Fairys... what are they?

[Heddwen]

Heddwen,

I think we are thinking along the same lines...

Hawthorn Ent.

Yes we are and this is why my concept of druidry harks back to my ancient ancestors, the indigenous people pre Brehonnic Laws, pre Roman invasion and pre any assumed 20 year training period. It's the culture, spirituality and language as preserved in myth, legend, channelling, dreams, visions and journeying that allow us a glimpse of that time.

[Heddwen]

Imagination is a real realm and should be more properly called Imagi-Nation....
Art is real. It exists. There are museums dedicated to it. Fairies exist in the same way that art exists, like music, poetry, painting, pottery etc.

I have a large and heavy piece of pottery in my living room. If you hit me over the head with it, I think I would definitely feel it. Would I feel it if you hit me over the head with a fairy?

If I shoot someone with an imaginary gun, will he die? If so, should I be arrested for murder? If not, is it because he imagined that I missed?

How long do you think I would survive eating imaginary food? Would a person survive longer on imaginary food than on no food at all?

I am in an imaginary wheelchair and my imaginary baby just fell into a non-imaginary pool of sharks. Will you jump in to save him?

Well put. No, imagination (or Imagi-Nation) doesn't exists as concretely as that. It is abstract. It is as real as this conversation. In fact if you remove all human perception from this, this conversation wouldn't exist as a conversation, but more as electrical signals and whatever else goes into making this pattern of things we call "computer" and "Internet".

If I call you some bad word that offends you, aren't you feeling hurt by something "imaginary", something that requires the capacity for imagination to interpret?

Words effect us to the extent we put value into them. Fairies effect us to the extent we put value into them.

Well, fairies effect us even if we don't value them (as do words). As long as their iare other people in the world believing in them, and their behaviour is effected by their belief in them, then fairies can effect us.

Well, just look at this conversation, the fairies are having an effect on the way this conversation is forming

My last post disappeared, perhaps it was swiped by the fairies!

I think you could always look at it the other way around. How do we know that things are real rather than imagined? Reality exists in different dimensions, in some places and times the veils are thinner between the worlds. We cannot deny the existence of the Honey Monster just because we haven't seen him (yet) and others have. As Wy pointed out earlier it takes work, there is a mindset and an openness that is inherent in some folks which others are yet to develop. Otherworldly experiences are the cornerstone of druidry especially through our Ovatic leanings and teachings. There are things that cannot be proved or explained just experienced.

[Corwen]

If you encounter a nature spirit of fairy you have a definite experience, yet this experience is open to many different interpretations the least likely of which IMHO is that fairies are real temporal and physical entities in the way you and I are. However there are other types of reality which may be as 'real' on subtle psychological levels, and we cannot doubt the imaginative minds endless capacity to present otherwise inaccessible or incomprehensible information to us in dreamlike ways. In this way the imagination can be seen as another sort of sense organ capable of perceiving mental constructs, psychological and natural forces, gestalt entities and personal relationships in metapohorical form.

Being dogmatic about how we explain these experiences is probably not helpful, it may lead hardline atheists to seem to deny others experiences, whilst hardline fairy believers start to sound crazy to people who haven't had such experiences.

[wyeuro]

wow this is moving along fast. i'll answer hawthorn ent's question first

Wyeuro,

You mentioned the possibility of fey being extinct human races. I find that a real possibility. If you have ever read the Irish " Book of Invasions " it tells of the invasion of Ireland, in stages by the races of the Fir Bolg, Formorians, Tuatha De Danaan and then the Milasians ( Gaels ). The first three of these were very powerful, if not supernatural beings, the most noteworthy being the De Danaans. The last were the Sons of Mil. They are the modern ancestors of the gaels according to the legends. What if it is true that they are some bases in fact to this story? That the various peoples refer to long lost races in Ireland before the coming of the Celts? It could have been a race like this that built Newgrange. Yeah, legends could have built up around them making them appear supernatural or more gloryfied than they actually were. Much like King Arthur, who is believed to have been a simple but noble chieftain who's tales became taller over that passing of centuries until we have the legends of today. Exaggerated, but with a core of truth.

And what if the ghosts of those long-dead folk are the faeries we see today?

