My obstacle with italian pagans

[Eruannie]

I'm sorry Attila if i can't reply as I'd do if I colud write to you in italian. As I said I find it very difficult talking about this things in english.

Anyway ... I agree completely with with article and I make mine these words.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/theemerald/ChristianDruidry.html
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/theemerald/Bate.html
http://www.druidry.org/obod/druid-path/christianitydruidry.html (from the very site od OBOD).

I remeber how I was surprised to read the final blessing in the obod ritual ...

“May the blessing of the Uncreated One, of the Created Word and of the Spirit that is the Inspirer be always with us ...” obviously inspired by the opening verses of St John’s gospel.

I repeat I'm not saying that the only way it's the christian druidry, but simply that it's one of the way we can walk on the path of druidry. I'd like to be recognised as a fully member of it even if I believe in Jesus' words.

[Attila]

Perhaps try google translator its not perfect but it can translate whole pages of text.

“Some reflections on Druidic Christology
Rev. Alistair Bate – Jan. 2005;
If Druids are to be true to both our highest calling as human beings and to the traditionally tolerant, inclusive and universalist Druid tradition then we need to make “integration” our watchword for the next century at least“.

Sounds like the jewish multiculture agenda and yet in Israel they build walls two stories high between them and their neighbours and they don’t eat bacon. Druidry should be universal ~ truly universal!

“May the blessing of the Uncreated One, of the Created Word and of the Spirit that is the Inspirer be always with us ...”

Well yes that derives of the christian tradition, it’s a shame obod cant move on from such outdated ways of thinking. Sorry but it has to be said/debated or you would be disagreeing with your own post.
Would ancient druids say or chant such things?

Lets have a bash shall we;

‘May the blessing of the Uncreated One’

Presumes it is a person. Also presumes singularity and not universality. Does not ceugant [divine infinity] bless us at all times without question nor the asking of.

of the Created Word

Language is a layer on top of pure thought not beneath it. Our magic words work because they have a resonance with the more subtle natures. Perhaps archetypes are meant here rather than words, but my guess is that we are thinking of a man saying shizzle n stuff happens.

and of the Spirit that is the Inspirer be always with us

Within the context of the quote one must presume that spirit is of god, rather than nature, ceugant, the awens, universal spirit or just simply spirit.

..runs for cover

[Eruannie]

“May the blessing of the Uncreated One, of the Created Word and of the Spirit that is the Inspirer be always with us ...”

Well yes that derives of the christian tradition, it’s a shame obod cant move on from such outdated ways of thinking. Sorry but it has to be said/debated or you would be disagreeing with your own post.
Would ancient druids say or chant such things?

Why dont' we start sacrificing animals and (some sholars say the did) humans to be closest to the ancient druids too?

I think it's quite childish (and forgive me but that's what I think) expect to return to pre-Christian Druidism, since today's society and culture profoundly different and the druidic renaissance is born in a Christian context. For better or for worse we are all children of 2000 years of Christianity.

I may be wrong, I do not have all the answers, I started my path just a few months, but I do not think you can throw 2000 years of culture and history in the trash just because we carry a grudge for choices of people in the past.

[treegod]

I may be wrong, I do not have all the answers, I started my path just a few months, but I do not think you can throw 2000 years of culture and history in the trash just because we carry a grudge for choices of people in the past.

Hear, hear!

[DaRC]

There is a saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" - which means keeping the good whilst getting rid of the bad.

Whilst I can understand that people react against this I, personally, believe that it shows a lack of balance - which for me is the essence of druidry. It means they run the risk of becoming the same as those they would destroy.
IME it is wrong to be that adamant about 1000 to 2000 years of tradition which has been the foundation stone of the world we live in - for example would they propose destroying the Sistine Chapel? What about the works of Fra's Angelico and Lippi.

It is necessary to understand your past - so that you don't repeat the errors.
In this respect a reactionary knee-jerk against Christianity is akin to the fanaticism of the Protestant revolution which led to such abhorrences as the religious wars between Protestants and Catholics. More specifically OBOD is a Meso-druidic philosophy that arose from strongly Christian people.

Personally I have no problem with attending Christian services when required - usually at Xmas - because one of my patrons is Freyr whose name means 'The Lord' and is thus referred to in many hymns & psalms. So whilst a Christian might be referring to their Abrahamic Lord I can focus on my heathen one.

[DJ Droood]

Perhaps what we are seeking is equilibrium, rather than simply accepting the way things are now and calling it "balance".

