....So much Cargo?....

[Explorer]

Quote ''The serious question, I suppose, is this - are many modern pagans just treating their spirituality as a cargo cult rather than finding a deeper understanding?'

How on earth can you judge that?
It is hard enough to understand why we ourselves do anything than make judgements on other people for what they do/ how they dress / what they buy/ how or if they decorate their homes or how they practice their spirituality.

Is it not a load of 'looking down ones nose' at those less enlightened beings who don't do things our way?
Should we judge the people for making those type of judgements then?
Stop the hamster wheel I want to get off

Interesting questions.
Mmm, to be honest, yeah, I guess I do make those judgements. And why not? I'm not christian, so I don't have a judging-verbot.
Say... are you judging me for judging others?

I don't judge if it has nothing to do with me, but I think we are talking about our fellow druids now?
From my point of view my 'fellow druids' screw up the chances to make this a genuine nature spirituality.
I love my bling-friends dearly, but I don't like at all what they cause by acting like pampered children.
Yeah, I guess that I do judge that.

[Explorer]

now I think of it.... I judge a lot more. I judge stupidity also, and dishonesty, and lots of other stuff. Even when it has nothing to do with me.
Nothing wrong with a bit of judging if you ask me. Some people even make their jobs of it, like judges, and isn't that what we see as one of the 'traditional' roles of druids?
(slightly veering off-topic).

[DJ Droood]

now I think of it.... I judge a lot more. I judge stupidity also, and dishonesty, and lots of other stuff. Even when it has nothing to do with me.
Nothing wrong with a bit of judging if you ask me. Some people even make their jobs of it, like judges, and isn't that what we see as one of the 'traditional' roles of druids?
(slightly veering off-topic).

Nothing wrong with judging...people aren't judged harshly enough, imo...we are a bunch of mamby-pamby milquetoasts, with fragile "feelings", given a free pass for our stupidity (like Nico's)...I blame Spock (the Doctor, not the Vulcan) and hippie parenting.

[Turtle]

I was watching a National Geographic movie this morning and they had a question that struck me.... "Why you Europeans have so much cargo and we New Guineans have so little?" New Guineans use the word "cargo" for material possessions and the power they represent.

I am looking at my Pagan Community in new terms now....
... how much does the possession of material things influence how other pagans few their fellow pagans around the ritual fire pit?...

How much reverence do we give others because of what they wear or what they possess?

Interesting question. I am not much 'into others' at the moment as far as my paganism is concerned. It's been a while since I shared rituals with fellow druids although I have been to a couple of sweatlodges. So I had to do a little stroll down memory lane and dig a little deeper.

In a way I tend to shy away from ostentious displays of possession, but the same goes for ostentatious displays of spirituality. I distrust those who spend too much but also those who claim to spend nothing on spirituality haberdashery like crystals, tarot decks, the right shabby pagan clothes etc. I guess in the end I have the most sympathy for those who manage to not have money changing hands or at least no more money as can be reasonably be accounted for.

I wish there were more spaces where we could experience and share our spirituality without paying unreasonable amounts of money, they seem to be few and far apart.

The place I go to for sweatlodges has a voluntary attribution, to be put in a vase before you leave. No one needs to know how much you feel it's worth or how much you can afford to spend this time. Still, perfection and balance in my perception would be a donation in natura. Something you know your host can use really well. It could be passing down clothes for the children, a couple bags of coffee beans, deep frozen soup because you know they have a busy week ahead, recycled timber for that fence they are building etc.

In the past I organized rituals and tarot workshops that cost nothing except your own expenses to get there and something for a potluck dinner or picknick. I was pleasantly suprised if people were willing to travel half the country to come and share. I was also glad if they expressed they gotten something good out of it. In the end it was all about respect. If you work on the principle of 'no money changing hands' you need to inspire respect in others, respect for your time and what you are able to offer. I know of people who started charging money, because they experienced others being less respectful of their time and talents otherwise. So, perhaps that is where our big challenge lies.

Els

[Explorer]

I guess in the end I have the most sympathy for those who manage to not have money changing hands or at least no more money as can be reasonably be accounted for.

