....So much Cargo?....

[Explorer]

[ But if I don't pay up, they won't let me in to see my friends.

This really litterly happened to me the first time in Glastonbury. I didn't know about the gatherings there, I'm dutch and didn't have Touchstone magazine. And by utter coincidence I ended up in Glastonbury during a vacation on the day of the summer gathering, not only that, I was right outside the Town Hall where the eistedfodd was starting. And I wanted to go in to greet the first international OBODies I ever encountered, but the bastards didn't let me in, because I hadn't payed the fee.

Some background information, for those who haven't been to the OBOD Summer gathering: the evening Eisteddfod is basically a 4-5 hour concert with lots of delicious veggie food, booked and paid in advance and usually sold out a few weeks before the event. The venue holds about 200 people.

The ritual on or near Glastonbury Tor on Saturday afternoon is public and free for everyone to attend.

Yes, those people had a right to their delicious veggy food that they had booked and payed for.
So, tell me, hypothetically. What would you do if you had organised a feast. And you hear that a fellow druid from abroad dropped by by coincidence in a similar fashion.
Would you think "damn, he's coming to eat our food, drink our beer, listen to our music, and he didn't pay" and say "get lost, we're sold out".
Is that really all that matters? True, this is how we treat each other in our regular society these days. Do you sense the problem that I have with this attitude?

By the way, I would have refused a meal, and not just because I just came out of the restaurant across the street.
The next day, somebody recognized from my own country recognized me, and invited me to the ritual.

[wolf560]

The closest I can relate this to is a Beltaine feast that I organized for 300 Pagans in North Carolina. We had food for an estimated 300-325 people and over 400 showed up. we had actually gone to the trouble of procuring a full-size half a roast pig..!!

I did not ask for permission, I merely made everyone's portion a little smaller and charged the new arrivals the same thing I charged everyone else. Since a few of them had brought drinks and desserts, we were not totally fouled up by their addition.

Nobody minded and everyone had a blast...
.... and we were able to say that we had an impromptu 400 person pagan gathering

[Explorer]

The closest I can relate this to is a Beltaine feast that I organized for 300 Pagans in North Carolina. We had food for an estimated 300-325 people and over 400 showed up. we had actually gone to the trouble of procuring a full-size half a roast pig..!!

I did not ask for permission, I merely made everyone's portion a little smaller and charged the new arrivals the same thing I charged everyone else. Since a few of them had brought drinks and desserts, we were not totally fouled up by their addition.

Nobody minded and everyone had a blast...
.... and we were able to say that we had an impromptu 400 person pagan gathering

There you go.

The group that I often visit is made possible by folks who offer the land of their organic garden for free. Not only for rituals, they also started to do gatherings now. (last one was 10 euro).
And they organize harvest markets on the lands of a castle for free. The castle owner likes that so much, that in turn he offers his castle for midwinter celebrations. (can you believe it? a real bloody castle? Including heralds on horseback that sounded the horn when we walked in, absolutely amazing) We all bring some food and drink, we make music, and we have a real banquet in a real castle, followed by a ritual and a sword fight on the court yard between Holly King and Oak King. For free, apart from a volunteerly donation of a few euro's. It can be done.

If a stray druid would arrive, we would let him in ofcourse. But I do wonder now, if we would have paid 100 euro for such a feast, would people then prefer to not let him in?
Is it the money that kills the hospitality?

[Serpentia]

I am an organizer.. I have been part of the team that organized the last four OBOD camps in Germany and Damh's concert at Imbolc here last year.

All of these camps we charged a certain amount of money for, because we have to pay for the space where we have them. Twice an open-air museum, then a youth hostel, now a youth camp with huts for Ostara. We charge for rooms, food, the concert (because how else to pay for flight tickets) and we kept costs as low as we could and still provide for a comfortable stay. Not everybody likes to camp.

It all comes down to creature comforts and paying for rooms and food, first of all. Then comes the availability of "talent".. that is something you cannot often start with by yourself, that takes year of "germination". And even local talent often has travel costs.. or wants their bed free of charge. Understandable.

Then come the legal aspects - and they also cost money. The larger the group, the more organization you have, the more aspects you have to consider. Last year somebody put a hole in a tablecloth.. sure, it's only EUR 20 in value, but who pays for it? What if somebody trips and falls? Our world, I'm afraid, is a complicated one - and expensive.

So where does "necessary evil" end and "bling" start? Hard to say, I would assume the answer is different for each one of us - and what we expect.

Are we now way off topic here? Maybe I should start an organizer's gripe and complain thread... and how you can't do right by everybody...

Do I have to answer the question if we would have let Nico in on one of our events... ??? Yes, we would have found a way.

Serpentia

[Explorer]

I know, I know.

