Possible ancient Druid Cave writing in America

[Queen_Blossoms]

This seems to be the best place to enter my question. Please forgive ahead of time if I'm wrong.

I remember reading somewhere that there is a possibility that some ancient cave art found in the environs of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado may have made by ancient Druids (a very few obviously and probably only one) who travelled this way. I have a research paper in Historical Antiquities that I'd love to explore this possibilty, however, for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this. Also, I live in Colorado so if there's an inkling of it and I can get to it, I'd love to make a physical journey.

Hoping there's an expert or two in the Celtic Studies house!!!

Thanks - Debra
(aka Queen_Blossoms and just working on my final Ovate journies)

[Art]

The only speculative association with early Europeans visiting this continent deal with the east coast and/or the Mississippi watershed to include the Alabama river and Mobile bay. The notion of something in the rockies doesn't ring a bell at all. If however there was such a speculation, it would refer to a particular people such as the Welsh, Irish, Gauls, etc rather than a "druid" inscription. If you can find some sort of reference we can explore it farther.

[AndyN]

Donald Cyr who edited Stonehenge Viewpoint for many years published "Exploring Rock Art" in 1989. It includes several chapters about rock art in Colorado and speculates that a lot of it is ogham script. The same book includes supposed ogham carving from elsewhere in the US. I have to say I'm not really convinced, but there is certainly food for thought in this book.

If you can find a copy it might help you track down the carvings. Locations in Colorado that are mentioned include - Sun Temple mentioned by McGlone and Leonard in "Ancient Celtic America, 1986 - Hidden Spring- Crack Cave - Little Hidden Cave, Hayes Canyon - Anubis Caves.

[DJ Droood]

There is some stuff on google about the Crack Cave and Anubis Cave in Colorado..I just spent a couple of minutes on it..interesting stuff, although more recent archaeologists seem to dismiss the theory that Europeans were responsible for the markings...this idea pops up from time to time at other archaeological locations in North America, with the suggestion that latent racism might be at play in the interpretations...no Native culture could *possibly* have produced that...must have been a wayward Europeans....

[Lily]

The problem with these finds is usually that they do not transcribe into anything that looks like a gaelic text, and THEN you'd have to demonstrate how the gaelic-speaking folks got there.

They could be other inscriptions or simply knife marks but you probably won't find anything convincing.

Here's another case that has been discussed before (probably fell victim to autoprune)

http://cwva.org/ogam_rebutal/wirtz.html
http://cwva.org/wwvrunes/wwvrunes_3.html

[Queen_Blossoms]

...must have been a wayward Europeans....

LOL chuckle chuckle

Thanks so much for the reference. I'll check it out.

[Queen_Blossoms]

The problem with these finds is usually that they do not transcribe into anything that looks like a gaelic text, and THEN you'd have to demonstrate how the gaelic-speaking folks got there.

They could be other inscriptions or simply knife marks but you probably won't find anything convincing.

Here's another case that has been discussed before (probably fell victim to autoprune)

http://cwva.org/ogam_rebutal/wirtz.html
http://cwva.org/wwvrunes/wwvrunes_3.html

I appreciate the reference, Lily. It's a long shot, I know, but if ancient clues could all be interpreted with certainty, where would the mystery be? Again, thanks.

[Queen_Blossoms]

Donald Cyr who edited Stonehenge Viewpoint for many years published "Exploring Rock Art" in 1989. It includes several chapters about rock art in Colorado and speculates that a lot of it is ogham script. The same book includes supposed ogham carving from elsewhere in the US. I have to say I'm not really convinced, but there is certainly food for thought in this book.

If you can find a copy it might help you track down the carvings. Locations in Colorado that are mentioned include - Sun Temple mentioned by McGlone and Leonard in "Ancient Celtic America, 1986 - Hidden Spring- Crack Cave - Little Hidden Cave, Hayes Canyon - Anubis Caves.

Superb! I'll try and find the book. You are a wealth of knowledge. Now it appears I need to get some old clothes on, a headlamp and flashlight and go crawling around in some caves! Who ever said we neo-Druids are wimps. Not me.

[Queen_Blossoms]

If you can find some sort of reference we can explore it farther.

I actually now remembered first reading about it in the Bardic gwersi but now can't find it when going back through. It's all speculation, anyway.

We know that Europeans traveled to this continent and some succeeded getting further inland but it's all hypothesis without proof, right? So much of Druidic religious practices and First American practices are similar but to prove it, impossible. Still, like dropping the word "Atlantis" in the middle of a group of anthropologists , it'll be FUN to casually and briefly hypothesize in a history report a possible ancient Druidic or Gallic traveler into the wilds of North America.

We'll see.

[Queen_Blossoms]

There is some stuff on google about the Crack Cave and Anubis Cave in Colorado..I just spent a couple of minutes on it..interesting stuff, although more recent archaeologists seem to dismiss the theory that Europeans were responsible for the markings.......

You are so right - extremely interesting and inspirational. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GACRxUIp39s is a wonderful video as well as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsNPLdtJLs. The first is of the Anubis Cave sight which is on private property; however, they let this Denver production get in there. A blessing to be sure. The second is the Crack Cave in the San Isabel Forest in Colorado and is documented by a trio of cowboys / ranchers. Just normal, common sense folks it seems to me. I love it.