1.
a state of rest or balance due to the equal action of opposing forces.
2.
equal balance between any powers, influences, etc.; equality of effect.
3.
mental or emotional balance; equanimity: The pressures of the situation caused her to lose her equilibrium.
4.
Chemistry . the condition existing when a chemical reaction and its reverse reaction proceed at equal rates.

It seems like a more active and involved word...like water seeking its level...whereas balance is the end result....and it gives one choice as to which course of action to take to achieve it. Perhaps a vigorous counter-reaction to Christianity is part of the process (for some). Seeking equilibrium isn't (always) choosing neutrality.

That said, I certainly have no problem accepting Eruannie as a fellow OBODian druid. She is finding her own course of action to achieve equilibrium.

[skh]

I repeat I'm not saying that the only way it's the christian druidry, but simply that it's one of the way we can walk on the path of druidry. I'd like to be recognised as a fully member of it even if I believe in Jesus' words.

The thing with OBOD is that it really is very accepting and doesn't impose a philosophy or world view on its members, let alone a religion or something like that. So from that perspective of course you are recognized as a full member of OBOD no matter what other beliefs you have, but other members share the same freedom, and you might encounter some who have a different view on christianity and its compatibility with druidry for whatever reason.

And naturally OBOD doesn't speak for "Druidry" as a whole, as no druid order does. It all boils down to personal choice -- if you say you are a christian druid, you are, period. If someone says you can't be, it's your choice to enter into a discussion, or to politely (or not so politely) ignore them.

peace /|\
Sonja

[BlackMoon]

I'm speechless ....


sono senza parole

[Eruannie]

Thaks to you all and thanks for letting me understand better how I can behave on the thing. I'm sure I have to work hard on the path, but now I feel better.

Many blessings!

I'm speechless ....

sono senza parole

Mee too ... many times.
Anche io ...sapessi quante volte!

[BlackMoon]

Thaks to you all and thanks for letting me understand better how I can behave on the thing. I'm sure I have to work hard on the path, but now I feel better.

Many blessings!

I'm speechless ....

sono senza parole

Mee too ... many times.
Anche io ...sapessi quante volte!

il mio non ho parole in verita era rivolto a te....
Druidi politeisti pagani, non possono e non devono essere associati al cristianesimo, ne al Rabbino Gesu...
e offensivo quello che dici....
Io sono pagana, e non amo l'accostamento del Druidismo al cristianesimo, non anno è non avranno nulla mai in comune.
Ho sei pagano ho sei cristiano.....
Non puoi essere Duido cristiano.......il cristianesimo boccia tutto quello che viene considerato " magia"....e scritto sulla bibbia.

Quello che dici tu e un gnostico..non un druido...
tu sei gnostica non druido...
non esistono druidi cristiani


I have no words in my truth was addressed to you ....
Polytheistic pagan Druids, can not and should not be associated with Christianity, nor to the Rabbi Jesus ...
offensive and what you say ....
I am pagan, and I do not like the combination of Druidism to Christianity, no year is not never have nothing in common.
I have six charged are a Christian .....
You can not be ....... DUID Christian, Christianity rejects all that is considered "magic ".... and wrote the bible.

What you say is a gnostic "
not a druid ...
you are no Gnostic Druid ...
Druids are not Christians

[Dendrias]

I know what You mean, BlackMoon! Online-translators can be so distorting!

But back to what You said:
What about monotheistic druids? And: What exactly is specifically druidic?

[Attila]

Firstly; as obod is the major order of druids, I feel it has a duty to represent druidry and not other religions, people come here to learn about druidry and not Christianity ~ I mean who the hell needs to know about that! Contemporary druidry is in the perfect position to create a new way, one based on the real world and not some ancient foreign deeply flawed text. [’foreign’ to druidry].

Why dont' we start sacrificing animals and (some sholars say the did) humans to be closest to the ancient druids too?

Or, let us build from the myriad of other less ‘concentrated on’ aspects of ancient druidry! not that I am particularly adverse to human sacrifice in the ancient context, ~ ‘let my soul bathe in eternities flame, and that of the iniquitous find their demise in that way‘ [an intuition spoken of the ancients]. Such is the old way and yes it is out of date now but so is Christianity!

I think it's quite childish (and forgive me but that's what I think) expect to return to pre-Christian Druidism, since today's society and culture profoundly different and the druidic renaissance is born in a Christian context. For better or for worse we are all children of 2000 years of Christianity.

I don’t want to return to the culture of that either, I am a contemporary druid and I think we should progress and not regress, what I seek to realise is a new down to earth enlightenment. Magic is timeless so no I don’t think it is childish to return to that [or to re-understand it], but to its ancient context yes it is.

