My obstacle with italian pagans

[Eruannie]

I apologize in advance if my question may create controversy because it is not my intention, but I feel I must speak about this because it is an obstacle against which I find myself "fighting" all the time, especially speaking or comparing my beliefs with italian pagans.

I'm myself italian so I'd understand their objections, but I really can't. I try not to forget that each person have their own history in the past, their experiences certainly different from mine, but nonetheless I often fail to understand certain behaviors.

In my past there is an active presence in the Catholic religion. I have been very active in the parish and there was a time when I wanted to take vows and become a nun. Over time I have realized that Catholicism did not respond completely to my spiritual needs and so slowly I gave up the practice in the church, and I started the course here more for curiosity than a deliberate choice.

In the months of practice, I' ve understood that I've done the right thing and Druidry is entering in me like nothing else before.

The problem is when I read hate against Catholicism by italian pagans, as if in 2000 years of history there was nothing good in Christianity and most of all the time I find myself arguing against critics.

Of course it was not all positive ... like every religious tradition there are many mistakes and so many skeletons in the closets of the church, but I can not accept that everything is said to be completely negative by people who would be open minded.

In your site I have never found this hatred ... indeed, I have read wonderful articles by druids who have reassessed the good of Catholicism and Christianity in general.

I personally believe that every religion, every tradition some good because the divine sourse is the same!

This thing really so embittered me and keeps me from having peaceful relations with other pagans in Italy because as soon as I confess I love some aspects of Catholicism and to follow a Druidic tradition close to Christianity (christian druidry), I have been told that a druid can not be a Christian, that witchcraft have nothing in common with Christ...

I repeat, I never found this way of behaving in the english-language pagans. I think that the presence of the Vatican does not help, but I can not get over this thing.

Do you have any tips for me? Have you been in this situation?

To me there's nothing worse that someone who claims to follow a religion or philosophy with an open mind ... and behaves as bigoted and fundamentalist critics

[Frog]

Hello Eruannie!

Unfortunately in this world the interpretation of balance seems to be more of a pendulum than just achieving an equilibrium. Some groups will campaign not for "equal" rights as such - but more rights, to somehow obtain specialist provision for their minority requirements. The added complexity is that in some cases the majority will be reluctant to share - so you will get circumstances where people will push back harder.

I quite like this site because it does offer equality and balance; I find it useful that this is (in some respects) the No Mans Land, so people of all groups, cultures and beliefs can come together and discuss things as rational people.

Ultimately, all you can do is keep hold of your candle to light the way for those who are prepared to look with you.

[Lily]

OH, you would find that in many other countries. Same here (directly to the north of you).

It has to do with people re-acting against their roots which they haven't completely left behind,
with meeting mostly people who haven't been on the path long enough,
possibly the influence of catholicism being so strong in italy the re-action is also more violent than in more secular countries....

and if you believe the english-speaking ones are more enlightened, it might have to do with the fact that there are more of them around and they have access to more material, books, what have you, than any other language.
What books have been translated from english? only the most basic ones.

[Dendrias]

Yes, Lily, that must be right. I'm not in an English speaking country and haven't got any access to any real books. The bible has been translated from English, but that's it. People are not enlightened, at all.
In fact, people might seem to be more "enlightened" on first view, but I have read these reactions against christianity in here, as well.
But, I'm sure, Lily, You meant something different. And, of course, people here are very nice. I like coming here and talking.

[Lily]

I meant there's more people on this board overall, which means there are just numerically more enlightened ones than among the few people you meet on a non-english speaking community - real life or on line.


p.s. our bible surely has been translated directly from the latin and greek, without need to resort to the English version don't ya think?

Do you have any tips for me? Have you been in this situation?

To me there's nothing worse that someone who claims to follow a religion or philosophy with an open mind ... and behaves as bigoted and fundamentalist critics

I would recommend you to be patient until you have met more folks, you will meet some that aren't as immature, and when discussing spirituality, focus on the positive. For me, with the size of the "pagan scene" here it took several years until I had met more than a handful of people I really care to be with because they are genuine and enlightened.

[skh]

British (and probably north-american) paganism has also been around for longer -- 10, 20 or even more years longer. Viewed from the other side of the channel they're almost mainstream now

Give your italians a few decades, and in the meantime be glad that we have the internet and cheap travel, be a part of international OBOD, and spread the word of peace and tolerance.

And I'm not being sarcastic.

peace /|\
Sonja

[Dendrias]

Sorry, Lily. I've gone too far with my jokes, didn't I?
I know what You meant and want to apologise for childishly carrying it to the extreme.

[Lily]

I guess you did. Verarschen kann ich mich auch selber.

