To Circle or not Circle? To Quarters or not Quarters?

[ishtar_snowyowl]

Good morning guys!

Lately, I've been reading more and more into Isaac Bonewit's material. I translated his "Atlantis bookshop" conference (recorded by Philip for the OBOD podcasts), and I just finished his book "Neopagan rites". I am part of a group that does public rituals, and I also teach a workshop on the Sacred Circle, so that matter is quite important for me.

Like many, I started with Wicca, and calling the quarters and using the Circle as a sphere that filters all energies pass through it (inwards or outwards), is natural for me. As I progressed in magic, I eventually needed to add a sturdy square wall outside my Circle, and even a triangle when I need extra protection on the Astral Plane. Bonewits seems to have other views on the matter...

From what I understand, in ADF rites the Circle is not traced with a staff, wand, athame, or sword; it is formed by the participants's procession to/on the ritual site. The Quarters are not typically called either; the Center is often used as a Portal and the Gate Keeper(s) acts as the Quarters would.

OBOD has different views on the matter, because the Gwers explain how to trace a Sacred Circle and each ritual has a distinct section during which Peace is sent to the quarters (and Center) and Totem animals are called to protect each direction, even in group rituals. From what I understand, OBOD was strongly influenced by Wicca/Golden Dawn, so no surprise here.

I know there are ADF members here and I hope they'll manifest themselves, but my question is for everyone. Have you experienced rituals (solitary or not) without the tracing of a Circle and/or calling of the Quarters? How was your experience? Are those elements important for you? Why?

Looking forward to reading your comments,

Ishtar

[meicalabawen]

I see all elements of ritual as a means to move my physical, mental and spiritual self into a sacred space. As a Wiccan, circles, elements, quarters, watchtowers etc serve to do that for me. Equally important is conducting ritual out of doors, no matter the weather. I am also a geologist, and for me, being able to practice ritual in close proximity to rock is also important, although I seldom am able to do so. I experience a similar sense of the divine when at sea or during a thunderstorm or hurricane.

I understand the elements of ritual, then, as that which allows me to approach the divine. And as religions are the language of the approach to the divine, all religions incorporate rituals in their particular dialect.

The one exception that I see to this is religious practice that incorporates hatred and oppression. I do not see that as an approach to the divine at all. I see that as pathological. And I think that certain forms of christianity and islam are pathologies.

[Corwen]

There were two very informative threads about this topic but they have been eaten by the awful thread devouring prune monster...

this one remains however, so enjoy it while it lasts...

viewtopic.php?f=135&t=35546&p=379058&hilit=casting+circles#p379058

I don't cast circles any more, I am not comfortable separating bits of the cosmos from each other and calling one bit 'sacred'. A natural circle is formed whenever a fire is lit in the dark or friends gather together.

I am a little happier with quarters, though again arbitrarily dividing the world up into four now seems unnecessary to me and I am more likely to address the things I see and feel around me in a ritual rather than things I can't see.

I think there is a part of the mind which is made very happy by lists of correspondences and things which neatly add up to schemes and systems. There is a place for that but we mustn't mistake our experiences of such a schema for genuine experiences of the world itself, or give such a schema more importance than it deserves.

[Jake]

I'm opposed to the notion of "creating sacred space" as well, and I don't feel the need to cut myself off from anything or to restrict my movements to one area. I find it oppressive. Back during my Wicca-lite days I was constantly forgetting where the circle was and accidentally stepping (or jumping, or stumbling) outside it and feeling anxious and claustrophobic.

So I've only cast a circle once in the past 15+ years and that was early on in the OBOD course work when I decided to try it again just to make sure it was something I still had no interest in doing. This confirmed my feelings about casting circles, but I do find myself walking in circles or spirals a lot. It's a totally different feeling though.

I also call the quarters, and enjoy it, but I don't think of it as calling the quarters in the "hail to the guardians of the watchtowers" sense at all. Because that stuff annoys me to no end. I think of it more like recreating the progression of the yearly seasons and the daily motion of the earth around the sun on a microcosm with elements and animals thrown in for fun and atmosphere.

