The Atheist Druid

[DJ Droood]

Ah yes, but is this druidry?

A small slice.

Cool avatar BTW

thanks

[cursuswalker]

I reckon we should give Athiest Druids a hard time. Start a thread where we say they aren't real Druids. They just don't get it!

I double dare you.

This shall be Sport...

[cursuswalker]

Ah yes, but is this druidry?
Cool avatar BTW

An atheist Druid can:

Honour their Ancestors
Love the gods of their Ancestors and study the lore and mtyhs associated with them
Care for the environment
Take part in druid ritual

So.......yes.

[Huathe]

Ah yes, but is this druidry?
Cool avatar BTW

An atheist Druid can:

Honour their Ancestors
Love the gods of their Ancestors and study the lore and mtyhs associated with them
Care for the environment
Take part in druid ritual

So.......yes.

Cursuswalker, I agree, as a Christian Druid I feel the same, even though my beliefs are different from my ancestors. While I can't quite say I " love " the gods of my ancestors, except the Christian one, I do study the myths and lore associated with them. By studying ones ancestoral beliefs one forms a bond with those long passed.

Care for the environment is GOOD!

How is an atheist ritual done? On a pagan or Christian one, a deity is usually involved. I would suppose an atheist would center it exclusively on the natural world. Life itself has an energy, a spirit if you will, all it's own. Is it that that is connected to during ritual? Or is rituals just a simple way of giving thanks to the physical natural world? I am just trying to understand it.

You are really helping me understand the views of the Atheist Druid. Thanks.

[cursuswalker]

Ah yes, but is this druidry?
Cool avatar BTW

An atheist Druid can:

Honour their Ancestors
Love the gods of their Ancestors and study the lore and mtyhs associated with them
Care for the environment
Take part in druid ritual

So.......yes.

Cursuswalker, I agree, as a Christian Druid I feel the same, even though my beliefs are different from my ancestors. While I can't quite say I " love " the gods of my ancestors, except the Christian one, I do study the myths and lore associated with them. By studying ones ancestoral beliefs one forms a bond with those long passed.

Care for the environment is GOOD!

How is an atheist ritual done? On a pagan or Christian one, a deity is usually involved. I would suppose an atheist would center it exclusively on the natural world. Life itself has an energy, a spirit if you will, all it's own. Is it that that is connected to during ritual? Or is rituals just a simple way of giving thanks to the physical natural world? I am just trying to understand it.

You are really helping me understand the views of the Atheist Druid. Thanks.

Well I have varied very little from the standard OBOD model, except that I do not address things that I do not think exist. So "mark o spirit and hear us now" becomes "May all who can hear us now". I also miss the opening "Grant oh god and goddess thy" off the druid prayer.

The Caer Abred wiki has a page on suggested rituals for naturalists:

http://caerabred.wikispaces.com/NATURALIST+DRUID+RITUAL

[Huathe]

Cursuswalker,

Thanks, I will check out that link.

[Heddwen]

It has learned not to...

I think I would say 'evolved' or "matured'.

Does this mean that you think that atheist druids transcend deity?

That's very interesting Cursuswalker, but I'd still like to explore the above.

[Pacific Druid]

For so many the term Atheist is a yes or no question, but for me it is definitely shades of grey.

Do I believe in a God or Gods who are sentient, knowing, and watching... especially watching us? No, not really.

Do I believe in spirit of place and the energy and life force of all there is to be manifest as Brigit or the Oak God or just plain wonder? Sure, and that is what I connect to in my path as a Druid.

I also believe that each of us has a true path, and those that do connect with a sentience where I do not walk in a light as bright as my own.

Pacific Druid
/|\

[Arth Frown]

Sorry a couple of question that I need clearing up.

Does a atheist druid who loves the gods of their Ancestors, love Jesus Christ and his Dad?

Also how does a atheist druid define honour?

[Nicholaas]

Sorry a couple of question that I need clearing up.

Does a atheist druid who loves the gods of their Ancestors, love Jesus Christ and his Dad?

Also how does a atheist druid define honour?

As an atheist who happens to happens to try to follow a druidic path, I'll chime in on this one.

To the first question, that is entirely up to the individual. One thing I've noticed about Druidry is that it's a very personal experience; results will vary for each. However, most atheist Druids tend to not honor any god beyond its archetypal/historical/cultural interpretation. To do more would not really be atheism. As for the god of Abraham and the Christian Jesus, again, up to the individual. One may try exemplify some of the virtues attributed to Jesus in the New Testament (care for the poor, etc) while not actually thinking he was anything more than a man, for example. As for the god of the Hebrew Bible, well, from what I recall he wasn't a guy I'd like to emulate.

To the second question, honor is many things to many people: to me, it's essentially how one acts in the world. (Living up to a certain set of standards, etc.) This is a concept that doesn't require any divine element, and can be found in secular philosophies. An atheist of any persuasion with a sense of honor has such because of its direct effect and relation to the people in his life. No deity required.

