Fairys... what are they?

[cursuswalker]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation.

Although I am personally happy to label it as the fifth environment of Druidry, it is still a gift that should be treated with caution in my view, so I cannot see it as an actual realm, as in place.

[wyeuro]

katie bridgewater wrote:
"There is a huge amount of lore in Britain to do with faeries, and almost all of it is about how to keep them away, how to rescue people they have kidnapped, how to make them leave you alone and how to keep them happy in the hope that they will not be unkind to you. They are generally depicted as having a very different sense of morality from humans. By all accounts, nothing is ever a gift, most things they provide have a price and my own experience has not given me any reason to doubt the wisdom of my ancestors on this. I advise caution, and care in all matters relating to the Fey."

I think Katie made an excellent point here (almost a year ago wow) and it doesn't seem anyone's responded to it.

The folklore or received wisdom is pretty much unanimous that almost all of these beings are at best unhelpful and troublesome and at worst vicious and murderous. Even the most beneficent among them, like tomtes, brownies and hobs, clearly the remains of pre-Christian household gods, have to be carefully appeased or they get grumpy and play very nasty tricks.

Wyeuro, Inis, and anyone else, how do your personal experiences with fairies compare to the stories about them?

Given that traditionally they are held to have either deceitful or even malevolent motives in their interactions with humans, if fairies are talking to you should you ever believe what they say?

the multifarious fairies are pretty much unanimous that human beings are 'at best unhelpful and troublesome and at worst vicious and murderous'.

'Even the most beneficent among them, like tomtes, brownies and hobs, clearly the remains of pre-Christian household gods, have to be carefully appeased or they get grumpy and play very nasty tricks.'

these are old superstitions, and not the result of modern encounters between canny seers and the little peoples. rather than pre-Christian gods it's much more likely that they were routed pre-Norman peoples victims of genocide, whose successors slandered them as much as they could. if disgruntled, minority groups can be tedious, and machievellian politics disposed of them peremptorily. little ethereal people are just as likely to be nasty or nice as big material ones.

there are so many such different kinds of beings called fairies. it's like saying all animals are bad because some dogs bite.

to me some of the wisest ones come across as very sad to be slandered so. they are kindly. i once announced after a consultation with spirit guides that i was willing to go under the enchantments necessary to see the 'little men' - a category i had settled on with their help. a brownies, leprechaun and small germanic mannlein moved in to a shrine built for them. i give them coffee daily, and see them often. they are easy to commune with. very sophisticated, very funny and very therapeutic. they teach me about fairies and their place in the world, in the scheme of things. a pixie inhabited my ute, a farm vehicle painted bright orange for high visibility on country roads. he was huge, scary, but funny, and very much a teacher, but he has 'lofty' if problematical morals and he did say that had i offended him he'd have tipped me and my ute over a cliff without a qualm. i believe it. i don't think my knowing he was there brought him here - i believe not being aware of the fairies leads to unresolved conflicts between us and that produces acts of warlike magic much more than seeking reconciliation. norse elves can get nasty, but they're reasonable if you respond amicably. the irish gruagach, or hairy fairies, are a sheer delight, and the mushroom ones are very shy and very gentle with your psyche and intellect - except the one that aren't

I know a person (in real life) who believes that in an earlier incarnation he has led a life in the faerie world (and still misses it a lot)

at the risk of credibility, the brownie told me that asimov was one of his race, incarnating to write the laws for robots. brownies are diminished brehonies - the pre-norman legal class, exterminated during the chaos of the conquest. they still are concerned with the laws - of the fairy worlds, which to them, include our own material world.

what are others seeing? it's so good to compare notes without being ridiculed.

[wyeuro]

Let's assume that such things exist, for the sake of argument.

Let's also assume that you see them in the same way you see anything else: by light reflecting off them and arriving on your retina. If this is the case then I should be able to see them too.