I think there is a part of the mind which is made very happy by lists of correspondences and things which neatly add up to schemes and systems. There is a place for that but we mustn't mistake our experiences of such a schema for genuine experiences of the world itself, or give such a schema more importance than it deserves.

Wow. This just answered an important question that's been bugging me for weeks and really came to a head this afternoon. Today has been the strangest day for synchronicity.

[Heddwen]

Ishtar, the more that I work in sacred space, the less that I feel the need to call in quarters, cast circles or use props when I'm working alone. My connection is directly with deity. I've been involved with different traditions and learnt much, using the parts that suit me and adapting this to my perception of druidry. OBOD druidry is inclusive so it's the path that resonates with me most. Of course there are situations and times where these things are appropriate, I have no problem with this I see the staff as an extension of myself. If need be I will use one. I maintain that if you have a strong connection with the Source (whatever that means for you, Nature, Deity etc) then there is less need to define a boundary between the 'material' and the 'sacred' and I've worked with large groups that practise this. In my view everything is sacred.

[DJ Droood]

I never saw circle casting as keeping anything out or in...in group ceremonies, it was more of a way to focus the group and delineate the "performance" area. I've always seen ritual as plays, with props and costumes and scripts, that creates in microcosm the wheel of the year, as Jake pointed out, and/or a slice of it. Ritual seems designed to work in the Other World (imagination) and perhaps circle casting is a way to ease ourselves into that world. Also, there was usually a plurality of current or former wiccans in the group rituals I have done, so circle casting seemed an important element for them, and I am ok with that...if thy circle casting harmith none....

[DaRC]

Yep I no longer see the casting a circle as separating the sacred from the profane but like Drood says more the way of settling myself into an otherworld space...
a bit like water going down a plughole or a cat/dog circling before settling down to sleep.

For me it's a tool of the imagination.

[ishtar_snowyowl]

Hi guys!

Your answers are very interesting! Quite frankly, I'm a bit surprised as I read them because I didn't anticipate that delineating sacred space and time was experienced as separating oneself from... whatever else, for so many of you. Huh!

In my debate about whether or not I should cast a Circle and call the Quarters, I'm considering the following arguments:

- Delineating space and time marks a spot. It allows you to enter into the appropriate inner disposition for ritual work, shows respect for the energies you're about to work with, and allows you to use physical/energy markers to focus.

- That being said, the Quarters don't really exist on the Astral plane...

- Even if the Quarters don't exist in the Astral Plane, their mana (energy) does exist there given all the people who sent mana into them. And I can either ignore that mana, or tap into it because it's easily accessible.

- For the same reason, infusing your Circle with a specific energy can greatly aid a ritual. Then your microcosm is primarily vibrating with, say, a healing energy.

- Protection, protection, protection. No matter how hard you try, you can always send unwanted energies when you cast a spell or send a prayer, other people doing the ritual can disrupt the group mind with their thoughts, energies, emotions. And of course, when you walk on other planes, you're exposed to all kinds of energies that you don't always see coming. I've seen Papa Legba provoke paranormal events in my ritual room, and I've seen an ectoplasm manifest itself in my basement, and both times I was darn happy to have a Circle present, a limit beyond which I could allow them to cross, or not.

- Recreating the cosmos in the Circle makes a lot of sense to me. If you stand at the center of the cosmos, then you can reach anywhere. Merging the center of your microcosm with the center of another microcosm (say, the crystal around a sick person's neck), you can make sure that the energies you send actually reach their destination with full power and intent, because you remove space and time from the equation.

- But then, if I view my Circle as the cosmos, doesn't it encompass all things, including the unwanted energies the Circle should supposedly keep outside???

- Vizualizing a Circle is indeed a tool of the imagination that helps one's inner disposition, but once it's cast, it has a "life" of its own and you can feel it. For example, last week my seedgroup partner an I cast the Circle together for our meeting. When it was complete, we "heard" it ring like a tibetan bowl, and the waves ran around it like giggles. That was definitely not something we had voluntarily imagined while casting the Circle. When you pay attention, you can actually feel that it's getting cold and/or the Circle feels weaker, and that's usually because you stopped feeding it, maintaining it. The maintenance depends on your visualisation, but the warning comes from the Circle itself... see what I mean?

