that I will encounter will probably be recent people who have come to the Pagan Path.

I do not wish to cause problems with these recent Pagans so I will not take anything but a very very cautious and mentoring approach to their use of the word.

Isn't Faith something that can also be followed by more then on religion?

[wolf560]

Yup..!!!!

That was exactly my point, I guess....

I kept running into Pagans that connected the word 'Faith' with Christianity only.
I decided (finally) to just put it on this board and see what happened...

I see "Faith" as the generic term for what we all have in whatever it is we believe in.

Atheists have faith that there is no Deity and that the world has its own thing
Agnostics have faith that nobody knows what is truly going on

..... and of course each individual deity-based belief has its own faith