The Atheist Druid

[Arth Frown]

To the second question, honor is many things to many people: to me, it's essentially how one acts in the world. (Living up to a certain set of standards, etc.) This is a concept that doesn't require any divine element, and can be found in secular philosophies. An atheist of any persuasion with a sense of honor has such because of its direct effect and relation to the people in his life. No deity required.

Of course no deity needed. I do not honour the Gods,people, spirits, ancestors or whatever I just hope my actions are honourable.
Honour in paganism is a grey area, I think because honour is not part of western culture anymore. I've often heard in public ritual that the gods or spirits are honoured, but it's not demonstrated how they honour them.
I've come to the conclusion that I can not honour the other party, but it is up to them if i have honoured them.
Wiki has a phrase from Margaret Visser "a person is what he or she is in the eyes of other people."

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

[cursuswalker]

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Really? You can't love an idea? You can't love Winnie the Pooh? Mickey Mouse?

If you CAN love those ideas then you can sure as hell love the fictional characters your ancestors believed to be real.

[Arth Frown]

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Really? You can't love an idea? You can't love Winnie the Pooh? Mickey Mouse

So you love fictional characters. I wouldn't go as far as loving Winnie the Pooh, Mickey Mouse or Shrek etc.

If you CAN love those ideas then you can sure as hell love the fictional characters your ancestors believed to be real.

If you mean the gods being fictional characters then that would be a atheist point of view.

[Nicholaas]

If you mean the gods being fictional characters then that would be a atheist point of view.

Well, yeah. We can love the stories, the lore, the ideals many of the deities are attributed as having, all without actually believing they exist. This makes far more sense to me than the alternative.

[DJ Droood]

Consider the case of the training god, Santa Clause (or your quaint regional variation), who I can say I loved, trusted and believed in with all my heart. My older sister, a nasty young proto-athiest, told me over several xmases that Santa wasn't real, but the television specials and songs, and most importantly, my imagination and need to believe, told me she was wrong. Eventually...I don't remember exactly when...I had pieced together enough evidence...finding gifts from Santa in the cold storage room on the 23rd...an awakening pubescent rationality....to gradually disbelieve in Santa. Later, I would be able to conceptualize Santa as a metaphore for "the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love".....I loved the idea and rituals of Santa enough to play the same game with my kids.

So maybe all this atheism business is just post-tramatic reaction to Santa....

[Huathe]

Heck, He's the " Holly King! "

[treegod]

Consider the case of the training god, Santa Clause (or your quaint regional variation), who I can say I loved, trusted and believed in with all my heart. My older sister, a nasty young proto-athiest, told me over several xmases that Santa wasn't real, but the television specials and songs, and most importantly, my imagination and need to believe, told me she was wrong. Eventually...I don't remember exactly when...I had pieced together enough evidence...finding gifts from Santa in the cold storage room on the 23rd...an awakening pubescent rationality....to gradually disbelieve in Santa. Later, I would be able to conceptualize Santa as a metaphore for "the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love".....I loved the idea and rituals of Santa enough to play the same game with my kids.

So maybe all this atheism business is just post-tramatic reaction to Santa....

Love the way you describe Santa as ""the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love"". I totally agree

[Arth Frown]

If atheist druids love the gods of their ancestors, how do you know which gods your ancestors followed?

What if those gods had blood sacrifices made to them would that change things?

[Arth Frown]

Consider the case of the training god, Santa Clause (or your quaint regional variation), who I can say I loved, trusted and believed in with all my heart. My older sister, a nasty young proto-athiest, told me over several xmases that Santa wasn't real, but the television specials and songs, and most importantly, my imagination and need to believe, told me she was wrong. Eventually...I don't remember exactly when...I had pieced together enough evidence...finding gifts from Santa in the cold storage room on the 23rd...an awakening pubescent rationality....to gradually disbelieve in Santa. Later, I would be able to conceptualize Santa as a metaphore for "the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love".....I loved the idea and rituals of Santa enough to play the same game with my kids.

So maybe all this atheism business is just post-tramatic reaction to Santa....

Love the way you describe Santa as ""the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love"". I totally agree

Love it too. But how is that different from say the spirit of the sun?

[Heddwen]

Consider the case of the training god, Santa Clause (or your quaint regional variation), who I can say I loved, trusted and believed in with all my heart. My older sister, a nasty young proto-athiest, told me over several xmases that Santa wasn't real, but the television specials and songs, and most importantly, my imagination and need to believe, told me she was wrong. Eventually...I don't remember exactly when...I had pieced together enough evidence...finding gifts from Santa in the cold storage room on the 23rd...an awakening pubescent rationality....to gradually disbelieve in Santa. Later, I would be able to conceptualize Santa as a metaphore for "the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love".....I loved the idea and rituals of Santa enough to play the same game with my kids.

So maybe all this atheism business is just post-tramatic reaction to Santa....

Love the way you describe Santa as ""the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love"". I totally agree

Love it too. But how is that different from say the spirit of the sun?