Okay, long post... sorry about that! But I'd really like to read your comments about this!

Ishtar



In a way, delineating sacred space and time mark the spot, it makes a statement of sorts. I am standing here, in this place, in this time, and I want to make a ritual. Plain and simple. I think it's a way to show intent, respect, and to put yourself in an appropriate

When I teach circle casting, I try to make people aware that the Circle can be an amazing ritual tool. You can infuse it with an intention, a color, a specific energy that is pertinent to your ritual work.

Now that I understand Bonewit's views a little better, I see how important the "recreating the cosmos" function of circle casting is. Viewing the Circle as the wheel of the year follows the same idea. You, standing at the center of the universe as recreated by your Circle, can reach out and/or have an impact anywhere in the universe. Merging the centers of two microcosms in order to get your spell through allows you to maximise its impact. If you're just standing "in your living room" (i.e. no microcosm recreated), how can you achieve that as powerfully?

Anothing thing that makes me think twice is its "filter" aspect. It filters what goes into your Circle, but also what comes out of it. No matter how much you prepare, you can always send out unwanted energies when you send a spell. No matter how careful you are, your thoughts, energies or emotions can disturb the group mind. Also, given that you deliberately walk on other planes during your ritual work, you are exposed to all kinds of energies from those different planes. Having a sturdy circle and guardians does provide sturdy grounding.

I realized that when I worked with Papa Legba. For a while, I had been feeling a little bit more "naked" during my rituals, as if I felt the energies on the "other side" of my Circle were stronger, and my Circle felt paper-thin. Someone advised me to add a square-shaped wall around my Circle, and I tried it when I worked with Papa Legba. He provoked a couple of paranormal events in my magical room during the ritual, outside my Circle. At that time, I was normally awfully jumpy about those things, but I watched/heard them happen and stayed super zen the whole time. Without the Circle, I'm sure I would have been very nervous, and that nervousness would have been infused in the magic I did that night.

...but I am also aware that the quarters are just human references, and that they don't really exist on the Astral plane. Their energies do, however.

[steampunkdragon]

Do I call the quarters? Not usually. I don't see the need. However, I do tend to cast a circle... but not necessarily to keep other things *out*, but to keep parts of ME *in*. You see, I have a nasty habit of infusing too much of myself into ceremonies and rituals, and having nothing left for me later. Shielding myself in makes it easier for me to "feel" how much is actually leaving the general area, and adjust/limit accordingly.

[Jake]

Hi guys!

Your answers are very interesting! Quite frankly, I'm a bit surprised as I read them because I didn't anticipate that delineating sacred space and time was experienced as separating oneself from...

From "non-sacred" space and time - personally I don't find that kind of dualistic thinking useful on a number of levels. That's just me though. Others' mileage will vary and that's cool.

Protection, protection, protection. No matter how hard you try, you can always send unwanted energies when you cast a spell or send a prayer, other people doing the ritual can disrupt the group mind with their thoughts, energies, emotions. And of course, when you walk on other planes, you're exposed to all kinds of energies that you don't always see coming. I've seen Papa Legba provoke paranormal events in my ritual room, and I've seen an ectoplasm manifest itself in my basement, and both times I was darn happy to have a Circle present, a limit beyond which I could allow them to cross, or not.

I'm not a believer and you'd want to speak to someone more knowledgeable than I, but, from what I understand, invoking Legba or any other Loa from within a protective circle is something that is not done. My understanding is the Loa would see this as an affront. If they come to "ride" their "horse" and find him/her standing stubbornly on the other side of a magic fence they can't cross (or can they?) they might get really ticked off.

Maybe it's a good thing it was Papa Legba and not Ogun you invited to the party!

And I'm really not sure a houngan or mambo would be so certain that your circle sets any limits whatsoever on Papa Legba or tells him where he can and can't go. Again I could be totally wrong, and I don't share the worldview. I'm sure someone else can speak to this more far more knowledgeably.

[ishtar_snowyowl]

steampunkdragon,
what a beautifully inspired answer! Thanks for sharing this! By the way, one very simple exercise that works very well, when you feel all "spilled out" in many directions, is to spread your arms wide and hug yourself, with the intent of bringing all your astral and etheric bodies back inside of you. Aaaall the layers, zoom, back in. Just do it three times, visualizing, and you'll see for yourself...