I love your orderly, logical approach, cursuswalker. have you read the holographic universe by Michael Talbot
Published by HarperPerennial/HarperCollins ISBN 0-06-092258-3 http://quanta-gaia.org/reviews/books/holoUniverse.html?
it isn't the final-answer theory that some claim it to be, but offers a simple explanation that fits the observations.

it suggests that the reason you don't see exactly what i see is to do with differences in the way we're tuned in to the entities that radiate what we do or don't perceive. we are physiologically unique, right down to the minute biochemistry of the subtleties of vision. one person filters out what another foregrounds, one person blocks what another enjoys as peripheral to normal vision, another includes the peripherals as normal. we have our own specialisations. the fairy sight is a very common specialisation, and persists despite generations of suppression, with every generation producing seers just as convinced as the last that their visions are real, the only detractors being people who have not seen fairies, and so know nothing of the experience they claim to know best how to interpret.

a radio station broadcasting at one frequency can't be picked up by a radio tuned in to another.

the retina of the human eye receives much more than light but only transmits to the brain data derived from those radiances within he spectrum of light. these data are translated into the visions we see of the world around us, which radiates and reflects light. but it doesn't reflect and radiate only light, it also reflects ethereal radiances, astral, and many more, all at different levels of intensity, different vibrational rates. a seer is receptive to this enrichment, and sees the permeating ethereal radiance as well.

to see only material beings you have to filter out the ethereal ones. when you don't, you see those beings who have no material bodies as part of the real world, no less real, wafty or imaginary than me or you.

so,

There are 3 other alternatives:

1) They actually emit, or reflect, another kind of light that one has to learn how to see.

2) some mechanism means that information about them is "added" to information coming into the eye and that, once again, one has to learn how to pick this up. This alternative also means that what you "see" may not be their true form of course. A chilling thought.

3) Hallucination.

Of these three alternatives only 3 has any evidence in it's favour that is consistent with the known, and reported, facts.

1) yes, that's right. they are made of the same substance as the 'light body', which is why care of and attunement to the light body is essential care of incipient or evolved second sight. when one is surrounded by fairies, the air and everything you see appears more brilliant, because you are opening your sensoria and seeing more of the rich interweaving of all the textures.

2) it's rather that 'normal' vision filters all but the spectrum of light out of our vision forcing us to focus on the material world. seers are people in whom these filters are not operating, so they see, hopefully selectively, and with kindly guidance. seers offer their cultures a 'one eye on the neighbours' role, and so let the materialists get on with what they are specialised for. we have been rare but may become more common now that appreciation of the material body is being accomplished and more of us are ready to move on.

3) hallucination is a word that means a vision someone has that someone else doesn't think is real. it's a bit of a cop-out really, and implies that is't possible to assess someone else's experience without having access to it. despite what the expert say, i suspect it of originally meaning 'visions caused by eating magic mushrooms', since hallux belongs to a whole raft of related words that all mean long pole-like thing, meaning everything from mushroom to penis, thumb to palace pole to - but halo- it just ain't (imo).

the fairy sight traditionally comes to those with a deep connection to the fey tradition, a dedicated approach to continuing it, and a willingness to work hard and consistently at perfecting their sensoria, a life-time of health-conscious living in close contact with the fairy worlds, giving your brain the best chance by keeping it clear, alert, well nourished (not overfed) and cared for, like people care for their electronic gear to keep it optimal. who would bother if not convinced and what would they get out of lying? it's alienating, could get you classed as insane, and every rationalist can make convincing cases against believing a word you say, but yet they are real, totally thrilling and i wouldn't live without them even if i could, which is doubtful, as they cling to believers with great strength and magic.



yeah, inis, you're talking it!!!!!!!!!

[treegod]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation.

it is still a gift that should be treated with caution in my view

Certainly. It was the human imagination that created the nuclear bomb. Or tells terrorists to blow themselves, and passers by, up.

so I cannot see it as an actual realm, as in place.

That's because to see it as such you need a well developed imagination. As a realm it's usually rather abstract and can't be located in time or space, though it can "leak" into time and space, usually through the human mind, especially artists.

