Heathenry/Druidry "Confliction"

[Motholfr]

Hey,

I will try to keep this as to the point as I can. I am very connected with my ancestry because I personally believe that I should follow a path that is of my own blood. That being said I am Native American, Irish and Scandinavian; I have studied many years with Native American tribes and have gain a respect for the beliefs but could not get it to click with my personal beliefs and opinions on "religious" matters. I ended up finding my way (Eventually) to Druidry and I had a giant light bulb turn on, it was completely 100% in line with my personal beliefs. So I studied and considered myself to have found my path... But I have had problems with Druidry in general.

I find it hard to call myself a Druid, due to the fact that pretty much everything has been lost it kind of falls into the category of new age/reconstruction. But if Druidry was taught verbally and all was for the most part lost it's kind of hard to reconstruct it. The other thing is the Wiccan/Witch like parts of casting spells... I cannot do this, it just doesn't work. I 100% believe in the idea of using energy to connect or perform certain techniques but I see many Druids who are conjuring and performing ceremonies with the intent of creating or doing something that doesn't seem to do anything at all. Gods/Goddesses seems to be a hard one for me to connect with, I've only got a good connection with Herne but even there I am a vegetarian and view him more as balance than a hunter. But being a polytheistic belief I find it a bit more difficult because I fail to connect with any of the other (Celtic) deities. I really don't feel connections with Goddesses and find most of Paganism to be a bit more focused on the feminine when I believe it should be balanced (Says me who can't connect with the female goddesses).

So I found myself moving on to Heathenry/Asatru/Odinism (Whatever you would like to call it), and found another piece that seemed to fit me. It seems more tangible to me, I've always had deep connections with Runes. The Gods are for a lack of a better word... Manly. They are Gods I can easily identify with and feel a connection to and magic is pretty much non-existent yet I am torn between the two a bit. I am naturally a very loyal person and have found a lot in Druidry but because of the disconnections I have in it I went looking elsewhere and there was only 1 door left unexplored.

I am curious if any other Druid has found them self in this position or something similar and where you ended up. I don't think the two really mix very well, and I don't tend to like the thought of being eclectic. Any help or opinions are much appreciated.

Motholfr

[katie bridgewater]

Ancestry is not a fixed thing - it all depends on which branch you take and how far back you go. Go far enough back and we are all from a small area of the Rift Valley, and some of our human culture was already formed by then.
I found 'The Ancestor''s Tale' by Richard Dawkins (regardless of his stance on religion) utterly inspiring and deeply spiritually helpful in understanding who I am, where I came from and how I fit in with everyone (human and other-than-human). It truly puts the lineage in perspective.

Besides, IMO Druidry is not about who you are, it is about the land you are part of.

[Motholfr]

Ancestry is not a fixed thing - it all depends on which branch you take and how far back you go. Go far enough back and we are all from a small area of the Rift Valley, and some of our human culture was already formed by then.
I found 'The Ancestor''s Tale' by Richard Dawkins (regardless of his stance on religion) utterly inspiring and deeply spiritually helpful in understanding who I am, where I came from and how I fit in with everyone (human and other-than-human). It truly puts the lineage in perspective.

Besides, IMO Druidry is not about who you are, it is about the land you are part of.

Ancestry to me is important in connecting with where my family comes from and honoring those lines while fitting it into my personal beliefs and finding "something deeper". The idea's I've had since I could remember on life, the afterlife and that in between matched Druidry almost 100% so for me Druidry was (Or is) me because those beliefs were apart of me even before I stumbled into Druidry. But while those idea's matched I felt like too much was not connecting at the same time.

[Blind Owl]

Speaking as a curious outsider, reading through the forum it is very hard to find a unified way of thinking or outlook here which gives the impression that the OBOD indeed offers many things to wide range of people and fulfils its word of offering a course which is of value to people regardless of path, personal or spiritual bias.

I have met many unconflicted Buddhist-Christians, who say Buddhist is my philosophy and Christianity my religion. So as far as that goes, I do not see a conflict as such (There is even an ‘Atheist Druid’ thread here ). Could you explain more as to where you see the conflict to be?

My personal opinion is that we must all find our own way along the path and while we may stumble upon or seek out guides and teachers, the ultimate decision in direction is always between you and your small Inner voice. Use what resonates in your bones and put aside what doesn’t, you can always come back later (circles and spirals)- just be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Corwen]

That's good advice from Blind Owl (was going to abbreviate that to BO but seemed somehow wrong... ).

As Katie said, Druidry is about the Land at least as much as its about you (IMHO it isn't about 'you' at all, despite the New Age imperative that everything should be about 'you'). Your ancestors are part of the land now.

These ancestors, anyway, are so recent, go a little deeper and a little further back if you feel they are at conflict with each other. We are all homo sapiens at the end of the day. At the end of the epoc we are all simply atoms...

One of the good things about Druidry is that whilst it may have a Celtic veneer, it is a springboard, not a straightjacket.

[Motholfr]

Speaking as a curious outsider, reading through the forum it is very hard to find a unified way of thinking or outlook here which gives the impression that the OBOD indeed offers many things to wide range of people and fulfils its word of offering a course which is of value to people regardless of path, personal or spiritual bias.