I've met my share of whackos and that has a lot to do with the lack of any decent info in German. You can find it, but you have to WANT to find it.

[DJ Droood]

On the plus side, you *do* have some original temples and shrines to visit!

[Dendrias]

Sorry, You're so upset, Lily. My Verarsche was meant very friendly. ( )
Look at me: I'm not even complaining about You thinking I was a complete idiot to think that the bible was translated from English. You must think that I am a very stupid guy.

[Lily]

Hardly, considering your job. Yep, I checked. But my sarcasm detector did not go off. that's what the internet does to you.
friends?
Seriously, the one book on druids you were likely to find in bookstores until maybe a few years ago, when one or the other of PCG's books was translated, would have been the 21 lessons of merlin, hardly anything you'd want to be using. But people did and believed the cr@p....

On the plus side, you *do* have some original temples and shrines to visit!

I think you are imagining a little too much. I mean, celtic temples? Haven't seen any....

[DJ Droood]

On the plus side, you *do* have some original temples and shrines to visit!

I think you are imagining a little too much. I mean, celtic temples? Haven't seen any....

I didn't say celtic specifically...pagan...and I don't have to imagine...I just visited the Temple of Saturn on Capitaline Hill, to name one of many...I mean, you can't sacrifice a chicken there anymore, but you can, as I said, visit...although I suppose the Pantheon covers the Celtic gods as well. It is a good place to be a Christian Druid too..in many churches you can pray to Jesus upstairs, then go downstairs and pay respects to the pagan gods in the basement.

No real advice re: your idiot friends, though...you find those sorts everywhere.

[treegod]

Eruannie, I understand this. I grew up with a Christian upbringing that was good and life-affirming. I associate it with lots of singing, happy faces and (mostly) comforting beliefs.

But living in a Catholic country (Spain), I understand the other side of it too and from where Italian Pagans come from.

Spain might be modernising but the shadow of things like the Inquisition, and even Franco's "Catholic Nationalism" hang over the country and its psychology. I also know a few people that have suffered at the hands of Catholicism.

If some Pagans find life difficult being open in English speaking countries. I heard of one person that couldn't even be open about being Protestant here! Another person was forced to practice corporal mortification as a child unto tears. That's the least of it.

From what I see there's is a big difference between the institution of the Catholic Church and the Christianity that it claims to represent. The Roman Catholic Church can claim on taxes depending on how many Spanish citizens are member of the Church. It has quite a hold on Spain (and the Popes recent visit was one of the least controversial). Yet another person I know, in order to stop her taxes going somewhere she didn't believe in she had to go for an interview with a Bishop! Which must be too intimidating for some nominal/ex-Catholics, so they just don't bother, which is a good state of affairs for Catholic funds.

Before coming to live in Spain I didn't really have this view of Catholicism so much. My example for Catholics are half my family, and they don't seem so bad. But since coming to Spain I've got a different experience of it, something less naive.

I still believe there's something "good" in Christianity, and that is something I have taken within me. And I can see goodness in some Catholic practices and symbols. I'm due soon for a pilgrimage to Monserrat to see the Black Virgin that's there.

When you say "Catholic", or Christian for that matter, it has a range of applications that are often all to grey. And some people experience the darker shades of grey and some the lighter shades. It needs and inquiring and understanding mind to see just how much grey there is, and what shade it might be.

[Eruannie]

I didn't say celtic specifically...pagan...and I don't have to imagine...I just visited the Temple of Saturn on Capitaline Hill, to name one of many...I mean, you can't sacrifice a chicken there anymore, but you can, as I said, visit...although I suppose the Pantheon covers the Celtic gods as well. It is a good place to be a Christian Druid too..in many churches you can pray to Jesus upstairs, then go downstairs and pay respects to the pagan gods in the basement.

Absolutely and it's what I do really! I have so many beautiful churches here ... and so becautiful pagan ancient temples ... often one on another! It's a bless to me really!

Thanks to you all really! At the moment I'm in a hurry but I'reply soon! Blessings!

[Attila]

I repeat, I never found this way of behaving in the english-language pagans.

You havent? Well I made a long running thread asking if Christianity has anything to do with druidry, although my views have softened quite a lot since then, we must remember that Christianity [as all abrahamic religions] are exclusive and have systematically replaced our culture and festivals etc, with that of their own. They don’t accept us so we cannot accept them as part of what we are, that said there is much we have in common and I think it is a good thing that we have both!

That said druidry is as different to Christianity as Buddhism is, I don’t see why it should be changed to compensate those differences. This is a hard line and we are not dogmatic so there is room to learn from each other and blend on a personal level, but for now we are realising what must be a new druidry and hence it is imperative that we find out what that is without becoming a branch of another religion.