Fairies might be imaginary, and I think they are but that doesn't make them unreal. The imagination is real so everything that Imagi-Nation contains is real.

[cursuswalker]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation.

it is still a gift that should be treated with caution in my view

Certainly. It was the human imagination that created the nuclear bomb. Or tells terrorists to blow themselves, and passers by, up.

Quite.

so I cannot see it as an actual realm, as in place.

That's because to see it as such you need a well developed imagination. As a realm it's usually rather abstract and can't be located in time or space, though it can "leak" into time and space, usually through the human mind, especially artists.

Fairies might be imaginary, and I think they are but that doesn't make them unreal. The imagination is real so everything that Imagi-Nation contains is real.

I wouls question your use of the word "real" there. The thoughts in which they appear are real. But does that make them real?

[treegod]

I wouls question your use of the word "real" there. The thoughts in which they appear are real. But does that make them real?

Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

Imagination may not exist as a "thing", but as a process it exists.

Fairies exist.

[cursuswalker]

I wouls question your use of the word "real" there. The thoughts in which they appear are real. But does that make them real?

Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

Imagination may not exist as a "thing", but as a process it exists.

Fairies exist.

We really are skirting the edges of reality here aren't we?

So what about those invisible stairs from your upstairs window? Do they exist? To the degree that you would use them rather than the front door?

[oaktree]

I have seen a faerie - what I later found out was an Earth Gnome.

BB

Oaktree

[cursuswalker]

I have seen a faerie - what I later found out was an Earth Gnome.

BB

Oaktree

How do you know it wasn't an alien?

[Jake]

the multifarious fairies are pretty much unanimous that human beings are 'at best unhelpful and troublesome and at worst vicious and murderous'.

Haha! Touché. At the risk of sounding like a misanthrope, I have to say I often agree with your multifarious fairies.

these are old superstitions, and not the result of modern encounters between canny seers and the little peoples. rather than pre-Christian gods it's much more likely that they were routed pre-Norman peoples victims of genocide, whose successors slandered them as much as they could. if disgruntled, minority groups can be tedious, and machievellian politics disposed of them peremptorily. little ethereal people are just as likely to be nasty or nice as big material ones.

there are so many such different kinds of beings called fairies. it's like saying all animals are bad because some dogs bite.

So do you think the old superstitions simply arose out of encounters with "unseelie" sorts or a bad apple or two? Or are they the result of the Church identifying fairies and pagan gods with demons? Something else entirely?

to me some of the wisest ones come across as very sad to be slandered so. they are kindly. i once announced after a consultation with spirit guides that i was willing to go under the enchantments necessary to see the 'little men' - a category i had settled on with their help. a brownies, leprechaun and small germanic mannlein moved in to a shrine built for them. i give them coffee daily, and see them often. they are easy to commune with. very sophisticated, very funny and very therapeutic. they teach me about fairies and their place in the world, in the scheme of things.

I'm interested in where you believe the fairies come from and how one identifies one type from another. When you said above that some fairies were pre-Norman peoples, do you mean they're ghosts or something more like archetypes given shape? What's the relationship between human culture and ethnicity and the origins, form and behavior of fairies? Are the English hob, the Russian domavoi and the Japanese zashiki-warashi the same beings called by different names or are they distinct entities? If the latter, why are they indigenous to one region or another? In other words, what makes one sort of fairy "Germanic," for instance, and another "Irish"? And how did they get to Australia?

Please forgive the ten million questions!

it's so good to compare notes without being ridiculed.

Hopefully nobody's comments here are intended as ridicule. I think we should be able to enjoy hearing about others' perspectives and experiences even if (or especially when) we don't share them.

[Jake]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation....
Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

I have a large and heavy piece of pottery in my living room. If you hit me over the head with it, I think I would definitely feel it. Would I feel it if you hit me over the head with a fairy?

If I shoot someone with an imaginary gun, will he die? If so, should I be arrested for murder? If not, is it because he imagined that I missed?

How long do you think I would survive eating imaginary food? Would a person survive longer on imaginary food than on no food at all?

