Vegetarianism

[DJ Droood]

I'd say we agree on this but tell me...In your opinions, what is the solution?

Don't eat meat.

Or if you do, buy it from one of the pig utopias bloggers seem able to find. (good luck with that). Or grow your own. Or hunt your own (or eat road kill or buy hunted meat.) Although still more ethical than factory meat, these options aren't "scalable" either, and are more of an eccentric indulgence than a solution.

Or, as a modest proposal, maybe start a campaign in your region to eat stray and unwanted cats and dogs....there are huge numbers of them and they are locally sourced meat. They are no smarter than pigs...the kill will be clean and efficient....

You don' have to call it "vegetarianism". That has become a socially dangerous label that associates a person with all manner of perversions, such as "environmentalism" and lama wool hats.

I am going to practice neo-Pythagoreanism, although I eat beans and can't get behind the anti-bean part of the philosophy.

The Pythagoreans were well-known in antiquity for their vegetarianism, which they practised for religious, ethical and ascetic reasons, in particular the idea of metempsychosis - the transmigration of souls into the bodies of other animals.[5] "Pythagorean diet" was a common name for the abstention from eating meat and fish, until the coining of "vegetarian" in the nineteenth century.[6]

The Pythagorean code further restricted the diet of its followers, prohibiting the consumption or even touching of any sort of bean. It is probable that this is due to their belief in the soul, and the fact that beans obviously showed the potential for life. Some, for example Cicero,[7] say perhaps the flatulence beans cause, perhaps as protection from potential favism, perhaps because they resemble the genitalia,[8] but most likely for magico-religious reasons,[9] such as the belief that beans and human beings were created from the same material.[10] Most stories of Pythagoras' murder revolve around his aversion to beans. According to legend, enemies of the Pythagoreans set fire to Pythagoras' house, sending the elderly man running toward a bean field, where he halted, declaring that he would rather die than enter the field - whereupon his pursuers slit his throat.[11]

(and probably turned him into a pulled pythagoras sandwich.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorea ... etarianism

[skh]

DJ Drood: Is "vegetarian" worse than "pagan" where you live? In my world it's just another lifestyle choice, with no political or religious implications.

But I live in utopia anyway...

Back to topic: I am puzzled when I meet people who follow a path of "nature spirituality", but do not stop to think if or how their actions harm the natural world. What irks me most is cars, not planes or meat-eating, but let's keep that for another thread.

peace /|\
Sonja

[DJ Droood]

DJ Drood: Is "vegetarian" worse than "pagan" where you live? In my world it's just another lifestyle choice, with no political or religious implications.

"Vegetarian" has more social implications with family, friend and colleagues...which I suppose is grassroots politics....every food interaction, every outing, or ordering in pizza, has the potential to become a discussion about meat eating (and specifically why *you* don't eat meat ("Why not? All the meat I buy is organic and free range!") and food choices...sometimes tiresome when you just want to watch a movie with friends....Meat-eaters are in the majority, so usually it is up to the non-meat eater to either make a case for eating vegetarian, or shut up and hope there is a good greek salad on the menu. Plus there is often the underlying tension of them knowing their food choices are wrong (even if it is pushed very deep beneath a composting pile of rationalizing) and you are ethically superior with your eating...it makes people cranky.

Paganism isn't on the radar. My community is secular, and spiritual choices "usually" don't interfere with others, so nobody cares. (If going to church was as frequent or socially significant an event as ordering pizza, that would be a different story..."I want to go to Cathedral! No, a mosque!"....imagine the poor pagan trying to convince everyone to get naked in the woods...)

Back to topic: I am puzzled when I meet people who follow a path of "nature spirituality", but do not stop to think if or how their actions harm the natural world. What irks me most is cars, not planes or meat-eating, but let's keep that for another thread.

Fair enough, but I think a google will confirm that meat-eating is the single biggest cause of environmental destruction AND the easiest and least costly area of personal choice for a person to make a difference. (and even save money.)

[Susanne]

every food interaction, every outing, or ordering in pizza, has the potential to become a discussion about meat eating (and specifically why *you* don't eat meat ("Why not? All the meat I buy is organic and free range!") and food choices...sometimes tiresome when you just want to watch a movie with friends....Meat-eaters are in the majority, so usually it is up to the non-meat eater to either make a case for eating vegetarian

At times yes, but I have had many "conversations" with holier-than-thou vegetarians who smugly step all over the meat eaters in the group and leave garden dirt footprints all over our backs....
Anyway, I never eat meat on my pizza, plain cheese is fine for me! Which leads to the question...if raising beef cattle is harmful for the environment then what about dairy cows? Even the small farms pollute with methane, phosphate run off etc.....
Should all "environmentally responsible" folk be vegan?

[DJ Droood]

Should all "environmentally responsible" folk be vegan?

Yes. Or make the same effort to source their eggs and dairy ethically as the legions of ethical meat-eaters. But still, simply vegetarian is less harmful than eating factory farmed meat....if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

[Susanne]

if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

Good comparison.