So, what do we really know? Do we really know only what is evidenced and connected to some definite point in time? How Cartasian in belief, really. Scholars should continue to dismiss this stuff at their own peril, I think. Peril is probably too harsh a word but nothing else comes up.

[DaRC]

THEN you'd have to demonstrate how the gaelic-speaking folks got there.

Not hard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Severin http://www.timseverin.net/biography.html
Tim Severin's been there, done that when he re-created the voyage of St. Brendan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

The tricky bit is proving that lines cut in stone translate to Gaelic.

[Heddwen]

Perhaps this may be of interest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

[Huathe]

Perhaps this may be of interest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

Very interesting, Heddwen.

[DaRC]

Interesting that for Madoc they mentioned the Bull Hide boats - the replica boat Tim Severin built was a Currach made of leather.
They found, during icy weather, that using leather was an advantage. The currach was a large sea going coracle.
More about modern Currach's is here : http://www.dinglecurrach.com/full-size-currachs.html
and about ancient boats here : http://www.dark-age-boats.co.uk/britishromanboats.php

SO maybe both Gaelic and Brythonic investigation would be needed.

[Dendrias]

May I ask something inbetween?
The Americas have been a projection screen for almost everything: dreams, visions, fear and hope. When I noticed, next to the video about Celts in America, a video about ancient Arabs in America, I once again wondered, why there is another strange trait: to want to have had people from the old world in America.
Wikipedia, in the article about Madoc, tells us of at least two general motivations to claim so:

and he thought the advanced architecture of Mandan villages must have been learned from Europeans

The Madoc legend attained its greatest prominence during the Elizabethan era, when Welsh and English writers used it bolster British claims in the New World versus those of Spain.

As, obviously, as well in here, "European heritage" is very important to some Americans, interest in having had ancestors living in America can be vital. How comes?

That's meant to be apart from the scientific question. If there is sound evidence of European, Arabian or Nephite presence, fine. But where does the need come from?

[DJ Droood]

That's meant to be apart from the scientific question. If there is sound evidence of European, Arabian or Nephite presence, fine. But where does the need come from?

For North Americans of European descent, there is an underlying knowledge that they live on land "stolen" from the Native inhabitants by their ancestors by force, in the not unimaginable historical past. This causes a generalized, if largely unconscious guilt...I bet the German language has the perfect word for this...it is soothing to think Europeans may have been here...maybe from millennia ago (Kennewick Man) or later became an integrated part of the Native population through unrecorded Irish or Basque or Viking settlers...and perhaps worked with and loved our Native brothers and sisters, rather than just blast them with blunderbusses and enslave them and kill them with disease.

[Dendrias]

Hell, yea, german has a hundred words for guilt, varying from unconscious to conscious, unimaginable to unheard of, assorted by the time when harm was done (ranging from 500 BC to 1996 AD - new words are to be found!), from private to public to genetic guilt. And we've got ten words for guilds, as well.

Do You think so? You're the expert, and as i asked i will believe You. But that's nothing to do with heritage, has it?
The - i fear to say it - german wikipedia mentions DNS evidence from 2006 that proved no Welsh DNS in the Mandan, but doesn't give a source. Do You know anything about that.

[DJ Droood]

Do You think so? You're the expert, and as i asked i will believe You. But that's nothing to do with heritage, has it?

Yes...constant low-level guilt and/or rationalizing...I have fairly sound documentation that my ancestors helped wipe out the Pequots in Connecticut...but that was quite some time ago, wasn't it?.....anyway, what I'm referring to is more about "ownership" than genetics....if it can be proven that Europeans were here a thousand or 5 thousand years ago, it lessens the whole "First People's" claim, and perhaps some of the guilt burden.

The - i fear to say it - german wikipedia mentions DNS evidence from 2006 that proved no Welsh DNS in the Mandan, but doesn't give a source. Do You know anything about that.

Nope...had to google "Mandan".

[Dendrias]

Guilt burden can be lessened? Ask a reasonable german about it and the answer would be quite clear. And that was the first thing after Your post i didn't mean ironically.

i found this interesting site, which i, of course, haven't read through, with this remark:

It is my hope that the history of the Mandan people can be respected for what it is, I don’t imagine they appreciate their oral history being relegated to second class by a European myth. There have been enough prejudicial theories against Native history: from the foreign builders of Cahokia to Egyptian influence in Maya writing.

But thanks for Your thoughts.

[DaRC]

Whilst i find it interesting to speculate whether people before Leif Ericksson had travelled to the America's I think it is fraught with political trouble.

Perhaps the lesson of the Vinlanders is one to remember - it was the Inuit who survived on that land, the Norse wouldn't adapt to their surroundings when the weather changed. There is no evidence of a European culture surviving in mainland America before Columbus AFAIK. It maybe that individuals arrived there but no more than that, I find the speculation interesting because it refutes our modern arrogance that Northern European tribes were barbarians who couldn't travel far and wide. I've read historians who write that the Celts weren't great sea travellers which, through my Cornish links, never did ring true.