I am in an imaginary wheelchair and my imaginary baby just fell into a non-imaginary pool of sharks. Will you jump in to save him?

[wyeuro]

i love what's being said about the ambiguity of what's real and what's imaginary. it gets especially interesting when you see our materiality as the manifestation of imaginative force-forms on a moment by moment basis. just one question:

Fairies might be imaginary, and I think they are

fairies are all kinds of different mostly human-like beings. we are one species of them. our reality is like one page of the book, one thread in the fabric of the time/space continuum. we have to be very secure in our own reality before we can interface with theirs in safety. but this varies and some we can't do without. so it's a matter of which of us are merely figments of the imagination of our species, and which are real? and we can't come to grips with that while these primary questions of what distinguishes reality from imaginary are answered.

i've struggled for years with these questions and it all comes down to the simple notion that some realities are harder, more fixed in form, enduring (time-wise) and sequence-cherishing than others; and within a reality, some beings are more 'rational' (meaning intelligible to human beings) than others. it's possible that wuthering heights and it's implied england, as distinct from the reality of england, fits this description, held in the human mind and dormant on bookshelves, and this of course is a dependent reality in a way that say the surface of mars isn't (from our current perspectives, anyway. but there are still unresolved problems in that. plenty of thinking still to be done.

jake, i'll spend a bit of time answering your questions and come back in a separate post.

[Serenity]

Enjoying this thread. Can I tell a story?

Earlier this year at the end of winter and sustained drought, my garden was dry and sterile - there was life there but it was struggling. Many plants had died - prolonged handwatering with tap water is no substitute for rain. I was becoming especially concerned about the big shade trees. It felt pretty hopeless and I felt that I needed help to try and keep things going until the next rain - who knew when that was going to happen? The garden didn't seem to have many helpers - the soil was so dry I saw few worms, we didn't have so many birds as in previous years. We just had multitudes of slaters and millipedes. I couldn't feel much life energy in the garden at all - as if everything had deserted it.

So...I went out on several mornings and asked for help from earth spirits, devas, garden spirits and elementals and Pan. It gave me an instant lift - I felt new energy coming into the garden, which energised me. From being a chore, gardening once again became a pleasure. I felt supported in my efforts to keep the garden alive, I was able to stop worrying and had more confidence that the garden would get through. I spent time giving reiki to struggling plants - all of which have survived and are flourishing, I composted and mulched, and talked to the plants and their helpers. (I'm with Prince Charles in this).

We have since had a lot of rain and my garden is green and lush once again.

I could choose to explain this rationally- I reframed my thinking and was thus able to feel better about gardening and so my gardening was more focused and productive. Or I could simply choose to believe that there are some energies out there that will help if asked. I've spent my life working in analytical fact-based environments that ultimately left me feeling very drained and deadened. I'm happy these days to believe in fairies.

[wyeuro]

jake asks

So do you think the old superstitions simply arose out of encounters with "unseelie" sorts or a bad apple or two? Or are they the result of the Church identifying fairies and pagan gods with demons? Something else entirely?

the fairies of the oral traditions, folklore and myth are different from the rest.

as peter says:

In Welsh legends the Fair folk, the Tylwyth Teg, are of human form and size. Frequently they form unions with a human. A classic example is the tale of the Lady of Llyn y fan fach. She comes out of the lake with her dowry and marries a young farmer. The marriage contract is ended when she receives "Tair ergyd di-achos" Three blows without cause The interesting part is that there were three sons from this union and there were in fact three brothers who were famous healers living in that area and were the children of that union.

and hawthorn:

I have always had an image of fey folk being as the Irish Tuatha De Danaan or Welsh Children of Don are portrayed. They are arrogant, malevolent, magical and often beautiful beings.

