The Atheist Druid

[Arth Frown]

No that is an assumption on your part. I would argue that the real minefield is for the literal polytheist, for whom those gods really exist and really required such sacrifices.

Which is a assumption on your part.

[cursuswalker]

Wiki has a phrase from Margaret Visser "a person is what he or she is in the eyes of other people."

Well that's rubbish for a start, as it makes no alowance for personal autonomy and respect for the individual and their personal choices.

By that logic, a black man living in a town full of bigots is, in fact, nothing more than a worthless n****r. A disgusting view to take.

Phrases seldom give allowances. The context of the phrase is about honour not racists.

Again, that makes no difference. A person's honour is not just about what others think about them. It is about how you see yourself.

To go back to my example of the black man in a town of bigots, consider the example of Frederick Douglass, who not only escapred from slavery, which would have been seen as dihonourable by most people where he was enslaved, but also refused to just be a show-piece for the abolotionist movement, preferring to found his own newspaper and become a politican in his own right. None of these actions involved him being "honourable" in the eyes of those around him. But it did to him.

How does a atheist druid love the gods of the ancestors if from a atheist standpoint they do not exist? You can't love nothing.

Again your inflexibility of thinking betrays you.

You can love an idea, even more so if it meant so much to your ancestors. I guess you either see that or you don't. I do and you don't <shrug>

The point is, do you love the idea of gods wanting blood sacrifices. Which you have already answered.[/quote]

No more or less than you do I imagine.

The point is that if you beleive those gods are real then they actually DID require the sacrifices, or their believers thought they did.And if the do not think they are real then only the latter applies.

So when it comes to the actions of their beleivers whether or not you think thweir gods are/were real makes very little difference. The act of loving them is still one of acceptance of what has been in the past, simply because they were your ancestors, and their gods, real or not, were their gods.

[cursuswalker]

No that is an assumption on your part. I would argue that the real minefield is for the literal polytheist, for whom those gods really exist and really required such sacrifices.

Which is a assumption on your part.

Oh so you don't think really exist? Then you are an atheist with regard to those gods and are purely arguing with yourself.

Or else you think they existed but did not require such sacrifices? Then in that case, again, the matter comes purely down to the actions of the ancestors, which you either accept, without condoning, or you do not.

[Arth Frown]

Oh so you don't think really exist? Then you are an atheist with regard to those gods and are purely arguing with yourself.

I'm not arguing, just trying to find out what atheist druids thinking is. It's been made a little clearer

[cursuswalker]

Oh so you don't think really exist? Then you are an atheist with regard to those gods and are purely arguing with yourself.

I'm not arguing, just trying to find out what atheist druids thinking is. It's been made a little clearer

An atheist druid's thinking is that there is zero evidence that any god has ever actually existed, but that this does not mean that one cannot respect the beliefs of ones ancestors, without sharing them.

[DJ Droood]

I'm curious as to your motivation in this thread, Arth Frown...you've already stated that you regard druidry as an "add on" to your Christianity...are you in "The Athiest Druid" thread in the Skeptical Druids forum...to witness?...reaffirm your spiritual choices? Bring an athiest to the light? I think the OP's position, and that of other non-theist druids has been made clear and repeated several times already....perhaps we should carry on this conversation in The Christian-Druid Path thread and hammer away there for awhile....

[cursuswalker]

I'm curious as to your motivation in this thread, Arth Frown...you've already stated that you regard druidry as an "add on" to your Christianity...are you in "The Athiest Druid" thread in the Skeptical Druids forum...to witness?...reaffirm your spiritual choices? Bring an athiest to the light? I think the OP's position, and that of other non-theist druids has been made clear and repeated several times already....perhaps we should carry on this conversation in The Christian-Druid Path thread and hammer away there for awhile....

I'm not sure Arth said the thing about an add-on to christianity, in fact I'd be very surprised if he did!

No, this is really quite simple. Arth has a huge problem with athiests within druidry, even though he does not call himself a druid. Each to their own I suppose...

[DJ Droood]

I'm not sure Arth said the thing about an add-on to christianity, in fact I'd be very surprised if he did!

I don't think druidry is a stand alone thing. Just a add on to whatever you follow.

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I just assumed by "whatever you follow" he meant "Christianity"....

[Arth Frown]

I'm curious as to your motivation in this thread, Arth Frown...you've already stated that you regard druidry as an "add on" to your Christianity...are you in "The Athiest Druid" thread in the Skeptical Druids forum...to witness?...reaffirm your spiritual choices? Bring an athiest to the light? I think the OP's position, and that of other non-theist druids has been made clear and repeated several times already....perhaps we should carry on this conversation in The Christian-Druid Path thread and hammer away there for awhile....

Hi DJ

I'm a British polytheist, but I also follow gaulic gods.
I supposed I asked so many questions because i didn't understand, which i apologised before i started asking questions.
Every time I got answers new questions arose.
I said druidry is a add on because you have atheist, wiccan, hindu, and polytheist druids. Which to me is why drudry is a add on to any world outlook or at least a way of enhancing that.