I wish there were more spaces where we could experience and share our spirituality without paying unreasonable amounts of money, they seem to be few and far apart.

The place I go to for sweatlodges has a voluntary attribution, to be put in a vase before you leave. No one needs to know how much you feel it's worth or how much you can afford to spend this time. Still, perfection and balance in my perception would be a donation in natura. Something you know your host can use really well. It could be passing down clothes for the children, a couple bags of coffee beans, deep frozen soup because you know they have a busy week ahead, recycled timber for that fence they are building etc.

In the past I organized rituals and tarot workshops that cost nothing except your own expenses to get there and something for a potluck dinner or picknick. I was pleasantly suprised if people were willing to travel half the country to come and share. I was also glad if they expressed they gotten something good out of it. In the end it was all about respect. If you work on the principle of 'no money changing hands' you need to inspire respect in others, respect for your time and what you are able to offer. I know of people who started charging money, because they experienced others being less respectful of their time and talents otherwise. So, perhaps that is where our big challenge lies.

I second that!

[DaRC]

''The serious question, I suppose, is this - are many modern pagans just treating their spirituality as a cargo cult rather than finding a deeper understanding?'

How on earth can you judge that?

A good point I would guess it is something that each pagan needs to look at within themselves - only they can judge.

As others have said I would guess that the converse should also be true - that one should not be judged for their lack of cargo as well.

[Twig]

I tend to be a solitary practitioner, but I do have some pagan "stuff" around. I don't feel the need to have a lot of jewelry, but I do like that which expresses my spirituality. Since most people have no idea what it is I am wearing, they just stare and wonder!

Here's a laugh for y'all. A lot of you will remember this bit by George Carlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac

[Heddwen]

Very good Twig

[Aylyn]

Thanks Twig, I never heard of this guy, but you have opened a new world there What he says about stuff is absolutely right.....

I think it has something to do with marking your territory: You only feel safe in an area you know and own, and that is marked by our items, much as a dog marks his territory. Sure, we are having a lot more items nowadays, since we can afford it and are mainly stationary. I left a lot of things behind in the last 10 years, as constant moving makes you reduce your stuff....

What I cannot leave behind is my books though, and they make the bulk of my boxes when I move. Maybe I do not need them, but I feel like they are friends, and I do not leave friends behind

[Bartholomew]

I can't part with my books either. I have magic, mystery and esoteric subjects of much interest to be dipped in and out of , not much fiction though. Old friends indeed. I just don't have much stuff or buy much stuff because it just doesn't appeal to me. I don't like knick knacks and collections. I can't see the point, just stuff to worry about and clean and tidy and I don't like cleaning either. I'm not into gadgets or cars except my ipod for running and walking with. When my kids have left home I think I will up sticks and change my life completely, probably live on a canal boat or maybe in a cave or a tent at this rate.
As for judging people, we all do it. If you like doing it, carry on. If you don't, stop. Because I don't think our judgements make that much difference to how somebody chooses to live their lives. So really it is all just pointless.

[wolf560]

Aylyn,

Love your Blue Dragon..!!!

[Susanne]

Here's a laugh for y'all. A lot of you will remember this bit by George Carlin:

Oh, thank you so much for that. I remember George Carlin when I was growing up. He had so many great skits, even my mother loved him. The one I remember best is the Seven Deadly Words....thankfully my mother never heard that one....
Thanks again for the memories!
Sue

[Frog]

Just a sidebar on what is a very interesting conversation. I read an article late last year on money - and how it's term "Currency" really comes to fruition when we spend it, rather than hoard it. When I look at my colleagues in the Druid Marketplace, whether the items are silver, copper, wood, leather - or even the written word - we are still looking at the buying and selling of stuff. Even our Chosen Chief does something to put bread on his table.

So if people are selling "stuff" to be able to buy food, then someone somewhere must be collecting stuff. They may then decide to sell it on as well. As typically the pagan/wiccan/new age collective tends (in the most part) to buy from itself (after all, the corporate giants don't tend to sell much of the wands, athames etc) then to some extent going to Glastonbury, or a gathering, and purchasing an item or two is keeping our friends fed.