Jake,
Oh, I wouldn't pretend to know much about Hoodoo or the Loas, because I just know the basics. The person who suggested I add a square wall around my Circle for that ritual is very experienced, in many traditions, including Hoodoo, and she knew I'd be making a ritual with Loas for the first time when she suggested that. The info I've read is that you can choose to be possessed by a Loa if that's what you really want, or you can invoke them and ask them do do something for you. You're right though, I suspect it's culturally very relevant to choose possession, but so far I haven't read that doing otherwise would offend the Loas. It's worth investigating, for knowledge's sake.

And about sacred time, I would just say that, when you want to make someone feel special, you make sure you're available for them physically, mentally, and emotionally... I think the same goes for the energies you work with during a ritual, hence the "sacredness" (I'm giving you my full attention) being differentiated from the "mundane" (I'm still thinking about the screwdriver I bought at the hardware store this afternoon). Bonewits also wrote this, which is an interesting angle:

The declaration of sacred time returns us to when deity(ies) first made the cosmos (however our culture or subculture may conceive it and them). As Mircea Eliade puts it:

"by its very nature, sacred time is reversible in the sense that, properly speaking, it is a primordial mythical time made present. Every religious festival, any liturgical time, represents the re-actualization of a sacred event that took place in a mythical past, "in the beginning"... Man desires to recover the active presence of the Gods; he also desires to live in the world as it came from the Creator's hands, fresh, pure, and strong."

When we declare time to be sacred, we are declaring our intent and ability to return to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when the world was new, the animals could talk, and deities were seen everywhere. We step outside of normal, mundane, or secular time and into eternity

I'm not spontaneously confortable with his mythical view of the "freshly created" universe, but the voluntary manipulation of space and time is definitely part of the ritual act and experience... I'm sure sometimes you have the impression you've spent ages in ritual mode, when in fact it's been 30 minutes... and vice versa.

Okay, time to go to bed! Good night!

Ishtar

[steampunkdragon]

steampunkdragon,
what a beautifully inspired answer! Thanks for sharing this! By the way, one very simple exercise that works very well, when you feel all "spilled out" in many directions, is to spread your arms wide and hug yourself, with the intent of bringing all your astral and etheric bodies back inside of you. Aaaall the layers, zoom, back in. Just do it three times, visualizing, and you'll see for yourself...
>snippage<

Ishtar

Ishtar, I do know how to rejuvenate myself after a rit, but my problem is that I'm not a good judge of what's "enough". Just because I have a hammer doesn't mean everything is nail to be driven in to the head.

[athelia143]

Good morning guys!


I know there are ADF members here and I hope they'll manifest themselves, but my question is for everyone. Have you experienced rituals (solitary or not) without the tracing of a Circle and/or calling of the Quarters? How was your experience? Are those elements important for you? Why?

Looking forward to reading your comments,

Ishtar

Hi Ishtar,

I am a member of ADF and a number of other Druids groups, as well as the founder of my own. None of my rituals involve calling quarters or casting circles. Like many, I got my start in Wicca and never could get comfortable with casting circles and calling quarters. It felt like I was segregating myself unecessarily.

When I did more reading and stopped doing rituals with circles and quarters back in 2001, I felt very liberated. All of a sudden, the energy was flowing so smoothly and I felt more a part of the universe than just segregated away from everything. The energies felt better. I was more connected to the Kindreds and everything just felt better all around. I honour the elements of land, sea and sky as well as the joining of the four classical elements hrough smithcraft by consecrating a blade for use in opening the portal.

As a result, I will never go back to doing rituals where a circle is cast and quarters are called. The classical elements and used in the "traditional Wiccan" sense (for lack of a better term), just don't work for me in ritual and never have.