Cursuswalker has a idea that I'm anti athiest and/or anti atheist druidry. I think i have never said that I am. If I did that is not the case anymore. I was once a non-theist druid when i was first a druid about 12 years ago. Then was a polytheist druid followed by giving up the title of druid and became a Brython.

I really don't think it's my place to say if you are a atheist druid or whatever.

I hope that clears it up.

[cursuswalker]

Consider the case of the training god, Santa Clause (or your quaint regional variation), who I can say I loved, trusted and believed in with all my heart. My older sister, a nasty young proto-athiest, told me over several xmases that Santa wasn't real, but the television specials and songs, and most importantly, my imagination and need to believe, told me she was wrong. Eventually...I don't remember exactly when...I had pieced together enough evidence...finding gifts from Santa in the cold storage room on the 23rd...an awakening pubescent rationality....to gradually disbelieve in Santa. Later, I would be able to conceptualize Santa as a metaphore for "the spirit of giving" or "my parent's love".....I loved the idea and rituals of Santa enough to play the same game with my kids.

So maybe all this atheism business is just post-tramatic reaction to Santa....

LOL

And remember kids: Santa is one transposition away from Satan.

[DJ Droood]

I said druidry is a add on because you have atheist, wiccan, hindu, and polytheist druids. Which to me is why drudry is a add on to any world outlook or at least a way of enhancing that.

I suppose you can look at it any way you want. I consider myself fully engaged in druidry as my chosen spiritual discipline, and my non-theism is fully contained within it, (if you can contain a nothing...I am an agolfist druid as well...it could be a never-ending description if I listed everything I don't employ in my spiritual practices) so I don't need a hypen...simply druid is good enough for me....I suppose one persons "enhancement" is another's debasement. (I imagine there are a number of Christians/Wiccans and Hindu's, etc. who wouldn't see the "-druid" as a "value added" component...and vice versa) Huzzah for self-identification!

[cursuswalker]

This might give some indication as to where I come from on this.

In the 2011 Census I will put myself down as 'Pagan-Druid'. I am tempted to add the word 'Naturalist' but that would prevent me from adding my numbers to the group that really matters to me.

I will not use the word 'Atheist' because that does not describe my beleifs/practice in a positive way.

[day_2k]

Hello!

I am new here and very new to Druidry too, (I have just signed up to the OBOD course).
I read through this thread to try to get a handle on a question that has been running through my mind for the past few months, unfortunately although it may have been touched on, I wouldn’t mind a bit of clarity if you will indulge me? My question is..

Do most contemporary pagans actually believe in the gods as discrete, autonomous entities that can have some kind of physical impact on us or the natural world, or are they seen by the majority as a for of Jungian Archetype?

With the druidic gods, is it a case of the Egregore or thought form? (not wanting to belittle them or other’s beliefs in any way)
For example, with enough people being performing rituals and singing songs to, for instance Santa the god of Coca-Cola, does this much belief and devotion create a very real entity?

I also wanted to ask the Atheists... Do you engage with the “magic” of Druidry (not that I actually have much of an idea on how it works or what you do as yet as it seems to be a little bit unspoken from what I can tell so far?) and, if you do, do you believe it works? I imagine you don’t put this down to any kind of divine intervention/interaction?

As a bit of background , before finally reaching Druidry (through various forms of witchcraft and ceremonial magic that did not ring quite true) I came from a Chaos Magic stance where we are told that belief itself is the key to a powerful work and that “nothing is true, all is permitted.” (– William Burroughs)
Although this worked successfully for me, it did leave me wanting for a spiritual side of my life, but also with finding it hard to actually believe in anything!

I only ask these questions as I would love to believe in the gods as separate, powerful entities but I will need a good case put forward... any offers of conversion?.. please

Sorry for the brain dump!
I hope this was appropriate questioning and I haven’t missed a previously asked question in another area of this impressive forum!
D

[DJ Droood]

really good questions....

Do most contemporary pagans actually believe in the gods as discrete, autonomous entities that can have some kind of physical impact on us or the natural world, or are they seen by the majority as a for of Jungian Archetype?

I can't speak about "most", but many of the pagans I have met IRL sincerly believe in their gods as real, not archetypes (or possibly both real *and* archtypes.) I've never seen a qualitative difference between the faith of pagans, christians or any other religion.

With the druidic gods, is it a case of the Egregore or thought form? (not wanting to belittle them or other’s beliefs in any way)
For example, with enough people being performing rituals and singing songs to, for instance Santa the god of Coca-Cola, does this much belief and devotion create a very real entity?

wow...good word..I just googled it....I think that is a really cool way of looking at it. I've always enjoyed the power of group rituals, be they backwoods druid events or Christmas eve mass in a church. I think "group think" or "zeitgeist" is a powerful reality.