fairy faith adepts of the lands where they occur tend to regard these as true historically real human races who have now disappeared. you can include here leprechauns and brownies, most pixies and the hairy fairies of ireland and elsewhere. the leprechaun for example was the last of his clan trying to protect the people's treasury (cnoic of gold) from looters, and it was considered funny to go after him and all the funnier for his being a very small man who mended his own boots instead of keeping slaves. they are widely regarded as having been 'ethereal', but i think their histories were maintained with difficulty and confusion about them began early, within a few generations. real memories would include bad as well as good impressions of them, with incidents to illustrate them.

if i then take the word of the adepts of the fairy faith that their ghosts, under an effect like gravity, change their shape slightly and become compressed downwards, short, broad and differently proportioned. some are under distortive patterns of force that emphasise ear-length and give them the classic pointed pixy-ears. this is then what i see, as guided to view them by guides with the interests of both races at heart. in my own experience my guides tell me that the very ancient hairy races are our distant ancestors and have been evolving with us and take a deep and manipulative role in our evolution, sometimes engaging our race in power struggles and sometimes disarming us with their gentle affection for us. my anamchara, st patrick (the ancient one, not the roman replacement) is one of those. he's only about three feet something tall, and says he was no taller. so they're not all compressed. i'm adore them. they cast their circle round our farm and keep us close. they love music, celtic jigs and dances bring them from everywhere. they'd come if we piped on the moon, so long as there could be dancing. this is the classic work on the topic, and i believe it shows how the two traditions, that of mythologising history and that of second sight have intertwined, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse, leaving some gentle souls slandered because once they were at war with rome. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http ... yfaith.pdf

the norse elves are also afterlife situations for many people who choose that way. they don't 'take' you as the irish fairies sometimes do, usually out of pity if your life on earth is joyless.

to answer cursuswalkers cute question :

A simple question: How do you know they aren't aliens?

another major category includes extraterrestrials - although 'alien' can mean anything from 'recently arrived from another country' to 'extradimensional', and all fairies are by folk definition that. the cosmic elf is both extradimensional and extraterrestrial. they enter our planet to help to ensure its evolution is in harmony with the rest of the galaxy. the moon also establishes colonies of moon beings here, and they are well-loved as diminutive winged and feelered beings who grant wishes and dance by moonlight. humanoids from venus, mars and all the other planets and large moons have their colonies on earth and many are well known to us through kids literature and folklore.

our sensoria are so limiting that we are like caterpillars, with our eyes beside our jaws, unable to see or imagine anything but the leaf we're eating. once you've talked to a few fairies, it's not possible to continue to view the limits of our vision as the limits of reality. that's like believing that the world ends at the horizon, once you've grasped that there is a real world beyond, and when you've grasped that, there are other worlds in the sky, and anyway, other dimensions beyond the time-space continuum as we know it.

and as well as that there are the sustained mental projections of plants and the elementals. gaia has no trouble custom building an array of fairies for any situation ephemeral of permanent. these include the nature spirits, plant spirits, fauns, and various others, such as serenity is talking about, and they do make that kind of difference, you describe there, serenity.

here are some pictures to illustrate:

he teases me a bit.

sproggins.jpg (43.17 KiB) Viewed 514 times

norse elves. there are several types called elves

elves - Copy.jpg (24.42 KiB) Viewed 514 times

this is the sort that often helps scientists and technologists towards cutting edge answers to cosmic questions

elfcosmic Large Web view - Copy.jpg (56.04 KiB) Viewed 514 times

you can see more of my fairy pictures here: http://www.esnips.com/web/picturesoffairies

wyverne /|\

[Huathe]

Wyeuro,

You mentioned the possibility of fey being extinct human races. I find that a real possibility. If you have ever read the Irish " Book of Invasions " it tells of the invasion of Ireland, in stages by the races of the Fir Bolg, Formorians, Tuatha De Danaan and then the Milasians ( Gaels ). The first three of these were very powerful, if not supernatural beings, the most noteworthy being the De Danaans. The last were the Sons of Mil. They are the modern ancestors of the gaels according to the legends. What if it is true that they are some bases in fact to this story? That the various peoples refer to long lost races in Ireland before the coming of the Celts? It could have been a race like this that built Newgrange. Yeah, legends could have built up around them making them appear supernatural or more gloryfied than they actually were. Much like King Arthur, who is believed to have been a simple but noble chieftain who's tales became taller over that passing of centuries until we have the legends of today. Exaggerated, but with a core of truth.