[DJ Droood]

if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

Good comparison.

I am not a vegan, btw, and only ethically source my eggs when it is convenient and rarely my milk/cheese..although the dairy industry doesn't bother me as much from an animal welfare point of view, there are definite environmental impacts with industrialized dairy.

[Aylyn]

Back to topic: I am puzzled when I meet people who follow a path of "nature spirituality", but do not stop to think if or how their actions harm the natural world. What irks me most is cars, not planes or meat-eating, but let's keep that for another thread.

Hmmm, that just sonds like a "holier than though" attitude, and I doubt it was meant that way. Who says we do not stop to think (seeing as I am the Hummer Driver among you guys)? Sure I stop to think, but somehow I have to combine my nature spirituality with the harsh reality of living in the 21st century.

You said it so nicely in a previous post:

But it is not a solution for the 80 million inhabitants of this country. Or the 7 billion of this planet.

Neither is "Back to Nature" such a solution for the whole world. On a very private level, I have the choice between living in overcrowded London, where I do not need or can afford a car, but have no nature around me, or living in the Frozen wastelands (as my english friend described Scotland so nicely) and needing a car because the railroads have long been abandoned, and the buses are few and farr between. This is balanced by being able to buy locally sourced meat and having nature around me.

I try to use the car as little as possible, so yes, I am aware of the fact that it is hurting the environment, but OTOH I need to get to work. It is not all as easy as we would love it to be, and eating meat or not is part of that choice. What I would like to see is less a discussion in small areas and more a generalized plan of how we want to live in the future, and that should include things like farming methods and animal rights.

BTW, just to show the reality of the car discussion: On the way to work this morning I was listening to BBC, and they were talking about the state of the british railroads. It seems they had a massive increase in passengers, so they are now planning to raise prices to get people off the railroads because they are overcrowding. So what I would generally see as a step in the right direction is actively discouraged by the government, because they will have to invest massively into rail lines and rolling stock - better if people use their cars it seems. That, for me, is the kind of counterproductive thinking that makes it hard for me to abandon the car. Not that there is a railroad in my little town, it was scrapped about 1960.....

[Ade Sundog]

All beings tremble before violence.
All love life.
All fear death.
See yourself in others.
Then whom can you hurt?
What harm can you do?

- Buddha

[Claer]

if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

Good comparison.

I am not a vegan, btw, and only ethically source my eggs when it is convenient and rarely my milk/cheese..although the dairy industry doesn't bother me as much from an animal welfare point of view, there are definite environmental impacts with industrialized dairy.

Actually, most animal welfare scientists and organisations are of the view that there are some very very significant welfare issues resulting from intensive milk production. Just because many cows are out in grassy fields many think it is all OK. The reality is quite different. The huge yields expected from an average dairy cow result often in large metabolic imbalances. Simply, your average dairy cow cannot consume enough food to produce the yield and so "milks of her back" as it is called in the industry - uses her body's resources to produce the milk. The condition score of many cows, particularly after half way through there lactation is very poor. These animals also face many udder problems like mastitis and other teat infections. The weight of their udders also can cause lameness - a significant and noted welfare problem. The natural lifespan of a cow is 15 to 20 yr (I know of one rare breed cow still being milked and she is a fit and healthy 22yrs). Cows in your average dairy herd have a lifespan of just 4yrs. Due to some of the reasons given above, severe inbreeding depression (very few bulls are used - mainly by AI - so most dairy herds are very genetically alike) and difficulties in getting high yielding cattle to conceive these days - most are culled because they do not get pregnant quickly enough after calving to return to milking to achieve maximium lactating days.

If we are concerned where our food comes from and animal welfare, then I think we we should be concerned about the welfare issues in the dairy industry. These problems are as acute as battery cages for hens, lameness in broilers etc. Yet they remain "hidden" by the public view of cows munching lovely green grass.

I am fortunate enough to know of sources of ethically produced milk and cheese from cows and goats (UK rare and native breeds) from herds with very high welfare standards. These native and rare breeds do not produce the huge yields of modern black and white dairy cows, and so do not suffer many of the welfare problems associated with that. It isn't always easy to locate these products, but with a bit of research it can be done.

(from a rare breed chicken keeping veggie)

[DJ Droood]

If we are concerned where our food comes from and animal welfare, then I think we we should be concerned about the welfare issues in the dairy industry. These problems are as acute as battery cages for hens, lameness in broilers etc. Yet they remain "hidden" by the public view of cows munching lovely green grass.

I agree totally...just laziness on my part not to educate myself more or make more of an effort to buy ethically sourced dairy, which I know exists...even though cruelty-free milk is about 3x the price of "regular" milk...eggs seem easier to find, and the price difference is not as great....$2.99 a dozen for torture eggs, compared to about $4.99 a dozen for so- called "free range" eggs, although it is also too easy to become complacent about more or less useless terms like "free range", "natural" or "organic" which are often little more than salves to make us feel better.