I also wanted to ask the Atheists... Do you engage with the “magic” of Druidry (not that I actually have much of an idea on how it works or what you do as yet as it seems to be a little bit unspoken from what I can tell so far?) and, if you do, do you believe it works? I imagine you don’t put this down to any kind of divine intervention/interaction?

sort of...I knock on wood, ask Asphalta for parking spaces, I did a "justice" spell once for someone who broke into my house, and I am somewhat superstitious, in an almost obsessive-compulsive way (I'll repeat certain things daily...like a sun salute). I wouldn't open an umbrella in the house, certain things like that...I don't really know if they work or not..maybe in some sort of chaos theory way that I don't understand...they are more like folk customs that seem to calm the spirit sometimes.

I doubt if there are many "pure" athiests who have rejected any and all forms of superstitious thought...we have all grown up in a culture that is steeped in it, after all. Perhaps the "atheist" simply recognizes it as superstitious thought and admits that his/her superstitious ideations are groundless..but maybe fun, like Santa...(instead of a manifestation of God's wrath against homosexuals, or whatever it is that religious people seem to focus on).

[wolf560]

How is an atheist ritual done? On a pagan or Christian one, a deity is usually involved.

As a former Atheist myself and the leader of a group that had several Atheists, I frequently had to adjust the rituals for them. Where some add in a place for the 'Deity(ies)' , we left a place open for 'personal reflections'.

Deities were only mentioned specifically for certain times/ dates/ rituals.

We had some that were very offended that we did not all "call in a particular Deity" but we explained that not everyone had the same God/Goddess. If we were to add one we would then add all and not everyone was comfortable calling in Deities that were not their own.

It actually worked out quite well as each person set up a personal altar space for their chosen 'personal reflection' and usually explained what they were doing to others.
We were a teaching Grove and Coven afterall and that went hand-in-hand with what we wanted to accomplish in the first place.

[wolf560]

Do you engage with the “magic” of Druidry and, if you do, do you believe it works?

Again, coming from the aspect of a former Atheist and long-standing Druid; yes and yes.

While and Atheist I never felt that my disbelief in higher beings interfered with my understanding of sympathetic magic. Experiencing and working with kinetic manipulations for the past few decades I have come to see that it works for whatever reason you may ascribe to it (some would say that it is 'self-fulfilling' while others insist that it only works because a gentle giant deity leans over and makes it go *poof*).

I believe that all 'magic' is from our self and not from outside. I still believe that no spell, ritual, prayer, or mass is any more powerful due to the presence of any Deity lending support. If one Deity were to lend its power to a working then another Deity would possibly interfere by lending counter-magick and we would see the Gods fighting against one another. I just do not see Taranis and Odin and Kali all working against each other just because a few Pagans dumped a little Mead and Little Debbie cakes on the Bael Fires.

That being said, I DO believe that if enough people concentrate upon doing something that there is an increased chance of it happening. I am more of the opinion that the original Gaulish and Brythonic Deities principles are in play; they help those that help themselves and are more interested in watching and wagering on the outcomes than on interceding and interacting. Of course all that is out the window if they spot a particularly good looking human of the opposite gender....!!!

That is the other thing I like about the Celtic (and Greco-Roman) Deities; they were never opposed to a little slap and tickle from time to time...

[day_2k]

Thank you for your comments and honesty DJ and Wolf, there is a lot to consider! it is a fascinating subject for me and would I would love to hear a non-atheists take on this (would they look here or should I post the relevant question elsewhere?) as well any other thoughts that anyone might have it is one of my favorite things to hear people tell me about their particular take on established ideas and how they manifest.

Please keep them coming I have a lot to learn

[wolf560]

I came from a Chaos Magic stance where we are told that belief itself is the key to a powerful work and that “nothing is true, all is permitted.” (– William Burroughs)

This is a very well-known concept and not restricted to Magic or Faith but open to humanity in general I believe. The concept is that you can do anything and that so long as you get away with it it must be OK to do since otherwise the great Pastafarian God would rain hot spaghetti sauce down upon your head.

I can only speak for myself and those around me when I say that whatever you do is more of a balance thing; or in simpler words "What goes around Comes around". Not so much a 'Karmic backlash" in another life so much as "only so much good and bad in persons life as any other".

In some peoples opinion the Ancient Celts felt that you got what you deserved and if you got too much you should "gift it back" somehow. There are many cases of historical finds of a great amount of Celtic goods that were dumped into rivers and wells for no apparent reason. I believe the Celts were "paying it forward" or causing a little grief in their life to compensate for a little good they had just gotten.

My theory for my life?
Pay it forward, and keep the Balance as much as possible.
My kinetic manipulations are structured so that I do not actually call upon any Deities for assistance and use very little of myself initially. I try not to disturb the relative balance of an area and actually commit myself more to continuing that balance rather than interfering at all (if possible).

[Davin Raincloud]

I think part of why I linger with a 'grasping' belief in God is Justice.

I don't actually believe in Karma, or you'll get what you deserve.

I've experienced and see so much injustice in this life.

I'm very skeptical of ideas of karma.

[DJ Droood]

I'm very skeptical of ideas of karma.

We have our eye on you, Davin...We think you show great promise.