My obstacle with italian pagans

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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Arth Frown » 23 Nov 2010, 23:41

Attila wrote:
I'm still thinking about morals.


:) Here’s something to carry on with…

I went to a chippy the other day and the Portuguese chap [I couldn’t understand what he was saying] said; ‘I have only the language god gave me’.

Well if god gave us language we would surely all speak the same one. Secondly his parents/school/culture gave him language, and they got it from their ancestors, so on and so forth, god never gave him language. Now try to imagine anything at all in the world where something similar is not also true about what god gives us!


Or you don't know what god means to him?
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Arth Frown » 23 Nov 2010, 23:48

Dendrias wrote:When I came here, I expected to find polytheistic pagans as well - thank the gods I didn't find self-righteous stubborn dogmatics without any mission, but with the capability to have an argument and listen to whatever other side there may be. Some are different, though.

And sometimes, it's the real witty and wise people that leave. Not to my entertainment, of course. Only the best leave young, they say.


I compare it to be at a international airport. Lots of people speaking lots of languages and different religions.

A stranger in a strange land.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Huathe » 24 Nov 2010, 06:55

Attila,

Christians are for the most part a minority in druidry, but I feel you are missing a very important point. The reverence of the natural world is supposed to be the very core of druidry and that can stand true whether the druid is Christian or Pagan. If that is remembered then peace and respect come easy.

Another thing, if you do not like a druid organization which allows Christians to enter into training then why don't you choose one that is pagan only? Like ADF.

It seems you and DJ have a chip on your shoulder concerning Christians. I know and respect your opinions but still must you be so judgemental and disrespectful? I know that druidry was originally pagan in ancient times. But things do change, even if it is to your disapproval.

It seems that wherever religions intermingle there is always strife. It is a major cause of war. People just cant set aside their differences. One would think druids could.....
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby FoxPhantom » 24 Nov 2010, 07:52

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:Attila,

Christians are for the most part a minority in druidry, but I feel you are missing a very important point. The reverence of the natural world is supposed to be the very core of druidry and that can stand true whether the druid is Christian or Pagan. If that is remembered then peace and respect come easy.

Another thing, if you do not like a druid organization which allows Christians to enter into training then why don't you choose one that is pagan only? Like ADF.

It seems you and DJ have a chip on your shoulder concerning Christians. I know and respect your opinions but still must you be so judgemental and disrespectful? I know that druidry was originally pagan in ancient times. But things do change, even if it is to your disapproval.

It seems that wherever religions intermingle there is always strife. It is a major cause of war. People just cant set aside their differences. One would think druids could.....


I thought druids can, since I remember about them having a strong sense to know when to fight, or when peace is needed.
Sad though, in this reality, there will always be war, suffering, and hate towards other nations, religion, or whatever something has against.

At any point, I guess the way (not the only way) to find peace with others is to follow wherever it goes, it can appear on a mountain top, in a bush, anywhere. But until that present moment comes, it's where everything is in it's own nightmare.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 14:19

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:It seems that wherever religions intermingle there is always strife. It is a major cause of war. People just cant set aside their differences. One would think druids could.....


apparently not, though...people keep trying to shoe-horn their various "religions" into druidry, bringing the inevitable strife you so correctly point out. Perhaps druidry should post a sign at the door....

"Please leave your fairy tales in the pink elephant's foot umbrella holder at the door...thank you." In fact, one of the wiser streams of druidry...The Ancient Order of Druids, had it right in their rules book, that discussions of religion and/or politics (no difference, really) were not allowed during their meetings. Very wise.

Perhaps it is time for a schism....In one camp "Theistic Druidry", where godly folks could discuss the things that matter to them..."Who is fatter, Father Christmas or the Dagda?"...or whatever the pressing theistic issues of the day...and then simply "Druidry", where natural philosophers could look at the universe and our place in it and spirituality in a rational, thoughtful way.

Let's put it to a vote!
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Huathe » 24 Nov 2010, 17:29

DJ,

As you have said, some druid organizations have put signs at the door barring Christians. That is ok. That is their opinion, rule and their right to do so. Christians don't have an Official " druid " organization as of yet, but they have one that is very close, the Ecumenical Companions of Sophia http://ecosophian.wordpress.com/. They were founded by an Anglican Priest and their teachings merge Christianity with an enhanced spiritual awarness of Mother Earth. They do not call themselves " druids " but have some druidlike qualities though I have not seen any Celtic teachings in their work. But I know little of them, I just learned of them last week. But anyway, if you seek a path of druidry that does not include Christians in the group than why are you here? ADF or AODA may be a better choice for you. No body is twisting your arm to mingle with a very few " imposing " Christians here?