My dad was a dairy inspector, and I remember travelling with him as a kid to all the farms in the summer ("don't drink the milk at the Henderson's if they offer you some!"), when it was still cows munching on grass, but I'm sure the industry has changed dramatically since then.

There is an "urban chicken" movement afoot (aclaw?) in my city, and as soon as the bylaws change, I want to set up a coop in my backyard.

[Claer]

There is an "urban chicken" movement afoot (aclaw?) in my city, and as soon as the bylaws change, I want to set up a coop in my backyard.

I admit I am totally biased here - but would certain urge you to consider keeping your own chickens if you possibly can devote the time, care and resources to it. I would also urge people to find out about which breeds are native to their area (country) and if at all possible support your local native rare breeds. They may not lay as many eggs in their first year as hybrid birds - but they are usually longer lived - and lay all those lovely eggs over time rather than in 1-3 yrs and wearing the poor birds out.
Once you have had an egg from one of your own hens - no other egg is quite as good! Just be warned chicken are a bit addictive. I started out with 3 hens and now have 18 breeding birds, 5 older ladies, 2 cockerels and a number of quail.
I'll stop the chicken talk now before I bore everyone rigid - sorry for diversion peeps.

[DJ Droood]

I'll stop the chicken talk now before I bore everyone rigid - sorry for diversion peeps.

Not at all...I've always had a wierd facination with poultry...when I was a kid..like 12....a couple of times I made an incubator out of a styrofoam cooler and a light bulb and a dish of water, and got fertilized eggs from a a farmer and hatched my own chicks...the poor little things died, of course....and later, as a young adult going through a hippie phase, I lived in the woods and bought chicken and duck chicks and raised them to adulthood, but in the course of two nights, a fisher (nasty little beasts) killed them all....ripped their heads off and drank the blood and left their headless bodies...so I haven't had much luck, but i want to try again.

[CedarMist]

if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

I would change DJ Droood's analogy of vegetarianism to taking a bus and then planting a tree. Because having a few cows who live a long time contributing their manure to farms really up the efficiency of the soil which grows our yummy vegetables. I am all for ethically sourced animal by-products. Also, when those cows get OLD they can be eaten by animals that actually need meat= dogs, cats, and wild animals in rehab.

My two cents. ; )

[DJ Droood]

if meat-eating is driving a Hummer, vegetarianism is taking the bus and veganism is walking or riding a bike.

I would change DJ Droood's analogy of vegetarianism to taking a bus and then planting a tree. Because having a few cows who live a long time contributing their manure to farms really up the efficiency of the soil which grows our yummy vegetables. I am all for ethically sourced animal by-products. Also, when those cows get OLD they can be eaten by animals that actually need meat= dogs, cats, and wild animals in rehab.

My two cents. ; )

indeed...as has been said, it is all a matter of scale...things in balance work in balance....the decadent consumption of meat at every meal, yet another self-indulgent pollution of the OIl Age, has messed everything up...instead of "pot roast Sunday", it is now torture pig every morning for breakfast, drift net dolphin sandwiches for lunch and concentration camp chicken stir-fry for dinner, seven days a week.

[Astrid]

instead of "pot roast Sunday", it is now torture pig every morning for breakfast, drift net dolphin sandwiches for lunch and concentration camp chicken stir-fry for dinner, seven days a week.

I just wanted to say i always enjoy the way you express yourself, it so... colorful

[DJ Droood]

I just wanted to say i always enjoy the way you express yourself, it so... colorful

thanks!...it is the lack of meat antibiotics in my system...they kill off healthy magniloquence bacteria in the human brain.

[Serpentia]

You know, I just realized what's wrong with this world.. or maybe it's right, actually, but it sure feels wrong to me... I have to fight my CHILDREN about buying organic food or eating vegetarian. is this the revolution of old age? When did this change, since when do old folks care more than the young crowd?

I see a pattern developing here that scares me...

Serpentia
the not-so-easily-scared-snake

[DJ Droood]

You know, I just realized what's wrong with this world.. or maybe it's right, actually, but it sure feels wrong to me... I have to fight my CHILDREN about buying organic food or eating vegetarian. is this the revolution of old age? When did this change, since when do old folks care more than the young crowd?

I see a pattern developing here that scares me...

My children disdain vegetarianism, leave the lights on, ignore the compost and simply snarl "it's your fault" if global warming is mentioned. They are social anarchists and economic fascists. Yet recently when the government telecommunication regulator threatened to end limitless bandwitdth internet accounts, they took to Facebook and the streets like they were being sent to Vietnam. and had the gov't back down within days.

[Astrid]

maybe it depends on the upbringing? or age?

I once met a vegan lady me who told me how she could not bring her 5 year old to a supermarket because the child would scream and throw a tantrum if she would not buy a package of fresh spinache leaves for the child to snack on but ofcourse he had been vegan raised since birth