Yeah, I'd never thought of it like that before and it's also a lovely time to reinforce the spirit of the family, although I appreciate that it's difficult for some people.

What do you mean there's no Santa? I've seen him several times

[DJ Droood]

What do you mean there's no Santa? I've seen him several times

Did he look like my dad in the 1970's, with funky sideburns and plaid shirt??

[Heddwen]

Lol I was a child of the 70's too! Only he appeared here as a slightly tipsy version after drinking the snifter that we left out for him.

[Arth Frown]

I sold one of my chairs to Santa/ Father Christmas for his grotto a couple of weeks ago.

[Heddwen]

If atheist druids love the gods of their ancestors, how do you know which gods your ancestors followed?

What if those gods had blood sacrifices made to them would that change things?

Depends if you mean generic ancestors, specific ancestors or both. Although I don't think that this would make any big difference.

Also, bear in mind the amount of human bloodshed that has occurred in the name of religion

[Arth Frown]

If atheist druids love the gods of their ancestors, how do you know which gods your ancestors followed?

What if those gods had blood sacrifices made to them would that change things?

Depends if you mean generic ancestors, specific ancestors or both. Although I don't think that this would make any big difference.

I meant direct ancestors, but indirect will do.

Also, bear in mind the amount of human bloodshed that has occurred in the name of religion

Which is the point I'm trying to make. If (big if) your direct ancestors followed gods Esus,Taranis and Teutates,, which according to Ceasar had men burned in a wicker cage in their name. With Atheists strong ethics about gods, why would you love those gods? I suspect most gods had a blood sacrifice made in their name, it makes it a 'minefield for Atheist Druids.

[cursuswalker]

Wiki has a phrase from Margaret Visser "a person is what he or she is in the eyes of other people."

Well that's rubbish for a start, as it makes no alowance for personal autonomy and respect for the individual and their personal choices.

By that logic, a black man living in a town full of bigots is, in fact, nothing more than a worthless n****r. A disgusting view to take.

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Again your inflexibility of thinking betrays you.

You can love an idea, even more so if it meant so much to your ancestors. I guess you either see that or you don't. I do and you don't <shrug>

[cursuswalker]

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Really? You can't love an idea? You can't love Winnie the Pooh? Mickey Mouse

So you love fictional characters. I wouldn't go as far as loving Winnie the Pooh, Mickey Mouse or Shrek etc.

Really? That's a shame. I have learned valuable lessons from such fictional archetypes, which are among the most potent ideas of the human mind. Once you realise that they are ALL products of human imagination, it actually increases your respect, and fear of, the human imagination, in my experience.

If you CAN love those ideas then you can sure as hell love the fictional characters your ancestors believed to be real.

If you mean the gods being fictional characters then that would be a atheist point of view.

Correct. Gods are fictional characters, but my ancestors beleived them to be real. Hence they are worthy of a little more regard than others for that very reason.

[cursuswalker]

If atheist druids love the gods of their ancestors, how do you know which gods your ancestors followed?

That is like saying "How can you revere your ancestors if you don't know what all theuir names were?"

What if those gods had blood sacrifices made to them would that change things?

Not really. They believed in them in the circumstances in which they lived. I live in the times I live in. If I see someone using a god to justify torture and killing NOW then that is a different matter. But the past is the past and all the events that happened in it went towards making me/us what we are.

I still think it is valid to honour those ideas that they held in deepest reverence, without having to also believe in them. That way the human mind cannot ever progress.

[cursuswalker]

Which is the point I'm trying to make. If (big if) your direct ancestors followed gods Esus,Taranis and Teutates,, which according to Ceasar had men burned in a wicker cage in their name. With Atheists strong ethics about gods, why would you love those gods? I suspect most gods had a blood sacrifice made in their name, it makes it a 'minefield for Atheist Druids.

No that is an assumption on your part. I would argue that the real minefield is for the literal polytheist, for whom those gods really exist and really required such sacrifices.

Were the ancestors saints? No. But then again, that is not the point of revering the ancestors is it?

We ALL have both rapists and victims of rape among our ancestors. Murderers and victims of murder. But overall they probably, as a collective, balanced out to a fairly neutral average.

And like it or not the rapists contributed just as much to what we are as their victims did. A sobering thought that should give rise to considerabe humility.

[Arth Frown]

Wiki has a phrase from Margaret Visser "a person is what he or she is in the eyes of other people."

Well that's rubbish for a start, as it makes no alowance for personal autonomy and respect for the individual and their personal choices.

By that logic, a black man living in a town full of bigots is, in fact, nothing more than a worthless n****r. A disgusting view to take.

Phrases seldom give allowances. The context of the phrase is about honour not racists.

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Again your inflexibility of thinking betrays you.

You can love an idea, even more so if it meant so much to your ancestors. I guess you either see that or you don't. I do and you don't <shrug>[/quote]

The point is, do you love the idea of gods wanting blood sacrifices. Which you have already answered.