But isn't this just the logical and masculine directed way that you are taught to think about how things need to be 'organized'? Like a druid-grader? . There is also another way to think about this, out-of-the-box, like an ovate.
I think we need to distinguish between spiritual gatherings and entertainment events (like the Damh concert you organized).

- In the entertainment events I can understand that you 'organize' it the way you say, the organisation style reflects what you buy into. You buy entertainment, and everybody has a choice to pay the price or not. And I don't shy away from those events either, as you know.

- In spiritual gatherings, like camps and rituals, I expect the organisation style to reflect the spirituality.
In druidry that means honour, trust, personal responsiblity. Magic, love, companionship. And last, but not least, Nature.

And in this case, you may not want to start with "who do we pay to do what? And how much comfort do we require and what does it cost?". But instead you could choose an approach that reflects what you are trying to do, a spiritual gathering.

You could for instance start with a ritual, to invite the spirits of the event, with the intentions to welcome everybody who is willing to give their time, space, goods, food, energy, knowledge, artistic skills, idea's, even money if you must. And with that magic you weave your web and develop the event further.
Depending how that magic works, you contact people, who will give abundantly, or not. And then it may become more comfortable and beautiful than you could have imagined. Like our rituals in that castle. Or if nobody gives a sh*t, then it becomes small and primitive. But whatever happens, it will reflect the magic and the druid community. And being part of that, is really being part of that, instead of buying into it.

I think that certain people will no longer show up then, the ones who expect others to pay for their expenses and presence. Likewise, the people who only come to rub elbows with their 'rock stars'. But I don't think that is a loss, it may make things more pure. And you may be surprised who might show up anyway, when it becomes known that you operate through magic instead of money.

This is not a rant against the Glastonbury gathering. In fact, I'm planning to buy my way into that splendid entertainment next time. It is a complaint against turning our spiritual gatherings into consumer driven entertainment. Which is a responsibility of all of us together.

(I'm fine with being off-topic. I think this is an important discussion, but I don't mind that we do it here in a almost hidden thread in Skeptical that nobody reads, better than high profile in OBOD general at this point, imo).

[Aylyn]

I think two things are being confused here. One, that is the "official" gatherings organized by OBOD or any other organization, where a venue is booked, a program is set and other organized stuff is going on. These events cannot be done at the spur of the moment, depending on who shows up, they need planning and work and ultimately money, so a fee to join should be required. Since you are not forced to go to these events, I see no harm in charging.

The second is the kind of unplanned, spontaneous event that gets organized as it comes along, and does not need a lot of planning, and certainly no charge. There is nothing to stop you or anyone else to do the second kind of event, and maybe that will prevail in the future, and become the reality for more gatherings and events. Would be nice....

I just do not see a contradiction between the two, and as a person with a job and the money to go with it I am usually happy to contribute so that people who don't have as much can participate as well. What pisses me off, however, is the kind of freewheeling beggars that are happy to leech off you on the name of "open spirituality" and "all men are brothers" or whatever their chosen words are. Just because they are too lazy to get a job does not mean they can use my money.

Not that I am saying you belong to this category, not by far, but there are enough especially in the pagan circles who do. So for an organizer it can be a tough decision to make: Is this really a fellow druid who happened to show up by chance, or is it a leech without the intention to contribute and now lying to you to get in? Some of the people who organize it are more lenient, and that might work, and some are more strict. Seems you ran into one of the strict ones.

As for charging for seminars: I know that a friend of mine is part financing herself by doing these. Sure she charges for it, not an outrageous amount, but certainly more than 10£. And her workshops have always been well organized and eye-opening. Again, i have no problem paying my money to reward her for the time she spends planning so Ihave a good and interesting time. While a lot of druidry comes for free in the woods, it is sometimes nice to be in an organized seminar and get a different POV as well.

It is the diversity that does it for me. We can choose to take a paid seminar or event, or to organize our own for free and share freely. This is not Scientology where you can only succeed if you spend lots of money on special courses, we have a choice. And I am open for both inds of events/ courses/ gatherings.

[Turtle]

So where is that line between asking a fair amount for expenses made and energy and making a living of druidry (in this case, goes for all spiritual paths).

I guess deep down inside I deem it not to be OK to live of your spirituality. Part of me is being very judgemental in saying 'Get a proper job if you are at all able bodied! I do' but others feel differently about this. Spirituality is their job and they want to make their living of it. In the meantime it has become almost impossible to share a spiritual meeting with new people and learn something new without paying 'an obsceen amount of money'.

This becomes especially frustrating if you have been on this path for some time. Because if you do succumb, if only because you wanted to meet some new people, you find yourself paying for something that is at a basic level that you have long since grown out of. And if you don't socially network, you simply do not get in touch with the people that are offering for the sole purpose of sharing knowledge, experience and sharing.