[DJ Droood]

One may try exemplify some of the virtues attributed to Jesus in the New Testament (care for the poor, etc) while not actually thinking he was anything more than a man, for example.

or perhaps even a story....(although I personally think there is a man lurking in the mists)

Which makes a question like "Does this mean that you think that atheist druids transcend deity?" an odd one to try to answer. You could say "Does this mean that you think that atheist druids transcend the Power Rangers?" In a way,no...the average athiest druid (and pious Christian and irreverant Hindu) doesn't have the same place in the zeitgeist, but being real people, we all transcend those characters, so yes.

[Nicholaas]

One may try exemplify some of the virtues attributed to Jesus in the New Testament (care for the poor, etc) while not actually thinking he was anything more than a man, for example.

or perhaps even a story....(although I personally think there is a man lurking in the mists)

Which makes a question like "Does this mean that you think that atheist druids transcend deity?" an odd one to try to answer. You could say "Does this mean that you think that atheist druids transcend the Power Rangers?" In a way,no...the average athiest druid (and pious Christian and irreverant Hindu) doesn't have the same place in the zeitgeist, but being real people, we all transcend those characters, so yes.

Absolutely. I was feeling generous referring to him as a man rather than a myth.

On my more crotchety days, I tend to think atheists have indeed transcended the need for religious beliefs. Days like today, where I'm feeling significantly less argumentative, I just think we look at the world in a different way. Most of the time, though, I'm somewhere in the middle.

[Heddwen]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will say that the ' shades of grey' explanation does seem to make sense, it's more than a black and white thing. I can see from this board that the atheists here believe in some things and not others, although I find it difficult to understand at times. For example, an atheist that believes in magic.

Of course, we transcend the things that we do not believe have religious significance, but if, as druids, we believe in the sanctity of nature, then everything has a spiritual element (although not the Power Rangers!)

My original question - do you think atheist druids transcend deity? referred to Kernos' quote about having 'matured' or 'evolved' . From what to what ? Does this mean that atheists have evolved beyond religion ? Is this something we will develop into like some sort of atheist ascended masters?!

A lot of questions, I know, but I'm really interested in this

[DJ Droood]

I can see from this board that the atheists here believe in some things and not others, although I find it difficult to understand at times.

I think it is hard to speak of "the athiests" as if they were some sort of collective...*all* atheist means is, loosely, *rejection of belief in the existence of deities*. Outside of that, I think beliefs can be pretty wide ranging..even inside that, there can be lots of philosophical step-dancing...so I wouldn't expect any kind of conformity of opinion on anything.

I think it is somewhat easier with Christianity...there is The Nicene Creed, which has been established as a benchmark of Christian belief for centuries.

Of course, we transcend the things that we do not believe have religious significance, but if, as druids, we believe in the sanctity of nature, then everything has a spiritual element (although not the Power Rangers!)

really? Why not the Power Rangers? How are they uniquely devoid of spiritual properties, when other imaginary characters, like, say, Moses, have these properties? I, personally, think everything from Power Rangers to rocks to Moses have *some* spiritual element that could be recognized by humans.

My original question - do you think atheist druids transcend deity? referred to Kernos' quote about having 'matured' or 'evolved' . From what to what ? Does this mean that atheists have evolved beyond religion ?

Certainly it is an evolution beyond the belief in deities and supernatural powers...(I doubt any true atheist believes in supernatural magic...probably just metaphorical magic..the magic of a sunrise or surprise visit form an old friend...or maybe the complex workings of physics...string theory or something...that is easier to call magic because we are too dumb to understand the real answers, etc....I believe in *karma*, although I don't think "gods" have anything to do with it..I think it is a complex system I don't understand...and I can admit I may be dead wrong and it doesn't exist at all. ) I suppose an atheist could still be involved in religion....I'm pretty sure this Sunday there are lots of people sitting in church beside a spouse, checking messages on the iphone while the man in the dress at the front is going "bla bla bla, sex is evil, hate homosexuals."....or making an appearance at the Men's Christian Golf Prayer Breakfast because it is good for their careers. I am fairly certain there are many priests and preachers who are in it for the crystal meth and deviant sex as well, if the news headlines are to be trusted....not so much for "deity".

Is this something we will develop into like some sort of atheist ascended masters?!

You can only hope, and keep striving....the recalcitrantly ignorant may be immune, and will simply go extinct, but I think you show promise, Heddwen.

[cursuswalker]

Sorry a couple of question that I need clearing up.

Does a atheist druid who loves the gods of their Ancestors, love Jesus Christ and his Dad?

Also how does a atheist druid define honour?

In answer to the first question, of course. The pagan thing of not honouring the god of your most recent ancestors is b.s..

HAVING SAID THAT I still think it is right to lay into any superstitious belief that is used NOW to justify making people suffer or have power imposed upon them. Any gods that were to actually exist, and deserved honouring, would have no issue with this. And if they do not then my ire is just directed at beliefs of people alive now.

