The Atheist Druid

[treegod]

Exactly. The fact is they are to be included in scientific scrutiny if science is to be as objective as it can be not shunned because the said "old guard" distrust "new ideas". To be more specific there was a dominant Victorian idea that all things worth discovering had been discovered. New ideas weren't given the time of day (and I'm sure in some cases they still aren't) until a new generation of scientists could come in without biases of the "old guard".

Or an individual or cabal of scientists that have staked all of their careers, livelihoods, funds, mortgages, reputations etc etc on working for years or decades on a certain theory or set of theories may feel compelled to ignore and/or sabotage any new ideas that threatens them with poverty, dim future prospects, social ostracisation etc. Or cover up any of their own findings that could do the same.

[Mountainheart]

Perhaps when people "believe" in something that has been studied and tested...that has all the benchmarks of being "real"...it takes on the outward appearance (especially if you are steeped in "faith") of religious doctrine...if you like to dress up in pirate clothes, then you actually meet a pirate, you might mistakenly think the person is dressed up like a pirate, too.

It is certainly true that Bad Science can become doctrinal. For example Homeopathy, Chiropractic or the Nutritionism of frauds such as Gillian McKeith.

The reason for this is that they have actually presented no decent evidence in the first place and yet regard their case as proven. Hence there is no possibility of falsification.

One hallmark of such doctrines is that they tend to respond to challenges to their theories by reaching for the courts rather than the test-tube.

Recent research into placebos shows how powerful 'belief' can be, though. Just the belief that something can heal you seems to sometimes be enough for healing to take place. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/mar/06/half-german-doctors-prescribe-placebos for a piece on this. So things like homeopathy may sometime be effective *simply* because of the placebo effect.

[treegod]

So a doctor gives me some placebos. Does that mean I have to pay him/her for what is already within my power to do?
I'm sure the medical industry would do quite well charging for placebos.

[cursuswalker]

Recent research into placebos shows how powerful 'belief' can be, though. Just the belief that something can heal you seems to sometimes be enough for healing to take place. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/mar/06/half-german-doctors-prescribe-placebos for a piece on this. So things like homeopathy may sometime be effective *simply* because of the placebo effect.

Yes, but one trick the Alternative Health industry tries to pull is to claim credit for this effect. The whole point is that you cannot credit any treatment with the placebo effect.

[cursuswalker]

So a doctor gives me some placebos. Does that mean I have to pay him/her for what is already within my power to do?
I'm sure the medical industry would do quite well charging for placebos.

Well the whole point is that if you are given a placebo, as part of a trial, that means they are trying to find out if the real treatment is effective. So you are no more cheated than if you get the actual medicine.

However these days the ethics of trials mean that you are more likely to get an old established medicine rather than an actual placebo, as they are trying to discover if the new treatment is any better.

[treegod]

Well the whole point is that if you are given a placebo, as part of a trial, that means they are trying to find out if the real treatment is effective. So you are no more cheated than if you get the actual medicine.

I know. I didn't make it explicit I was thinking about AFTER the trials, the sort of trade that could done with them. Unscrupulous pharmacy companies or misguided alternative "medics" could and do grab hold of this sort of thing.

[DJ Droood]

So a doctor gives me some placebos. Does that mean I have to pay him/her for what is already within my power to do?

Give her counterfeit bills.

[cursuswalker]

Well the whole point is that if you are given a placebo, as part of a trial, that means they are trying to find out if the real treatment is effective. So you are no more cheated than if you get the actual medicine.

I know. I didn't make it explicit I was thinking about AFTER the trials, the sort of trade that could done with them. Unscrupulous pharmacy companies or misguided alternative "medics" could and do grab hold of this sort of thing.

That would be no more corrupt than the alternative medicine industry

[treegod]

@ DJ Droood, LOL

Well the whole point is that if you are given a placebo, as part of a trial, that means they are trying to find out if the real treatment is effective. So you are no more cheated than if you get the actual medicine.

I know. I didn't make it explicit I was thinking about AFTER the trials, the sort of trade that could done with them. Unscrupulous pharmacy companies or misguided alternative "medics" could and do grab hold of this sort of thing.

That would be no more corrupt than the alternative medicine industry

I did think that as I published it. Unscrupulous/misguided on both would have been more accurate. To be unscrupulous is to be misguided and being misguided lacks some scruples.

[wolf560]

So a doctor gives me some placebos. Does that mean I have to pay him/her for what is already within my power to do?

There is a corollary to this as well....
Take the person being "cured with placebos" and consider the fact that they did not have to go to the doctor in the first place.
If they had the power to "heal themselves" then it was their fault that the Doctor and Pharmacy spent the time and trouble to "fix them".