And what if the ghosts of those long-dead folk are the faeries we see today?

And, to add. I have read the Book of Invasions and did a recent lesson on it in my NOD Bardic Course. It is a quite interesting read. Another interesting mythological read is the Welsh Mabinogion, which I read a translation of, about 7 years ago. Both really make you think.

[Serenity]

Check this out

http://www.gearfuse.com/nasa-and-the-en ... rial-life/

Science catching up?

[Heddwen]

jake asks

So do you think the old superstitions simply arose out of encounters with "unseelie" sorts or a bad apple or two? Or are they the result of the Church identifying fairies and pagan gods with demons? Something else entirely?

the fairies of the oral traditions, folklore and myth are different from the rest.

as peter says:

In Welsh legends the Fair folk, the Tylwyth Teg, are of human form and size. Frequently they form unions with a human. A classic example is the tale of the Lady of Llyn y fan fach. She comes out of the lake with her dowry and marries a young farmer. The marriage contract is ended when she receives "Tair ergyd di-achos" Three blows without cause The interesting part is that there were three sons from this union and there were in fact three brothers who were famous healers living in that area and were the children of that union.

and hawthorn:

I have always had an image of fey folk being as the Irish Tuatha De Danaan or Welsh Children of Don are portrayed. They are arrogant, malevolent, magical and often beautiful beings.

fairy faith adepts of the lands where they occur tend to regard these as true historically real human races who have now disappeared. you can include here leprechauns and brownies, most pixies and the hairy fairies of ireland and elsewhere. the leprechaun for example was the last of his clan trying to protect the people's treasury (cnoic of gold) from looters, and it was considered funny to go after him and all the funnier for his being a very small man who mended his own boots instead of keeping slaves. they are widely regarded as having been 'ethereal', but i think their histories were maintained with difficulty and confusion about them began early, within a few generations. real memories would include bad as well as good impressions of them, with incidents to illustrate them.

if i then take the word of the adepts of the fairy faith that their ghosts, under an effect like gravity, change their shape slightly and become compressed downwards, short, broad and differently proportioned. some are under distortive patterns of force that emphasise ear-length and give them the classic pointed pixy-ears. this is then what i see, as guided to view them by guides with the interests of both races at heart. in my own experience my guides tell me that the very ancient hairy races are our distant ancestors and have been evolving with us and take a deep and manipulative role in our evolution, sometimes engaging our race in power struggles and sometimes disarming us with their gentle affection for us. my anamchara, st patrick (the ancient one, not the roman replacement) is one of those. he's only about three feet something tall, and says he was no taller. so they're not all compressed. i'm adore them. they cast their circle round our farm and keep us close. they love music, celtic jigs and dances bring them from everywhere. they'd come if we piped on the moon, so long as there could be dancing. this is the classic work on the topic, and i believe it shows how the two traditions, that of mythologising history and that of second sight have intertwined, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse, leaving some gentle souls slandered because once they were at war with rome. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http ... yfaith.pdf

the norse elves are also afterlife situations for many people who choose that way. they don't 'take' you as the irish fairies sometimes do, usually out of pity if your life on earth is joyless.

to answer cursuswalkers cute question :

A simple question: How do you know they aren't aliens?

another major category includes extraterrestrials - although 'alien' can mean anything from 'recently arrived from another country' to 'extradimensional', and all fairies are by folk definition that. the cosmic elf is both extradimensional and extraterrestrial. they enter our planet to help to ensure its evolution is in harmony with the rest of the galaxy. the moon also establishes colonies of moon beings here, and they are well-loved as diminutive winged and feelered beings who grant wishes and dance by moonlight. humanoids from venus, mars and all the other planets and large moons have their colonies on earth and many are well known to us through kids literature and folklore.