Also, what about other faiths in druidry? How do you feel about them? How about Atheist Druids? Would you want them excluded too or is it just a vendetta against Christians?

I hate conversations like this. They detract from what is most important thing about druidry. Mother Earth! I did not follow a path into druidry to convert anyone to Christianity or to preach on it. But I will defend my faith if I am provoked, but in a respectful way. I do not hurl religious insults here to anyone. And if ALL druidic organizations started banning Christians I would still follow druidry, on my own. I have found my path and on it I will stay.

With some of the stuff posted here, I wonder how well this BBS is moderated?
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 18:39

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:I hate conversations like this.



yet you still managed an impressive word count!
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Merlyn » 24 Nov 2010, 18:56

ChristoWicaAthiestetc. Druids....
from
Obsticles with Italian Pagans...

Seems a weeee off track, me thinks...

So why not Happy Thanksdruid day? :-)
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 19:13

Merlyn wrote:So why not Happy Thanksdruid day? :-)


Seriously?...you are celebrating the start of the destruction of traditional Native American cultures with the arrival of Puritain cultists by eating factory farmed Turkey?

What is happy about this day, Merlyn?? What?? And why does your god hate poultry so??

:gulp:
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Arth Frown » 24 Nov 2010, 19:30

DJ Droood wrote:
Hawthorn_Ent wrote:It seems that wherever religions intermingle there is always strife. It is a major cause of war. People just cant set aside their differences. One would think druids could.....


apparently not, though...people keep trying to shoe-horn their various "religions" into druidry, bringing the inevitable strife you so correctly point out. Perhaps druidry should post a sign at the door....

"Please leave your fairy tales in the pink elephant's foot umbrella holder at the door...thank you." In fact, one of the wiser streams of druidry...The Ancient Order of Druids, had it right in their rules book, that discussions of religion and/or politics (no difference, really) were not allowed during their meetings. Very wise.

Perhaps it is time for a schism....In one camp "Theistic Druidry", where godly folks could discuss the things that matter to them..."Who is fatter, Father Christmas or the Dagda?"...or whatever the pressing theistic issues of the day...and then simply "Druidry", where natural philosophers could look at the universe and our place in it and spirituality in a rational, thoughtful way.

Let's put it to a vote!



And there's me thinking druidry doesn't have dogma
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 19:47

Arth Frown wrote:And there's me thinking druidry doesn't have dogma



Since we all get to imagine our own druidry, yours can be 100% dogma free.

(I just don't see how someone carrying a bag of dogma from their religion into druidry keeps it dogma-free...those that hate dogma would be at the forefront of keeping religion out of druidry, I would think...)
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Arth Frown » 24 Nov 2010, 20:27

DJ Droood wrote:
Arth Frown wrote:And there's me thinking druidry doesn't have dogma



Since we all get to imagine our own druidry, yours can be 100% dogma free.

(I just don't see how someone carrying a bag of dogma from their religion into druidry keeps it dogma-free...those that hate dogma would be at the forefront of keeping religion out of druidry, I would think...)



I don't think druidry is a stand alone thing. Just a add on to whatever you follow.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Huathe » 24 Nov 2010, 20:30

DJ, Religion has always been a part of Druidry. Read of the accounts of the ancient druids and you will know that. The main difference is today it is much more religiously diversified. And I agree with you. Maybe I was too wordy. I would have been wiser just to have ignored this conversation entirely.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Attila » 24 Nov 2010, 21:22

Arth Frown

Or you don't know what god means to him?


that’s irrelevant, he learned his language in the same way as the rest of us did ~ from our families and cultures, this is a simple fact. Unless you can prove otherwise? We could read the influences on the brain if there was something actual occurring other that that, my guess is that you could never find an example of god literally teaching someone language, he certainly didn’t for me an most others so why would he choose only a few individuals and why not teach them all the same language, does he not want them to get on.

Hawthorn_Ent

The reverence of the natural world is supposed to be the very core of druidry and that can stand true whether the druid is Christian or Pagan. If that is remembered then peace and respect come easy.


Well Christianity is somewhat at odds with nature [beasts etc], more than that I would say druidry is universal and Christianity is exclusive and specific.