And, to add. I have read the Book of Invasions and did a recent lesson on it in my NOD Bardic Course. It is a quite interesting read. Another interesting mythological read is the Welsh Mabinogion, which I read a translation of, about 7 years ago. Both really make you think.

well, i believe that there is this three-step process involving two traditions: the history gradually degrading into myth as awed youngsters learned it without fully understanding traditional poems and tales because the language was becoming archaic; and the accounts of genuine seers.

the degraded histories describe ordinary historically real humans and their political and military exploits, marriages and aspects of their culture, but schoolchildren's and scholar's errors turn them into magical monstrous and magnificent supernatural beings who are not and never were real.

the seers see accurately the peoples of other dimensions no less real than our own, and describe truly what they've seen to others.

the two traditions become confused in the popular lore, and attributes of the mythic beings are attributed to the fairie peoples and vice versa.

but the reason this happens is that there are real connections between the two which we understand subconsciously (in a freudian sense) and which we need to bring to consciousness. gaia needs us to do this, and that's why in each generation people are born who can see beings of other dimensions. our material bodies keep us tunes to our material continuum, while that of beings of other dimensions are tuned to the equally complex reality they inhabit. the extradimensional earthly fairies aren't peripheral to us, but inhabit parallel universes as rich and real as our own. there are many parallel realities in contact with our own. our souls are cosmic. we may be born in reality A, and commune with beings born in reality B, C and D, consciously or subconsciously, and we may then be reborn or relocated upon the death of our body in reality B, C, or D. or two or more simultaneously. we're all of us only lots and lots of data and the astral body is just as true to its data as the material one is to its data, coded in its genes and expressed as a dynamic force form. just a matter of how the soul orients itself. no one dimension is the real one while the others are less real.

people who really see them and talk with them simple do not believe that they are fantasising, hallucinating or delusional - (although remember, most people brought up in our skeptical culture are easily convinced that they are nuts if they 'see' little people ('away with the pixies' is local slang for 'gone gaga' or 'nuts'), so most seers submit to being 'treated' for their symptoms, all too often with potentially lethal drugs that suppress all psychic activity to the extent that they shuffle and slur their speech. people who don't see extra-dimensionals are free to theorise about what's going on when a seer sees, even theorise that they must be lying, but those theories are pure guesswork. in the end, your only eye-witnesses are the seers themselves who (catch 22) tend to agree that there are many races of very real fairies. believing that our materiality is more solid, real or important to gaia is like believing that we ourselves are the centre of the universe. our neighbours disagree.

[Heddwen]

It depends whether 100% hardline atheists are open to the Otherworld and Ovatic part of the OBOD course, there are many grey areas, so I'm told. Atheists can believe in some things and not in others, but that's not so odd I think we all do this to a certain extent. We are selective in the nature of being human.
I'm left wondering whether the skills of the Awenydd can be taught. Would everyone be able to achieve this? I feel that some are more adept at healing/seeing naturally.

[treegod]

My last post disappeared, perhaps it was swiped by the fairies!

Da.... I mean, erm, bless them...

I think you could always look at it the other way around. How do we know that things are real rather than imagined?

As one mentioned on this forum before (DJ Droood I think) I'm as fond of an illusory slap as I am a real one.

If you encounter a nature spirit of fairy you have a definite experience, yet this experience is open to many different interpretations the least likely of which IMHO is that fairies are real temporal and physical entities in the way you and I are. However there are other types of reality which may be as 'real' on subtle psychological levels, and we cannot doubt the imaginative minds endless capacity to present otherwise inaccessible or incomprehensible information to us in dreamlike ways. In this way the imagination can be seen as another sort of sense organ capable of perceiving mental constructs, psychological and natural forces, gestalt entities and personal relationships in metapohorical form.

Being dogmatic about how we explain these experiences is probably not helpful, it may lead hardline atheists to seem to deny others experiences, whilst hardline fairy believers start to sound crazy to people who haven't had such experiences.

Conventional psychiatry treats any "delusions" as something to directly oppose. That is, their treatments work in a way against. Which instead of letting them recover can help them repress their problem instead of resolving it. But sometimes these things need to be worked through in stead of against. If it needs to worked through at all of course.

The point being, their's more to the human mind than simple "right" and "wrong", it's a complex thing requiring some sensitivity to get to know.

[Heddwen]

Ok, how would you know the difference from a 'real' slap to an 'illusion'? Sometimes it's difficult to remain grounded and objective. Wishful thinking and suggestibility are a couple of the factors that may have an effect. I think attempting to define the experience is not necessary, this was my point all along. I think that there is a danger in labelling the experiences of others, we cannot presume to know this.Delusion is a feature of acute psychotic illness, of course this may produce the illusion of the Fey, but I'd certainly recommend seeking medical advice for treatment.
At the end of the day, one mans imagination is another mans reality. (or vice versa)

[treegod]

Ok, how would you know the difference from a 'real' slap to an 'illusion'?

Well that's the point. I wouldn't! They both hurt as much as each other.

Delusion is a feature of acute psychotic illness, of course this may produce the illusion of the Fey, but I'd certainly recommend seeking medical advice for treatment.