our sensoria are so limiting that we are like caterpillars, with our eyes beside our jaws, unable to see or imagine anything but the leaf we're eating. once you've talked to a few fairies, it's not possible to continue to view the limits of our vision as the limits of reality. that's like believing that the world ends at the horizon, once you've grasped that there is a real world beyond, and when you've grasped that, there are other worlds in the sky, and anyway, other dimensions beyond the time-space continuum as we know it.

and as well as that there are the sustained mental projections of plants and the elementals. gaia has no trouble custom building an array of fairies for any situation ephemeral of permanent. these include the nature spirits, plant spirits, fauns, and various others, such as serenity is talking about, and they do make that kind of difference, you describe there, serenity.

here are some pictures to illustrate:

sproggins.jpg

elves - Copy.jpg

elfcosmic Large Web view - Copy.jpg

you can see more of my fairy pictures here: http://www.esnips.com/web/picturesoffairies

wyverne /|\

The Faerie folk or Shining Ones are, according to universal myths, our long forgotten ancestors the First Humans who brought the gift of individual consciousness to humankind. They came from the stars bringing with them the knowledge of Maths, astrology, astronomy horticulture and writing. Among their descendants were the ancient Britons, indigenous tribal people who had survived the paleolithic ice age and migrants from overseas. But not just in Britain, all indigenous trbal people. These primordial beings who created the Earth came from out of the Earth itself or came as star beings/Shining Ones to help create a new world. Their descendants are our family ancestors, we are therefore, linked through merging bloodlines to the beginning of life itself.

The descendents of the Lady of Llyn Y Fan Fach are alive today, known as The Healers Of The Myddfai, they still possess ancient healing knowledge in the tradition of the cunning man/wise woman. Faerie knowledge that has been passed down through the generations. Although any faerie encounters should be treated carefully. Thomas the Rhymer and Rhiannon, I rest my case!

Maybe it's more fruitful to look at the existentialist concept of 'what is real?'

[Huathe]

Heddwen,

I think we are thinking along the same lines...

Hawthorn Ent.

[treegod]

Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

Imagination may not exist as a "thing", but as a process it exists.

Fairies exist.

We really are skirting the edges of reality here aren't we?

So what about those invisible stairs from your upstairs window? Do they exist? To the degree that you would use them rather than the front door?

What I'm saying is fairies exist only when there is a mind that can appreciate the abstract, like art. Without a human mind to create or percieve it there is no art. The Mona Lisa is not an image of a woman. It is a composition of various elements and compounds. Outside of the human mind "Mona Lisa" has no existence.

Inside the mind, she is very real. So much so my primary view of her is of an image of a woman and not a composition of various elements and compounds.

Like evolution, imagination cannot be concretely identified. We cannot point a fingure and say that is imagination or evolution. We can only identify the evidence.

[treegod]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation....
Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

I have a large and heavy piece of pottery in my living room. If you hit me over the head with it, I think I would definitely feel it. Would I feel it if you hit me over the head with a fairy?

If I shoot someone with an imaginary gun, will he die? If so, should I be arrested for murder? If not, is it because he imagined that I missed?

How long do you think I would survive eating imaginary food? Would a person survive longer on imaginary food than on no food at all?

I am in an imaginary wheelchair and my imaginary baby just fell into a non-imaginary pool of sharks. Will you jump in to save him?

Well put. No, imagination (or Imagi-Nation) doesn't exists as concretely as that. It is abstract. It is as real as this conversation. In fact if you remove all human perception from this, this conversation wouldn't exist as a conversation, but more as electrical signals and whatever else goes into making this pattern of things we call "computer" and "Internet".

If I call you some bad word that offends you, aren't you feeling hurt by something "imaginary", something that requires the capacity for imagination to interpret?

Words effect us to the extent we put value into them. Fairies effect us to the extent we put value into them.

Well, fairies effect us even if we don't value them (as do words). As long as their iare other people in the world believing in them, and their behaviour is effected by their belief in them, then fairies can effect us.

Well, just look at this conversation, the fairies are having an effect on the way this conversation is forming