A conspiracy theory; William Blake’s greatest work was reportedly pagan, and yet it went missing and is forever lost. My suspicions are that Christians only wanted the works they accepted to survive. Equally, most works by the great ancient Greek philosophers mention ‘god’ [?] many times, its even in the Egyptian book of the dead many times [both were pagan]. The Christians attempt to convert everything from our culture [festivals etc] and other pagan cultures to how they want them to be perceived.
Do you really think there are no agenda’s going on? Even the very thing of believing in another religion and trying to bring it into ours is itself an agenda. I wouldn’t have accepted it into Buddhism when I was a Buddhist, even though we generally got on very will with Christians, so can druidry not afford itself the same distinction.


It seems you and DJ have a chip on your shoulder concerning Christians. I know and respect your opinions but still must you be so judgemental and disrespectful? I know that druidry was originally pagan in ancient times. But things do change, even if it is to your disapproval.


I am a progressive and a contemporary druid, I neither think the ancient gods nor the monotheistic god are effectual in the world, hence I look to what the ancient druids saw behind the veil [ceugant and the awens] for an impersonalised and non-anthropomorphic perspective.

Let us not make circular arguments, people on both sides are guilty of disrespect.

It seems that wherever religions intermingle there is always strife. It is a major cause of war. People just cant set aside their differences. One would think druids could.....


Very true, so what’s the answer? We could say that respect for each other would be enough, alas it is not. If e.g. Islamic culture insists there should be Shariah law, and celtic culture says women should be free and equal [or at least modern secular culture does], then there will be conflicts of interest. What we have to do is gradually remove false philosophies like Shariah law [for reasons stated previously], or 'our god is better than your god' etc, then eventually people can just be people!

FoxPhantom

I thought druids can, since I remember about them having a strong sense to know when to fight, or when peace is needed.


that’s an excellent point!

DJ Droood

I just don't see how someone carrying a bag of dogma from their religion into druidry keeps it dogma-free


Haha nice one!
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 23:13

Arth Frown wrote:I don't think druidry is a stand alone thing. Just a add on to whatever you follow.


Yes, I know.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 23:16

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:Read of the accounts of the ancient druids and you will know that


Thanks for the tip! What book is on the top of your list to explain this too me in clear, simple words? Well, second from the top :wink:

I would have been wiser just to have ignored this conversation entirely.


20/20 hindsight, eh?
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Nov 2010, 23:25

Attila wrote:I am a progressive and a contemporary druid, I neither think the ancient gods nor the monotheistic god are effectual in the world, hence I look to what the ancient druids saw behind the veil [ceugant and the awens] for an impersonalised and non-anthropomorphic perspective.


I just came back from walking my dog under the late afternoon sun...frosty and brilliant....and I thought that I don't need the gods for the sun to make sense, but the gods don't make any sense at all unless the sun lends them meaning. This seems to me to be logical proof that all gods, save for Sol Invictus, are false.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Huathe » 25 Nov 2010, 06:47

Attila,

I agree, Christianity has fallen short on " beasts " and the reverence of the natural world. That is one thing paganism has an upper hand on. That is a major reason I have chosen to follow a druidic path. Druidry has the potential to align me more spiritually with nature than Christianity alone ever could.

And, yes, DJ. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby Merlyn » 25 Nov 2010, 17:11

factory farmed Turkey
:-)

Heaven forbid we add factory farmed corn, beans, bacon, onions, wheat, barley and cook the poor things eh?
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... test=faces
“If Brad wants turkey, he will have to cook it himself,” a family friend said. “For Angie, it will be another day when America tries to rewrite history.”



I imagine if I do a little more changing, I could have a Happy St. Dragons day, a Merry Dagdamas and a few other reasons to celebrate the normal progression of life and ignore all the impositions made over the past couple thousand years.

Imagine... :idea:
I could simply ignore the "thanks for nothin'" day and celebrate a love of all existences..
It might catch on, and for the feast, a nice locavore setting from local farms.

It is a pain in the arse that we have to bear such immoral injustice as transposed on our natural days we all share.
But to give in and allow it, far worse....

Happy ThanksDruid day! :merlyn:
Thank a druid today for working to bring peace to the ways of spiritual growth.
Hey, they took our Yule and made it into Christmas, and so on with Easter...

It is high time to take our days back!
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
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ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: My obstacle with italian pagans

Postby DJ Droood » 25 Nov 2010, 17:34

Merlyn wrote:Happy ThanksDruid day!



Tofurkey..The Druidic Alternative:

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