I guess what I'm trying to hint at here is that buying the bling - or the books - is no bad thing, provided we consider where it came from and the impact that its purchase may have (in the same way we all try to look at buying ethically sourced food).

And for me, yes I do have quite a few items of pagan jewellery bling. I've never really worried about it - it's now as much a part of me as the Cowboy boots that I wear with my suit (and the Chief Exec commented on this at my leaving do last week!)

[Explorer]

I guess what I'm trying to hint at here is that buying the bling - or the books - is no bad thing, provided we consider where it came from and the impact that its purchase may have (in the same way we all try to look at buying ethically sourced food).

And for me, yes I do have quite a few items of pagan jewellery bling. I've never really worried about it - it's now as much a part of me as the Cowboy boots that I wear with my suit (and the Chief Exec commented on this at my leaving do last week!)

In the case of druidry I do see a difference between buying/selling goods, and buying/selling spiritual experiences.
That has to do with the fact that I regard druidry as a nature spirituality, and that those kind of experiences should be free.

I never had to pay for such experiences when I didn't call it druidry. I just went hiking and it all just happened by itself.
But now that I do it organised, with others, I suddenly have to pay for guys flown in from england, beating on a drum. Or women telling me to shut up, close my eyes and think really deep about nothing. I find that pretty crazy. But if I don't pay up, they won't let me in to see my friends.

This really litterly happened to me the first time in Glastonbury. I didn't know about the gatherings there, I'm dutch and didn't have Touchstone magazine. And by utter coincidence I ended up in Glastonbury during a vacation on the day of the summer gathering, not only that, I was right outside the Town Hall where the eistedfodd was starting. And I wanted to go in to greet the first international OBODies I ever encountered, but the bastards didn't let me in, because I hadn't payed the fee. And guess what, when they came over to our camp later, WE had to pay THEM for coming. It is stuff like that that can really piss me off.

It is not about the specific prices of specific events, but the money-attitude, and that it is okay to ask money to provide "nature experiences". There is a line that you don't cross, imho, unless you want to sell mother nature as a whore and become her pimp. And if druidry is a nature spirituality, then its rituals are part of these experiences. You just don't ask money for that, nor for being invited into a camp. You eighter say YES, or you say NO, but you don't name your price and still keep your honour. IMFHO!. (and now I'm going to calm down and hug a tree).

[DaRC]

I guess what I'm trying to hint at here is that buying the bling - or the books - is no bad thing, provided we consider where it came from and the impact that its purchase may have (in the same way we all try to look at buying ethically sourced food).

Yep I was thinking about this the other night on the cycle home - whilst the commercial side of places like Glastonbury, in some respects, feels anti-pagan they are a necessary link in the chain. They provide an income for those pagan's and also disseminates information to the wider public, often providing a route in that those seeking these paths can find.

Within the bicycle world it is well accepted that the many "all the gear, no idea" people also provide a valuable revenue stream into business' that allows them to improve and develop their bikes and parts. Thus we, the grass roots cyclists, all benefit because of it.

[skydove]

Hi Nico,
I can see why you got upset after your experience at Glastonbury, but I think that they weren't charging for the 'spiritual' part of the experience, rather the material part of hiring the hall, food, travel expenses of speakers to get there, etc which does in fact cost a lot to put on and if you haven't contributed to this by buying a ticket it's sad and frustrating but you wouldn't be able to share that particular experience.

Our personal experience of nature and all we do ourselves alone or with a small group of friends can be free or for expenses only and tailored to our own budgets but larger gatherings do have larger expenses. From what I've seen of the few druids I've met in the flesh, I don't think any are raking it in by cheating their fellow walkers of the spiritual paths out of their money in fact most seem to bend over backwards to give freely of their time and share their knowledge, and if they do have to sell what they do I think it is just to make enough to live on and support their families - of course how much they need to live on will vary with lifestyle and personal commitments.

It would be wonderful if everything were free and most experiences of druidry can cost very little, though some have to be saved up for.

[Explorer]

Hi Nico,
I can see why you got upset after your experience at Glastonbury, but I think that they weren't charging for the 'spiritual' part of the experience, rather the material part of hiring the hall, food, travel expenses of speakers to get there, etc which does in fact cost a lot to put on and if you haven't contributed to this by buying a ticket it's sad and frustrating but you wouldn't be able to share that particular experience.