Because I do enjoy some aspects of OBOD ritual, I have incorporated the calling for peace to the four directions, but that is just to establish peace in the world, not to set boundaries or invoke cardinal watchtowers, etc. I've also incorporated some aspects of ADF rituals, but I have a very distinct style of doing rituals, and am also very flexible. Some of my best rituals have involved very little invoking, actions or tools - just me communing with the Divine in Nature. Sometimes, I'll just stand and welcome the energies of the Kindreds around me and say a prayer for peace to the world. Then I'll just walk while doing my ritual and then close up by making an offering of water and animal-safe seeds, nuts or berries, thanking everyone for joining me and then grounding and centering myself with food and drink. These work best for me, actually.

Normally, the ADf ritual involves consecration of time and place (stating intention, opening prayers, blessing the attendees); grounding and centering (preparing oneself through a grounding meditation, naming the intent and deities tobe honoured); "recreating the osmos" or defining sacred space (honouring the Tree, Well and Fire); asking the Gatekeeper to open the portal (this could be a request to Mannann to open the gate to the Otherworld); invoking Kindreds (Ancestors, helper spirits and Deities) and then beginning the ritual. The end of the ritual involves thanking all of the Kindreds, etc. in reverse order, thanking the gatekeeper and closing the gates, affirming the results of the ritual, regrounding/centering and then declaring the ritual over.

To learn more about ADF's formatting, I recommend looking at the "Explanations of Druid Ritual" Page on their website: http://www.adf.org/rituals/explanations/.

I'm interested in seeing what others have to say

Athelia /|\

[Lily]

I can't be the only one who still finds the circle en vogue?

Not for Protection. I disagree that OBOD druidry was "strongly influenced by wicca"... or rather, that Wicca is in any way the parent of OBOD druidry.
the two guys knew each other, but in my opinion these two denominations have a very different flavour.

As for the Quarters, as I understand it we do not call them for protection.

We delineate sacred space and sacred time to step away from the mundane, to have a temple not made of stone. We invite the beneficial forces of the elements, directions and the four animals into the space to inspire the ceremony.

My understanding. Some may disagree but I will keep doing it, because it works for me.

I admit for my quickie rits I only cast a circle without calling the quarters.

[wolf560]

Have you experienced rituals (solitary or not) without the tracing of a Circle and/or calling of the Quarters?
How was your experience? Are those elements important for you? Why?

I joined the OBOD and the ADF back in 2003, but remained a solitaire for a very long time.
I never considered either method to be "to my liking" but rather took what "felt right".

I called Quarters with their respective Elements for my Wiccan friends who would not participate in Ritual without them.
I called the "Guardians of the Watch Towers" for my Thelemic friends who felt they were necessary.
I traced a Circle around the ritual space for both of the above groups of friends because they told me "it had to be done".

My personal belief is that once you have made the space around Sacred it should remain so if you are always keeping it going.
I follow the ADF beliefs wherein we "think vertically" with respect to the Three Realms and their respective Kindred.

The Four Elements never really did much for me and neither did the Circle which I honestly never felt was necessary.

Consecrating Sacred space is something I take seriously, but I rarely find anything in Mother Nature to be of a perfect circle...
When we found places to hold rituals they typically turned out to have odd shapes and we relished what we found

The Circle always formed as the people all came together and got close so that they could share the celebration and listen to whoever was speaking

If you are wondering about 'Protection' I guess I never truly thought that anyone was out there to try to disrupt our gatherings or cause us any harm.
We were always more interested in making sure that everything remained 'Balanced', 'Coordinated', and 'Focused'...

[Lily]

My personal belief is that once you have made the space around Sacred it should remain so if you are always keeping it going.

Well, I see it necessary to unwind it as well, because that truly brings closure to the ritual ("theatre" as some call it). My opinion. It helps you come back into the mundane mode.

If you are wondering about 'Protection' I guess I never truly thought that anyone was out there to try to disrupt our gatherings or cause us any harm.
We were always more interested in making sure that everything remained 'Balanced', 'Coordinated', and 'Focused'...

Precisely the point I was making elsewhere on this board. Other brands of paganism or ritual magic call entities, energies, what have you, in the worst case to command them. no wonder they don't trust that everything they call is benevolent. In druidry I have yet to come across a ritual where we don't initially ask for blessing, guidance, inspiration and protection by the guiding forces (god&goddess by default unless you don't like it) and where protection from malignant forces would be required...