In answer to the question about honour, I think atheists define it in the same way as anyone else, just without the fear of supernatural entities looking over their shoulders. To this extent an atheist is arguably capable of being honourable than a theist, as honour should not derive simply from a fear of punishment.

[Kernos]

HAVING SAID THAT I still think it is right to lay into any superstitious belief that is used NOW to justify making people suffer or have power imposed upon them...

I liked the way Christopher Hitchens said this, if I'm reading you right ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11843586 ):

He said religions created a "celestial dictatorship" which was "greedy for praise from dawn to dusk".

[cursuswalker]

HAVING SAID THAT I still think it is right to lay into any superstitious belief that is used NOW to justify making people suffer or have power imposed upon them...

I liked the way Christopher Hitchens said this, if I'm reading you right ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11843586 ):

He said religions created a "celestial dictatorship" which was "greedy for praise from dawn to dusk".

Well that eternal need for praise, in tre modern world, is more a product of Chrislam (as I like to call it). But the principle of attacking any argument for making people suffer or be controlled applies to ANY superstitious belief, though pagans rarely express such views.

[Heddwen]

I can see from this board that the atheists here believe in some things and not others, although I find it difficult to understand at times.

I think it is hard to speak of "the athiests" as if they were some sort of collective...*all* atheist means is, loosely, *rejection of belief in the existence of deities*. Outside of that, I think beliefs can be pretty wide ranging..even inside that, there can be lots of philosophical step-dancing...so I wouldn't expect any kind of conformity of opinion on anything.

I think it is somewhat easier with Christianity...there is The Nicene Creed, which has been established as a benchmark of Christian belief for centuries.

Of course, we transcend the things that we do not believe have religious significance, but if, as druids, we believe in the sanctity of nature, then everything has a spiritual element (although not the Power Rangers!)

really? Why not the Power Rangers? How are they uniquely devoid of spiritual properties, when other imaginary characters, like, say, Moses, have these properties? I, personally, think everything from Power Rangers to rocks to Moses have *some* spiritual element that could be recognized by humans.

My original question - do you think atheist druids transcend deity? referred to Kernos' quote about having 'matured' or 'evolved' . From what to what ? Does this mean that atheists have evolved beyond religion ?

Certainly it is an evolution beyond the belief in deities and supernatural powers...(I doubt any true atheist believes in supernatural magic...probably just metaphorical magic..the magic of a sunrise or surprise visit form an old friend...or maybe the complex workings of physics...string theory or something...that is easier to call magic because we are too dumb to understand the real answers, etc....I believe in *karma*, although I don't think "gods" have anything to do with it..I think it is a complex system I don't understand...and I can admit I may be dead wrong and it doesn't exist at all. ) I suppose an atheist could still be involved in religion....I'm pretty sure this Sunday there are lots of people sitting in church beside a spouse, checking messages on the iphone while the man in the dress at the front is going "bla bla bla, sex is evil, hate homosexuals."....or making an appearance at the Men's Christian Golf Prayer Breakfast because it is good for their careers. I am fairly certain there are many priests and preachers who are in it for the crystal meth and deviant sex as well, if the news headlines are to be trusted....not so much for "deity".

Is this something we will develop into like some sort of atheist ascended masters?!

You can only hope, and keep striving....the recalcitrantly ignorant may be immune, and will simply go extinct, but I think you show promise, Heddwen.

well, i'm not so sure about that! Ok I see your point about the Power Rangers, I was coming from the belief that Moses was not imaginary, although what is real or imagined would probably form a whole new thread in itself. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people will be celebrating Christmas, even though they are not Christians too.

[DJ Droood]

well, i'm not so sure about that! Ok I see your point about the Power Rangers, I was coming from the belief that Moses was not imaginary, although what is real or imagined would probably form a whole new thread in itself.

I think the "faeries" thread is exploring that issue. I am comfortable with the idea of the world of imagination being a very real realm, with its own laws and rules, and I think people can travel between these worlds..the worlds of stories and songs and gods...personal worlds...and the world we seem to share...the world of sunshine and shadows. Perhaps the trick is not getting stuck in one or the other.

But I think Cursewalker makes a good point...the faeries and power rangers (and most other characters from people's very real and personal imaginary worlds) haven't been oppressing us for 1500 years.

In many cases, atheism isn't an anti-poetry and romance stance, it is a political stance...if someone wants to hit us on the head with their holy books and threaten us with its characters, we have no choice but to respond by destroying them with reason, a far more powerful weapon in this shared world.

[Heddwen]

Thought provoking insights DJ and I guess this is how those with atheistic/agnostic tendencies can work through the Ovatic grade. I think that it's healthy to maintain a skeptical outlook, religious or not, just to keep a little objectivity.
It's quite incredible to consider how all those years of the dominant religious mainstream still has a deep impact on our psyche, despite our political, cultural, spiritual and religious background. We must ensure that our voices are always heard.