I may be wrong, I do not have all the answers, I started my path just a few months, but I do not think you can throw 2000 years of culture and history in the trash just because we carry a grudge for choices of people in the past.

Yet those people are the ones who had the grudge against us! it is 2000 years of oppression against science and magic, and against the druidic religion.

Please don’t make the mistake that I am in any way against your preference and I agree with obod philosophy on this, but the thread title infers that the Italian pagans rejection of Christianity is an ‘obstacle’ to you. Surely there is not really any obstacle if you agree with obod philosophy? Just let them find their own path and don’t expect everyone to agree with you.

[Eruannie]

Thaks to you all and thanks for letting me understand better how I can behave on the thing. I'm sure I have to work hard on the path, but now I feel better.

Many blessings!

I'm speechless ....

sono senza parole

Mee too ... many times.
Anche io ...sapessi quante volte!

il mio non ho parole in verita era rivolto a te....
Druidi politeisti pagani, non possono e non devono essere associati al cristianesimo, ne al Rabbino Gesu...
e offensivo quello che dici....
Io sono pagana, e non amo l'accostamento del Druidismo al cristianesimo, non anno è non avranno nulla mai in comune.
Ho sei pagano ho sei cristiano.....
Non puoi essere Duido cristiano.......il cristianesimo boccia tutto quello che viene considerato " magia"....e scritto sulla bibbia.

Quello che dici tu e un gnostico..non un druido...
tu sei gnostica non druido...
non esistono druidi cristiani


I have no words in my truth was addressed to you ....
Polytheistic pagan Druids, can not and should not be associated with Christianity, nor to the Rabbi Jesus ...
offensive and what you say ....
I am pagan, and I do not like the combination of Druidism to Christianity, no year is not never have nothing in common.
I have six charged are a Christian .....
You can not be ....... DUID Christian, Christianity rejects all that is considered "magic ".... and wrote the bible.

What you say is a gnostic "
not a druid ...
you are no Gnostic Druid ...
Druids are not Christians

Ma guarda che l'avevo capito. Se ho scritto questo post è proprio perchè c'e' troppa gente come te in Italia che ama alzare muri, portare avanti rancore, odio ... e sono felice che hai risposto almeno ho la prova di quello che ho scritto.

Non dico che tutti debbano seguire questo percorso, ognuno ha alle spalle una propria storia, una propria esperienza, un proprio modo di vedere il divino, ma essedo presente una intera sezione dedicato al druidismo cristiano in questo board messages credo che all'OBOD questo percordo non crei problemi. Conosco tantissimi druidi cristiani attraverso facebook, tutti americani, canadesi o inglesi ...non sono la sola te lo assicuro.

Ma come ho detto per certi pagani si può scegliere si essere tutto tranne riconoscere il buono che c'e' nel cristianesimo e le affinità che ha con il druidismo moderno come lo conosciamo oggi. No quello non è perdonato e mi si attacca definendolo offensino se non di peggio.

Grazie a Dio (perchè io sono una druida cristiana monoteista) non sono tutti di questa pasta.

Benedizioni.

I' ve understood the meaning of you words. If I wrote this post is just because there too many people like you in Italy who loves to build walls, carry resentment, hatred ... and I'm glad that you answered at least I have proof of what I wrote.

I'm not saying that everyone should follow this path, every one have a own history, experience, beliefs, a own way to see the Divine, but if there is a entire section for Christian Druidism in this message board I think OBOD as many have said, don't have problem with this particulat path. I know many Christian Druids through facebook, all Americans, Canadians and British are not alone ... I assure you.

But as I said for some pagans (and in particulary I talk about italians) you may choose to beliefs in everything even mixin up several pantheon BUT acknowledge the good 'in Christianity and the similarities it has with modern Druidism as we know it today. No one is forgiven and you attack me, claiming I'm offending druidry or worse.

Thank God (because I am a Christian monotheist druid as many others on OBOD) are not all like you.

Blessings.

Please don’t make the mistake that I am in any way against your preference and I agree with obod philosophy on this, but the thread title infers that the Italian pagans rejection of Christianity is an ‘obstacle’ to you. Surely there is not really any obstacle if you agree with obod philosophy? Just let them find their own path and don’t expect everyone to agree with you.

You have a valid axemple about what I was talking above. But someone told me to ignore them and even I dont' like ignoring peolple I'll follow this tip.