Els

[Aylyn]

That's why I like the internet, you can always get in touch with like minded people for free, and it is not limited to where you live....

[wolf560]

Hey there..!!

I do not mind the "turn in the topic" as far as Pagan gatherings either and since I started the thread let's just say I was thinking of it all along .

For us it came down to one word, term, theme of Celtic spirituality that we just could not get away from; Hospitality. That term is two-sided in that both the guest and the host owe each other certain things, and neither should shirk their roles. The guest should try to do whatever is needed to lessen the impact on the host and the host should plan ahead a little and try to be understanding. Perhaps bottom line some events are so tightly planned that no "wiggle room" is left...

I do see both sides and yes I have organized events that took months to properly plan out (the above Beltaine event was one such). 300 Pagans that turned into 450 may seem small potatoes in light of other gatherings, but when I started this event I was planning for every single pagan group in Fayetteville NC. Shamans, and Druids and Wiccans and Heriditary Witches sitting beside Pagan Christians and even a couple of Satanists. I knew of 5 Covens in town and 7 actually showed up. I knew of 150 Solitaires and we lost count of how many arrived after 250.

I do not know how 'volatile' the OBOD gatherings have ever been but the "Pagan ties of similarity" were tenuous at best with us. Most of these Pagans had hated each other for years and this Beltaine was the first time they were standing in the same place at the same time. We knew some of the Covens had disliked each other for decades and probably had forgotten why. We knew that the Solitaires distrusted everyone even within their own ranks. Promises had to be made and enforced that nobody would try to 'convert' or recruit' anyone else. The event 'Guardians' missed out on nearly every venue and event. It took me nearly two years of planning and organizing to get this Beltaine off the ground.

Since it was a Pagan gathering and we knew Pagans like to celebrate; we had to lay down rules and have rule keepers wandering around. "Peace tied weapons", "Adult only areas where alcohol could be had", and "Children play areas" had to be set aside. Porta-Potties had to be rented and trash receptacles placed about.

As to the classes, we made a mistake and charged no money for them. Yes... I said we made a mistake. With the eventual 450 some odd Pagans that arrived all of our classes were overwhelmed. The Sweat lodge was actually damaged by someone who could not fit inside it and got frustrated with the doorway. Our meditation classes were continuously interrupted by passers by and some even in the class that refused to shut (or thought they could teach the class better).

After this Beltaine plans were made on how to improve for the next one and the idea of charging for classes was brought up. Everyone one of us agreed that if the students had been charged, even a modest fee, that they probably would have been more respectful.

Although the next Beltaine was bigger and better and went off without a hitch, it was also the last major event that we did. The community shattered a few months later as the Heriditary Witches attempted to take over the Pagan Council and all of the different Covens and al of the 200(+) Solitaires left and never came back.

Our dream of a Community that truly all worked and played nice together disappeared in a single puff of Hubris. That was 2004 and the town has not been able to get more than 10 Pagans together ever since.


I think that charging for classes is the right thing to do and I have no issue with a Pagan making a living off of their spirituality. If that spirituality can actually be deemed 'skilled' or 'artful'. To deny them the chance or opportunity would be like saying a painter cannot sell their paintings or a musician should not charge for their songs.

There is probably a limit; perhaps that it be a real skill at play and not someone using a 'Magic 8-ball' in a tent to give people fortunes and charging them for it.... But I do stand by the right of a person to pay for a service and for a person to charge for their time.


The only form of 'spirituality' that I feel uncomfortable about someone charging for is perhaps leading someone else in prayer. I do admit this is tricky ground, and we are veering off-topic on the paying for Pagan services here... so I will start a new thread on it if someone has not already done so.

[Turtle]

That's why I like the internet, you can always get in touch with like minded people for free, and it is not limited to where you live....

Perhaps, but when it comes to people 'there ain't nothing like the real thing, baby!'

Els

[eilis]

That is awesome how you all can totally ignore reality

[Huathe]

Mark,

Pagan Christians? Or do you mean Pagans & Christians?

[wolf560]

No, we actually had a very small group of women that called themselves 'Pagan Christians'.

I never asked them for particulars but they followed a mix of Christianity that did not hold a grievance against Witchcraft. I know that they followed a practice wherein Aradia and a vestige of the Stregha belief system was followed. They held that 'Angels' were among us and that the Lord and Lady was (somehow) interconnected with the Land around them.

In history there was an incidence where the Italian Witches began standing up to the Church throughout central and southern Italy. Two groups of Witches tried to show that the Witches were not something the Christian Church could make 'disappear'.

The Benedotti believed that by helping out their fellow villagers and showing that they could do good things, that the Church would have no choice but to support them.
The Maledotti believed that if they outwardly could do things that the local priests could not stop that the Witchcraft was more powerful.