[wolf560]

... once you have made the space around Sacred it should remain so...

Well, I see it necessary to unwind it as well, because that truly brings closure to the ritual...

I agree... (the lack of a need for 'Protection' as well somewhat with the requirement to have some 'closure' at the end of the Ritual).

My rituals are daily and usually at daybreak and sundown... simple things actually, but they start and end each of my 'days'..
I do have 'grander ceremonies' that I do on each of the quarter and cross-quarter days throughout the year and while I do "cast circle' it is usually for the participants.
I ask each of the participants not to "Call the Deities" because it just feels wrong to me to 'summon them' as if they were pets or a 'Pantheon on a leash'.
My feeling is that my Deities are already with me or not and that regardless of what I wanted they will enter my sacred space at their leisure with or without my permission.

I toast them as if they are there and I feel that they are there from the moment I wake until the moment I return to the Dreamtime.
My feeling of completion comes from reaching the end where I pour a libation onto the ground and snuff out my candles or torches.

I however try to retain my connection to the Land around me and have never really tried to drop it for a very long time

[Daire]

I can't be the only one who still finds the circle en vogue?

Maybe. I do think that setting the area apart is necessary to a degree. I don't think that protection is necessary and lean toward the idea that the area is consecrated by use rather than having to be specifically blessed in some way. Although, this may be different if one is using what is normally "mundane" space for ritual (living room for instance). Celtic ritual sites give a precedent for having some kind of division between the ritual area and rest of the world. These sites were often, if not always, surrounded by a ditch, line of posts, woven wall, etc. Although, if the fog of archaeology were lifted we could well find that these were just to keep the critters from getting underfoot during ceremony.

Here's an article I like on the topic of liminality:
http://www.comhaltacht-draiocht.org/art ... o-the-edge

Dáire

[Dendrias]

In Latin, there is a difference between "sacer" and "sanctus".
While "sacer" means something like "belonging to the realm of the gods, not of the humans anymore", and thus means "holy" as well as "cursed", (think of it like the sanctity of a grove)
"sanctus" is what humans dedicate to the gods - it is made "sanctus" by humans (think of it like the space within a circle - if You follow that idea of the circle).

I think part of this might reflects Dáire's idea of "consecrated by use".

[Zylah]

I can't be the only one who still finds the circle en vogue?

Not for Protection. I disagree that OBOD druidry was "strongly influenced by wicca"... or rather, that Wicca is in any way the parent of OBOD druidry.
the two guys knew each other, but in my opinion these two denominations have a very different flavour.

As for the Quarters, as I understand it we do not call them for protection.

We delineate sacred space and sacred time to step away from the mundane, to have a temple not made of stone. We invite the beneficial forces of the elements, directions and the four animals into the space to inspire the ceremony.

My understanding. Some may disagree but I will keep doing it, because it works for me.

I admit for my quickie rits I only cast a circle without calling the quarters.

You and I seem to be on the same page about protection, I think, Lily. Ditto everything you just said there - except I'm opposite in that for some reason when I'm in haste I call the quarters but don't cast a circle. I like the quarters, I enjoy the acknowledgement of the elements and totem animals largely because it puts me in a good frame of mind not only for whatever it is I'm specifically doing, but for everything in general.

That may sound silly; I guess for me the symbolism of the elements and associated animals gives me a panoramic view and shifts my perspective. This is particularly helpful if I'm suffering any kind of anxiety, on several levels. First, the repetitious, familiar nature of ritual has a calming effect in itself. Second, the ideas that surround giving peace to the quarters focus the mind on things that are tangible and relatively unchanging. Third, the acknowledgement of the elements and the directions underlines a sense of place in naming the things that surround and sustain life: In acknowledging Earth, I remember roots, tapping into the source of strength and stability; Water linked with wisdom legitimizes and lends dignity to emotion and intuition, while providing a gentle reminder of the need for balance; Air linked with the light of dawn makes me thankful for the powers of intellect and insight; and Fire linked to the hunted, cautious stag and the clear eye of the sun shows me both the power and the limitations of passion. All of this, clearly, applicable to myself as well as others.

For me, at least, that is what calling the circle and giving peace to the directions is mainly about.