I might go for treatment too, but I'd be concerned about the type of treatment. A lot of it is filling you with pills, suppressing the worst of the effects with pills which isn't the same as working through the problem.

[wyeuro]

the term 'delusion' unpacks, as the post-modernists used to say.

many cultures - and some anthropologists say all cultures - have a tradition or two or three of belief in fairies and other extradimensionals which they believe are viewed by highly specialised adepts using sensoria not activated in most individuals. in some cultures these are perhaps unrealistically revered as sooth-sayers, and sure there's a danger of corruption and unethical abuse of trust.

but since the conquest with its commands to 'kill all witches', and 'let not a wizard to live', which are still being given from pulpits worldwide to infants and adults alike at various depths of hypnosis, you have people who don't see fairies, only angels and devils, and believe fairies to be of the devil; and later, in 19th/ 20th century, they see only germs and criminals as real, they've been set up in judgment over the seers, and sometimes they still set themselves up to decide in their minds whether i'm 'sane' or 'psychotic', or a liar, i.e., culpable or curable, if i say i saw a fairy and it spoke audible words to me and i felt it when it kicked me and pinched me and bit me till i'd admit that i saw it.

this judgment goes inevitably way beyond the evidence, which they have not viewed, in declaring it hallucinatory and the 'seer' delusional. in other words,

it is unscientific to claim to know the cause of an event you have never experienced.

if you have insufficient data you should be aware of that and suspend judgment.

regarding the question of 'delusionality', the language of psychiatry is horrendously loaded, - and imo reprehensibly so this far into the postmodern period - as the anti-psychiatrists of the 60s famously protested, although they didn't explore that.

'delusional', which means only 'mistaken', becomes in psychiatric terms 'a symptom of psychosis', which means in Anc Greek: 'pertaining to, or characterised by the features of, or possessing, a soul', for which there is a horrendously terrifying 'cure' which damages the receptors so that they can no longer function, reducing the victims to shuffling zombies who are considered to be cured because they no longer 'hallucinate' or care enough to protest against the treatment. the following quote is old, but the drugs are still in use despite protests of patients and psychiatrists. the treatment and the approach to treatment persist. recent work can them to look and act more normal, but the drugs still work by disabling natural functions in the brain that are judged without evidence to be 'bad'.

http://www.sntp.net/drugs/thorazine.htm this is not a horror fiction. it is hard reality.

a chinese proverb

he who knows and knows he knows
he is a wise man seek him

he who knows and knows not he knows
he is asleep, wake him

he who knows now and knows he knows not
he is a child, teach him

he who knows not and knows not he knows not
he is a fool, shun him.

though maybe that's a rather peremptory reaction to a fellow human in a loop.

wyverne /|\

[Heddwen]

Like the proverb, Wy
Yeah, the clinical antipsychotic medications like chlorpromazine and haloperidol are pretty barbaric and brutal. Thankfully things are moving on (albeit slowly) and these drugs are moving out of vogue in favour of new advances. Of course if left without treatment there is a risk of further illness and damage. I think we digress, clinical delusion as a feature of psychosis is exactly that, one feature as a part of an umberella of symptoms that would be accounted for before any diagnosis or treatment this would include the full care package.
But we are discussing the existence and reality of faeries. It doesn't follow that seers are delusional in either sense of the word, it's more about the existence of these realms and (I think) the importance of being open minded an cultivating a positive approach to otherworldly happenings.

[cursuswalker]

I put a bloody long post on here earlier that has been swiped as well!

[wyeuro]

cursuswalker that is a bloody horrible avatar you've installed there.
however, having watched it for five minutes, i see now that you are absolutely right about everything!!!!!!!

[Huathe]

Actually I found Cursuswalker's avatar pretty amusing too!

[cursuswalker]

And here it is again

I'm still pee'd off about that post. Might try to recreate it later...

[Huathe]

I wonder what happened to it? It might have been deleted by a moderator. Maybe?

[wyeuro]

I wonder what happened to it? It might have been deleted by a moderator. Maybe?

grumpy fairies dun it, i bet.

[Huathe]

Maybe it was gremlins?

[wyeuro]

gremlins? noooow, don't let's get superstitious.

[cursuswalker]

I wonder what happened to it? It might have been deleted by a moderator. Maybe?

I really hope not. That would be a Bad Thing (tm)

[Heddwen]

I wonder what happened to it? It might have been deleted by a moderator. Maybe?

I really hope not. That would be a Bad Thing (tm)

It's happened a couple of times when I have tried to post a longer post. Ive been logged out too I think the only way around it is to copy and paste from Word, which I keep forgetting to do. Very frustrating!