Again ... thanks to all. Blessing

[Davin Raincloud]

This is a cut and paste of a previous post I've made:

************************************

Guess what folks? OBOD was founded by amongst others a Christian Druid.

Philip Carr-Gromm says this about Ross Nichols:

"...His viewpoint was eclectic, not limited - he was always studying, to the very end of his life - whether it was Qabala or Wicca or Sufisim. But he always remained a Christian and was a regular visitor to his local church. He was also an ordained deacon in the Celtic Church...."

Page 33. From: "The Elements of the Druid Tradition" by Philip Carr-Gromm. First Published in Great Britain in 1991 by Element Books Limited.

[Eruannie]

This is a cut and paste of a previous post I've made:

************************************

Guess what folks? OBOD was founded by amongst others a Christian Druid.

Philip Carr-Gromm says this about Ross Nichols:

"...His viewpoint was eclectic, not limited - he was always studying, to the very end of his life - whether it was Qabala or Wicca or Sufisim. But he always remained a Christian and was a regular visitor to his local church. He was also an ordained deacon in the Celtic Church...."

Page 33. From: "The Elements of the Druid Tradition" by Philip Carr-Gromm. First Published in Great Britain in 1991 by Element Books Limited.

You're "must" be wrong ... he can't be a Druid ... he was christian!!

Thanks David to remind this things

[Explorer]

Perhaps it is just a bit too much definition mixed with a bit too much fanatism, and a lack of perspective.

I'm not christian and never was, but my ancestors where for a 1000 years. And when I honour my ancestors then I also honour their beliefs because that was of great importance to them and part of them. Without adapting their beliefs myself. And I do the same with the christian druids I meet.

It seems pretty obvious that when people call themselves christians, and also participate in druid rituals, that they are not of the evangelical types that condemn you to hell for being pagan, or who want to burn you at the stake for practising magic. Perhaps your friends should get some perspective.

[Eruannie]

I'm not christian and never was, but my ancestors where for a 1000 years. And when I honour my ancestors then I also honour their beliefs because that was of great importance to them and part of them. Without adapting their beliefs myself. And I do the same with the christian druids I meet.

It's one of the reason why I want to follow this path. It's part of my past, of my ancestor, of the culture of my country and history. Obviously as you wrote Im' not an evangelical type who condemn ... I simply see jesus, the prophets, saint like St. Francis as guides, teachers that help me to see the divine even under a different point of view. I dont' see Jesus ad son og god literally, but a man who was (like others in the history) fully illuminated by the divine, a man who lived trying to share that spark with the people of his people and his culture and who preferred to die rather than deny it all, showing a strong force of love for all humanity.

And like Jesus, for example I love to read and follow the teachings of saints like St. Francis who loved and praised God for Creation, which followed a life of poverty and simplicity, improvised dancing and singing in the woods ...

What 's bad in wanting to include these aspect in Druidism I do not understand ... because personally I do not find a differences.

[Explorer]

What 's bad in wanting to include these aspect in Druidism I do not understand ... because personally I do not find a differences.

Neither do I.
Saint Francis was practically a druid as I understood it. As an atheist I don't know much about saints, but I am a hiker, and I once hiked a trail from Assisi to Rome. I never reached Rome, but I had some fascinating encounters on that path and I must say that I quite liked Francis after that.
And Jesus seems a peaceful hippy with a broad and tolerants views to me. I don't see why those wouldn't be valuable 'inner teachers' for christian druids, that is no stranger than the things the gwersi come up with.

It is the fanatics that screwed things up, and turned spiritual wisdom into dogma and ultimate truth. And those who didn't agree became the heretics who needed to be condemned. But now your friends seem to do the same thing. They create their own dogma and ultimate truth, and now you are the heretic.
But this has nothing to do with christianity or druidry, just with people. There are fanatics everywhere. The antidote is patience, tolerance and education.

OBOD druidry is not a religion, but a mystery school, a spiritual path to personal empowerment. Big words, but it means that you can choose your own reality ;-). You can just as easy wear your christian sandals on that path as my atheistic hiking boots.

I must say though, if these 'friends' of yours are the beautiful young ladies who danced for us in Glastonbury two years ago, then forget everything I said, then I switch sides and forgive them everything

[Eruannie]

I must say though, if these 'friends' of yours are the beautiful young ladies who danced for us in Glastonbury two years ago, then forget everything I said, then I switch sides and forgive them everything

[Huathe]

Eruannie,

Keep strong in your Christian-Druid faith. Dispite the critique of some others it can be done. The rules may be a bit different for Christians than pagans but it can be done. I have found it quite rewarding.