If they had placed a little more effort in "healing themselves" then they could have saved the money for both the doctors visit as well as the pharmacy.

Everyone has to charge for time, product dispensed, and services rendered.... so exactly whose fault is it really?
Is there the possibility of there being too many people that blow it out of proportion... or even too many hypochondriacs?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/23/ill-illusions-ailments-may-be-imaginary-but/

I have a sister who *pops* an Ibuprofen and pronounces to the world that the "headache is gone" right then and there.
Perhaps not a placebo effect but certainly not a fat-acting NSAID either....

[Bartholomew]

I work in the "alternative" health field although I prefer "complementary" we work within guidelines and alongside orthodox medicine. I can agree with the placebo effect to a certain extent. The undivided attention of another human being, a listening ear, warmth, touch, preconceived ideas can go a long way to helping someone heal. However all of these are lost on animals who respond very well to healing. I have worked with animals with fresh wounds, hands hovering above such, no touch involved, and the animals have been relaxed and seem to enjoy the session, as though they know you are trying to help them.
I have also worked with autistic children who cannot communicate verbally or through the written word, therefore they have no preconcieved ideas and they seem to respond exceptionally well to complementary therapies. How would you explain that?

[wolf560]

There is a lot to be said on both sides of the "placebo affect" upon creatures both intelligent and not.
I am a retired soldier that has had to perform battlefield triage on injuries sustained.

I am instructor certified in combat life-saving and my favorite phrase was
"... talk slowly, calmly, and evenly..."
"... work as fast as you can in that golden hour, because it will not come again..."
"...even if they do not understand what you are doing, they should come to see that you are there to help and not to hurt..."

I believe the same thing applies to anyone or any creature you help.
They do not have to understand a word you say or even have the adult mental capacity to understand it.
They will come to know very quickly whether or not you are there to help them out or there to hurt them.

I have a question for you....
How many children and/or animals did not understand what was happening and would not allow you to help them because (probably) they thought you might hurt them?

[DJ Droood]

How would you explain that?

How is that "retiring from the board" thing working out for you?

[Bartholomew]

Well Mark, I was given a hysterical cat released from a cage in a small room to heal because it had stopped eating. Beforehand the owner failed to tell me that that cat usually ripped into strange people with all claws bared. When I went in the room, it panicked at first, but I laid my hands on it's back. We were both lying on the floor, I did not speak and it became calm. She told me it slept for the whole day the next day and then continued to eat normally thereafter.
I do not speak during treatments, I speak beforehand to explain,obviously not with animals. I always speak to children and adults beforehand and explain what I am about to do.
My own elderly dog had had an operation for tumours on her stomach and was returned to me with an 8 inch stitched up wound on her abdomen. We sat, in silence one night and I endeavoured to channel healing for her at which point she rolled onto her back and exposed her stomach to me. Deeply relaxed and making a strange sound of contentment. My dog that I have now makes the same noise when I do healing for him, and he becomes all floppy and relaxed.
Obviously DJ, you me and Nico have karmic ties that keep me chained to Druid message boards and I have to put up with all kinds of indignities until that debt is repaid. Hence my prescence.

[DJ Droood]

Obviously DJ, you me and Nico have karmic ties that keep me chained to Druid message boards and I have to put up with all kinds of indignities until that debt is repaid. Hence my prescence.

obviously.

[Bartholomew]

Peace and blessings DJ xx

[DJ Droood]

Sláinte

[wolf560]

I do not speak during treatments, I speak beforehand to explain,obviously not with animals. I always speak to children and adults beforehand and explain what I am about to do.

I have more experience working with injured humans, and usually not in the calmest of situations (Iraq and Afghanistan).
I taught my soldiers to speak slowly and deeply so that no matter what the injured could hear and focus on the calm voice.

I was partially blinded and deafened in January 2002 by an open breach explosion that nearly killed my gunner and I.
I can still remember hearing the deep rumble of CSM Bill Virrill the first responder "It's gonna be all right soldier, listen to my voice and just hang on".

We did have some situations with animals (working dogs and some "family pets" caught in the wrong place)

[Bartholomew]

Thanks for sharing Mark, you have lived through a lot of traumatic life experiences. Humans are just complex and nobody knows how they will react when they are faced with pain,suffering and fear.

[Mountainheart]

Humans are just complex and nobody knows how they will react when they are faced with pain,suffering and fear.

That's true. I train regularly in Mountain Rescue scenarios but you just can't predict how people will respond to a real situation. I've seen tough, self confident people completely fall apart; and shy timid people become commanding and assertive when faced with real rescues.

David