Hatred for Christianity is too far, keeping them at arms length is necessary though.

In contradiction expect there has to be some amount of hatred in order to create difference ~ it’s part of the realisation process [of who and what we are]. I don’t mean to sound harsh but If people are looking towards druidry as a new expression of Christianity they should look elsewhere, no one tries to make Hinduism into Christianity so it shoudnt be done to druidry.

[DJ Droood]

Hatred for Christianity is too far, keeping them at arms length is necessary though.

but I love my mum and like hugging her...

[Eruannie]

If people are looking towards druidry as a new expression of Christianity they should look elsewhere

It is not seen in Druidism a new expression of Christianity, although many things are close, but simply recognize that there is good in it and decide not to reject it altogether.

Everything seems to be accepted ... you can be free to believe that the divine is manifest in female and male principles, you can mix Egyptian pantheon with the Roman one, you can believe only in a Mother Goddess, can be animistic ... everything is ok but decide to see the divine (which for me is the same under any name and tradition) in christian symbols and mythology. This is not forgiven. It makes sense that? For me not, if I know that everyone is free to see the divine as it feels more close to itself.

Jesus showed a way that is totally positive, although it has often been distorted by men, so why should I give up that good that Christianity has, carrying on a centuries-old hatred that leads to nowhere?

Christianity may have been wrong in many things, but above all it is thanks to it so that Druidism was also transcribed and preserved, for better or for worse. Created universities, hospitals, helped so many people ignored by society and the poor ... and continues to do so.

I think there is much to retain and include in today's modern Druidism, without considering the Christian Druidism, a different druidism ... of course if you feel it's the right path for you.

And many articles here on the site dell'OBOD seem to give me reason. Im' not saying that everyone must walk along the path as I do, but that mine is is as good as others on druidry.

I hope I do not write wrong this things being difficult concepts for me to express in English.

[Attila]

but I love my mum and like hugging her...

Ha ok I should have said ‘it’ and not ‘them’.
In a sense druidry is a bit like that don’t you think? ~ that Christianity is a bit like a parent. Its like what the child is immediately from but is finding its own feet.

This is not forgiven. It makes sense that? For me not, if I know that everyone is free to see the divine as it feels more close to itself.

For sure, but the ancient druids didn’t even agree with roman paganism, they felt insulted by the imposition of the roman system upon the druidic one which was far more subtle [the deities were not so absolute etc]. Politically I wouldn’t accept Shariah law nor would I accept another religions vilification of ours, there are limits.

Believe in what ever one so wishes, given that it is not imposed upon another person nor druidry itself.

In fact we could see religions a bit like people in this way, none should impose themselves upon another.

Jesus showed a way that is totally positive,

As long as you follow the true god right! ..and if you are a man helps too. If you don’t go to him you don’t get into heaven etc. well lets not get into all that, I think its fair to say he was not a druid and that is enough. ...an interesting person if we see him as just that.

I wont also get into thanking Christianity for the preservation of druidry, that’s just absurd. I know it did but it was also the very thing which destroyed it, and what it saves it also reinterprets, you’ll find it hard to even read the works of the great greek philosophers without the term ‘god’ being thrown in left right and centre, even though they were clearly pagans and probably didn’t even have or use the concept of monotheism.

Hmm it may be more constructive to ask where the two traditions do cross.

I mean where?

[Dendrias]

Hasn't early modern druidism been christian? With full monotheism, ancient druids being perceived as christians without christ (precursors)? With christian values (fraternal, social) instead of power-mongering or sacrificing ritual? With a bible on the lectern?
Some of it: here. Aren't there common roots?

[Attila]

Aren't there common roots?

culturally, linguistically, 'racially', all europeans and indians etc have common ground and origins. there have been found mother earth statuettes of similar design from russia to italy and ireland etc etc.

Firstly I think contemporary druidry needs to find its own way, to use science and modern as well as ancient philosophy to recreate itself. Christianity is very limiting in this respect and is generally exclusive. Common roots yes, where do we find them? In Persian monotheism [where I believe the abrahamics got their idea of it from] or back further to Akhenaton. Should we not first decide if monotheism is right ~ which it is not.
There seamed to be a general theme where in the east Hinduism and Buddhism formed a singularity from the pagan religion around them, Hindu philosophers went with the notion of godhead and Buddhism simply removed all the gods [but still had deities].

I see no reason why we cannot intuit the basis of ancient british [or other] druidry, then blend it with universalism so as to get rid of the deficits of paganism, though I feel druidry already did that, we just need to ‘remember’ how.