Unfortunately for both Witch groups the Church used the things that the Maledotti did and said "all Witches are Bad".

The word Maledotti is roughly translated as "Bad Witch".
The word Benedotti is roughly translated as "Good Witch"
This is the earliest instance where I have found these two phrases used by the way.

[Bartholomew]

That's very interesting Mark. I came across the Stregha on my roamings around the internet. Bloodline witchcraft passed through the generations and so on, I don't know if I bookmarked it but will have a look, and I also came across an interesting piece on Wizards in history. I will quote it if I can find it later.
There you go Hawthorn-Ent we do have a category after all.
I reckon Jesus was a Druid anyway. Gathering people together on hilltops and sharing food for free. Hands on healing and Bardic parables. What has this thread been about all along.?

[Explorer]

I reckon Jesus was a Druid anyway. Gathering people together on hilltops and sharing food for free. Hands on healing and Bardic parables. What has this thread been about all along.?

Ah yes, it was about Jesus all along, silly of me that I didn't see that.

[Bartholomew]

Now Nico, don't be so hard on yourself and please don't draw me into another debate in skeptics corner. I am of a delicate, sensitive nature and I will become psychologically damaged by such confrontation.
I didn't mean to say the whole thread was about Jesus at all and in no way was inferring that you were proclaiming a modern day gospel. The similarities between Jesus's style and what Druid Eistedfodds consist of , just struck me whilst getting ready for work. An observation veering wildly off track. I''l be quiet for a bit, perhaps find me wizard stuff and come back later.

[wolf560]

I'm as guilty as anyone for 'turning 90 degrees on a topic", but I really think that (sometimes) a brief stroll down a side lane can bring a new perspective on the real avenue once we get back on the trail.

The basic question I asked was do we carry around "... too much Cargo..."..??

Does it really require a six foot staff, a nine pound broadsword, a cast iron stew pot, and a pentacle the size of a manhole cover to perform ritual? Is it necessary to arrive at the ritual with five necklaces of silver and gold, a black t-shirt with 'My Gods are better...', and a crushed green velvet robe?

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't...
I will admit that in private ritual I will sometimes drag out my finest, and that I do own a nice robe, cloak and have on occasion pulled out my longsword.

But the real question is not about 'Bling' but whether you 'Need the stuff' in order to perform the Ritual or the Kinetic Manipulations..... and my personal opinion is that while it is not needed, it can certainly help to at least focus what you have upon the task at hand.

When I put on my favorite heavy ring every morning, I can feel within it the substance of some of my previous workings. I do feel as though I can keep something of the residual energies I was working with the night or the weekend previously.


This being the forum of the 'Skeptical Druid' I am thus exposing myself to the skepticism of others.... what do you all think of what I am proposing?

Can these 'tools' hold a residual part of our energies for either our use later on or do they simply augment our workings by focusing what we have there at that moment in time? Do they in fact do anything at all other than jingle and jangle at our neck or on our fingers?

[DJ Droood]

This being the forum of the 'Skeptical Druid' I am thus exposing myself to the skepticism of others.... what do you all think of what I am proposing?

Can these 'tools' hold a residual part of our energies for either our use later on or do they simply augment our workings by focusing what we have there at that moment in time? Do they in fact do anything at all other than jingle and jangle at our neck or on our fingers?

I think you can imbue meaning into anything, and have it take on symbolic importance for you. For me, that is "magic" and very real....it doesn't have to be a gift from the fairies, does it? You are in control of which objects (or places or creatures) have special meaning to you, and why, and if wearing a necklace you got on a trip to Avebury, or made by a "magical" friend or with the creative magic of your own hands makes you feel connected with your spirituality and chosen subculture, where is the harm?

[Bartholomew]

Psychometry is the act of holding an item of jewellry or something used by a person and doing a psychic reading based on the energy picked up from it.
I believe crystals, places, buildings and rooms can also hold negative or positive energy depending on what has happened there or the intentions of the people using them.
Also I think using a specific tool, eg, a wand or dressing in a certain way is a good way of turning the mind and intention away from the mudane and prepares one for working with the otherworld.
As a painter& decorator said to me Preparation is the key. Prime, undercoat and gloss.

[Heddwen]

I suppose many would place importance on the transition between the worlds, so to speak. By robing up they are preparing to move into the ritual space. To me it doesn't seem quite the same wearing jeans and a T shirt, even if I am practising alone. It helps the focus and intention.
There is no one to impress with the bling when we are alone but perhaps by blinging up we are acknowledging who we really are by accepting and incorporating our druid selves into our persona.We spend most of our time in mundane...e.g.jobs, the dress code there may not allow for our spiritual leanings.Instead of 'dress down' Fridays why not have dress up festival days?