The Filidh and Saint Patrick

[wolf560]

Hello,

My "Path" is referred to as "Draoieacht" (Irish Gaelic Druidry) and so I refer to the grades as Bard-Filidh-Druid. I use the word "Imbas" instead of Awen as this word is Welsh (nothing against the Welsh, I just use the Irish from whence I came wherever possible).

The Filidh were what the OBOD would call "Ovates" (roughly).

I am still trying to re discover a passage about St. Patrick converting a large group of Druids. The passage goes something like this; "Padraig (Gaelic for Patrick) walks in amongst the arguing Druids and argues on behalf of one group against the rest. The argument is of one group that wants to write things down and the rest are much against it. The group quits the Druids and follows Padraig afterwards attending to himself and his ministries both."

Many tracts of Gaelic writings say that the Filidh suddenly all walked away and began following St. Patrick and Christianity (in that order sometimes).

I know for a fact that Saint Patrick was personally attended by a Druid named Dubhthach. This same Druid was also demi-royalty of some sort (probably a wealthy land owner) and that Brighide (the same Christian female Saint at Kildare) was his daughter. Padraig also had two other Druids that became his close personal attendants "Ios" and "Auo" I think....

One of these three becomes one of the first Irish Bishops and possibly one of the first Arch Bishops. This of course all before the Vatican sends 150 of their own Bishops to supersede Patricks good works and (of course) the Irish Bishopry he emplaced.


Short verbage;
The Druidic group known as Filidh walk away one day after a heated argument about writing something and follow Patrick to the end of their existence.

The Filidh were responsible for the keeping of knowledge, usually by memorizing vast tracts of information by rote and endlessly repeating it to students and each other.

The Druids in several other tracts mention the fact the Roman writings and speech is eerywhere and people speak more Latin than Gaelic by the end of the first century.

The earliest Christian monks were mostly former Druids ("Filidh") and are responsible for writing much of what we now have (and use and refer to) as the earliest Irish/ Welsh/ Manx/ Scottish texts and stories.

Is it possible that the argument that Patrick walked in on was the Filidh saying that Gaelic was a dying language in a country overrun by Romans and that they all felt that things should be written down before everyone simply forgot about it?

[Huathe]

I find this to be interesting stuff since it really deals with Christian Druidism.

James

[DaRC]

Is it possible that the argument that Patrick walked in on was the Filidh saying that Gaelic was a dying language in a country overrun by Romans and that they all felt that things should be written down before everyone simply forgot about it?

There are some inherent weakness' in this idea -
The first being that the Romans never invaded Ireland.
There does appear to have been communication and trade with the Roman's during the period of the Roman empire and it is suspected that he arrived in Ireland or the earliest confirmed date of his being in Ireland is ca431CE which would be 20 years after the Romans left Britain (officially thought of as 410CE. It is thought that the hagiography's could be correct with Christianity being brought to Ireland from Romano-British Christians captured and enslaved as part of the Irish pirate raids that expanded after the Roman legions withdrew at the end of the 4th Century (ca 383CE).
There has been (I'd need to look up sources) some archaeological evidence that there may have been a Roman trading settlement in Ireland. I do not think, giving the later early Medieval Irish texts, that there is any idea that Ireland was overrun with Romans.

The second is the Gaelic language.
Around this time the Irish tribe called the Scotii were expanding their territory into modern day Scotland and in doing so superceding the Pictish language. So it could be argued that the Gaelic language was expanding. Is there any evidence that the Gaelic language was falling out of favour in Ireland at this time?

An alternative idea behind the argument could be that the Druid's were upholding the concept that Druidic knowledge should not be written down whilst the Filidh were against it?

[DJ Droood]

"Padraig (Gaelic for Patrick) walks in amongst the arguing Druids and argues on behalf of one group against the rest. The argument is of one group that wants to write things down and the rest are much against it. The group quits the Druids and follows Padraig afterwards attending to himself and his ministries both."

Sounds like the dynamic hasn't changed since then...bickering druids getting their knickers in a knot and starting a new faction/messageboard!

[wolf560]

Is it possible that the argument that Patrick walked in on was the Filidh saying that Gaelic was a dying language in a country overrun by Romans and that they all felt that things should be written down before everyone simply forgot about it?

There are some inherent weakness' in this idea -
The first being that the Romans never invaded Ireland.

The second is the Gaelic language.
Is there evidence that the Gaelic language was falling out of favour in Ireland at this time?

An alternative idea behind the argument could be that the Druid's were upholding the concept that Druidic knowledge should not be written down whilst the Filidh were against it?

Good points one and all .... and I agree completely with all of them.
(Maybe I should wait until daybreak and proof-read before posting sometimes )

I agree, the Romans never invaded Ireland but Christian Monks and Priests did.
While not a war of swords and a clash of steel there was a war of words and a clash of ideals between these two groups. Patrick was not the first Christian Priest to land in Ireland nor was he the last, but he was one of the most influential and successful to walk the Irish countryside. There was even a problem between Patrick and the Vatican for Rome sends 150 some odd Bishops to undo something that Patrick has done or agreed to (the date of Easter I believe). Gaelic was spoken and remained the 'official' or native tongue of Ireland for a long time, but Latin also existed and was both spoken and written. The Druids had known how to communicate with the Greeks and Romans centuries before and it is very likely they knew how to read and write both languages at the time of Patrick. This is what my sleep-addled brain was trying to communicate.

Yes, I firmly believe Patrick walked in on an argument in some form of Major Druidic area and that the group known as the Filidh walked away with him. I am very interested to find out what the argument was about and it is my theory that the Filidh were arguing against Druidic rules stating all things had to be memorized rather than written down. I believe the Filidh were arguing towards writing everything down before it was too late.

[wolf560]

Sounds like the dynamic hasn't changed since then...bickering druids getting their knickers in a knot and starting a new faction/messageboard!

LMAO

Yup, I agree....

Where three or more Druids gather there you will find a heated debate about something....

[DJ Droood]

Where three or more Druids gather there you will find a heated debate about something....

If you have 3 druids arguing in the evening, you will have 4 new internet Orders by morning.

[Huathe]

Where three or more Druids gather there you will find a heated debate about something....

If you have 3 druids arguing in the evening, you will have 4 new internet Orders by morning.

DJ,

I so much agree with you here! Druids are like Christian Pastors. Not only may they have radically different education levels they also often have inflexible views that they anger over when one's views is threatened. Both Druids and Pastors would have no problem if they would concentrate on important commonalities in their practices. For Druids, Nature & Ancestor Veneration are but two. For Pastors, God and Jesus. It should not be that hard.

But with both, religious belief differences and politics cause problems. That is what probably causes the large number of druid orders you speak of and of course the huge number of denominations in the Christian Church.

H.E.

[JohnPaulPatton]

The Filid are credited with writing in ogam on wooden staves and certainly on stone before Patrick arrived. Also there is no mention of your quote in Patricks Confessio. It might be from Murchu who made up lots of stuff about Patrick a few hundred years later to suit Armaghs PR machine for primacy over Kildare...