Ofcourse those are the reasons. And I could come with other reasons for not allowing me in also. It is logical.
But could you also think of a reason why they would have welcomed me?
If you can, then perhaps you can sense what my problem with the current mindset and dynamic is.

Our personal experience of nature and all we do ourselves alone or with a small group of friends can be free or for expenses only and tailored to our own budgets but larger gatherings do have larger expenses. From what I've seen of the few druids I've met in the flesh, I don't think any are raking it in by cheating their fellow walkers of the spiritual paths out of their money in fact most seem to bend over backwards to give freely of their time and share their knowledge, and if they do have to sell what they do I think it is just to make enough to live on and support their families - of course how much they need to live on will vary with lifestyle and personal commitments.

Again, ofcourse.
Most organisers I know are honest hardworking people. It is not them that who's arses I want to kick, but everybody elses. Because because 'we' act like consumers, 'they' have to charge so much money, because they have to buy everything.
I know this, because they offered me money for my rituals and workshops also, which I refused. And I also know how that sometimes works further up the obod-ladder, because I talk to the people who organize these events, some of who are my close friends. If we would all give and share our time and knowledge freely, then these costs would be minimized.

And the obod-leadership is the most visible in this. If they sell their time and knowledge, then everybody else thinks that they can do that also. And that is why we end up with a pagan-economy, instead of nature-spirituality.

There is another way, and I intend to prove it.

[DJ Droood]

This may have been covered, but i'd just like to say i love and appreciate handicrafts of any sort, and think the production, sale or trade of the material culture of neo-paganism is legitimate. Wands and jewelry and clothing, etc, are ways of expression...not just things we consume...so I draw a distinction between something handcrafted...including things like CDs, and something that was produced by child labour or shipped from 2000 miles away, or is motivated by exploitation of the culture, not an expression of it. There is no sin in consumption, in and off itself...we just have to be mindful of how we consume (and produce!)..."why" we consume/produce is really our own business.

imagine a world without producers?

[skh]

[ But if I don't pay up, they won't let me in to see my friends.

This really litterly happened to me the first time in Glastonbury. I didn't know about the gatherings there, I'm dutch and didn't have Touchstone magazine. And by utter coincidence I ended up in Glastonbury during a vacation on the day of the summer gathering, not only that, I was right outside the Town Hall where the eistedfodd was starting. And I wanted to go in to greet the first international OBODies I ever encountered, but the bastards didn't let me in, because I hadn't payed the fee.

Some background information, for those who haven't been to the OBOD Summer gathering: the evening Eisteddfod is basically a 4-5 hour concert with lots of delicious veggie food, booked and paid in advance and usually sold out a few weeks before the event. The venue holds about 200 people.

The ritual on or near Glastonbury Tor on Saturday afternoon is public and free for everyone to attend.

peace /|\
Sonja

[Heddwen]

[ But if I don't pay up, they won't let me in to see my friends.

This really litterly happened to me the first time in Glastonbury. I didn't know about the gatherings there, I'm dutch and didn't have Touchstone magazine. And by utter coincidence I ended up in Glastonbury during a vacation on the day of the summer gathering, not only that, I was right outside the Town Hall where the eistedfodd was starting. And I wanted to go in to greet the first international OBODies I ever encountered, but the bastards didn't let me in, because I hadn't payed the fee.

Some background information, for those who haven't been to the OBOD Summer gathering: the evening Eisteddfod is basically a 4-5 hour concert with lots of delicious veggie food, booked and paid in advance and usually sold out a few weeks before the event. The venue holds about 200 people.

The ritual on or near Glastonbury Tor on Saturday afternoon is public and free for everyone to attend.

peace /|\
Sonja

I remember that year well. I met Nico and many other OBODies on the campsite in Glasters, the Saturday afternoon ritual was cancelled due to torrential rain. It was literally a case of surfs up on the Tor, we were all soaked through.It was reorganised quickly for the Sunday afternoon after we had been to stonehenge and the assembly, but most people were leaving because of the weather...seems like yesterday!