I have met many unconflicted Buddhist-Christians, who say Buddhist is my philosophy and Christianity my religion. So as far as that goes, I do not see a conflict as such (There is even an ‘Atheist Druid’ thread here ). Could you explain more as to where you see the conflict to be?

My personal opinion is that we must all find our own way along the path and while we may stumble upon or seek out guides and teachers, the ultimate decision in direction is always between you and your small Inner voice. Use what resonates in your bones and put aside what doesn’t, you can always come back later (circles and spirals)- just be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I see what you mean with the combination of beliefs/religions but this is kind of where my confliction lays.

I get Druidry and how it works and it makes sense to me, it fits my belief with the "structure of life" however the Celtic deity pantheon really doesn't fit me. The Heathen pantheon however does fit me more, but the idea of the afterlife in Heathenry doesn't tend to fit from what I have understood and believe of Druidry. I find the idea of going to a alternate plain that is similar to our own or some mystical "heaven" a bit far fetched (No offense to anyone). So there is a conflict I have with Heathenry.

I see Druidry as my more peaceful side where Heathenry is more my aggressive side. But the two mixing just doesn't seem to work very well.

[Motholfr]

That's good advice from Blind Owl (was going to abbreviate that to BO but seemed somehow wrong... ).

As Katie said, Druidry is about the Land at least as much as its about you (IMHO it isn't about 'you' at all, despite the New Age imperative that everything should be about 'you'). Your ancestors are part of the land now.

These ancestors, anyway, are so recent, go a little deeper and a little further back if you feel they are at conflict with each other. We are all homo sapiens at the end of the day. At the end of the epoc we are all simply atoms...

One of the good things about Druidry is that whilst it may have a Celtic veneer, it is a springboard, not a straightjacket.

That is a very valid point about everything being the same thing deep down. However the human element is not the same in the traditions. I am very very loyal to my ancestory and hold the traditions to each blood line very dear to me. In exploring these areas of traditions, way of life I find a lot of myself in them.

Motholfr

[wolf560]

Speaking as a curious outsider...My personal opinion is that we must all find our own way along the path and while we may stumble upon or seek out guides and teachers...

I see Druidry as my more peaceful side where Heathenry is more my aggressive side. But the two mixing just doesn't seem to work very well.

I work with a great number of Asatru friends and am good friends with a group of them. Although I am Druidic following a (somewhat) Celtic Path we have not had any problems or issues, especially in the 'peaceful' versus 'aggressive' sides.

My Ancestral Path is Celtic and Meso-American and what I find most agreeable is to remember the things that my Ancestors did. My single greatest discoveries are when I find out more stories about my Ancestors (the further back the better). Some of those 'Ancestors' are direct ones while others are more 'tribal' (such as learning of a hero of our Scottish Clan back in the 11th century who is at best an indirect family relation).

I find both Druidry, Heathenry, and Paganry to be just as "peaceful" and just as "aggressive".
It is a misrepresentation of all of them to say that you have to be peaceful in order to belong to one or more of these groups.

[Ice]

Mystical heaven? Some would say that we are living in it right here and right now, well the Buddhists would. Surely any personal confliction would come from our own unresolved issues with our selves. Is there a need to choose a path, to make a firm decision? or, is it just better to live in the moment, moving along the wheel of the year with the ebb and flow of life?
Here I think we need to think more widely, to open our minds to the possibilities. Our nature/nurture issues that have moulded us to become the people that we are, human beings in all our glory and our flaws. The (religious?) upbringing that shaped our morals, ethics and choices, that causes us to view life through this framework. All big questions in the grand scheme of things...
Will miss the banter

Cheers

[katie bridgewater]

I get Druidry and how it works and it makes sense to me, it fits my belief with the "structure of life" however the Celtic deity pantheon really doesn't fit me. The Heathen pantheon however does fit me more, but the idea of the afterlife in Heathenry doesn't tend to fit from what I have understood and believe of Druidry. I find the idea of going to a alternate plain that is similar to our own or some mystical "heaven" a bit far fetched (No offense to anyone). So there is a conflict I have with Heathenry.

I see Druidry as my more peaceful side where Heathenry is more my aggressive side. But the two mixing just doesn't seem to work very well.

It's important to remember, Motholfr, that both modern Heathenry and modern Druidry are interpretations of things through modern eyes and experiences. We know relatively little about our druid ancestors from the bronze age / early iron age and their belief systems are very obscure. We know more about Viking religious practice because Scandinavia converted to Christianity late and had trade links all over the world. It is known that Vikings used Finns as their court magicians and would have come across their non-Indo-European pantheon. But we are not ancient Celts, or Vikings and so anything we adopt is a conscious choice.

To this end, there are all kinds of groups, organisations and individuals doing their own thing. Some have a pantheon, and some don't. No-one is any more 'right' or 'wrong'. My own personal pantheon includes Santiago de Compostela (a Catholic saint whose pilgrimage I have made), Ukko (Finno-Ugric sky god) and Epona (Romano-British goddess) and Ceridwen (Celtic story character) because those are figures meaningful and important to me, not because they are part of any 'set' pantheon. I don't really 'believe' in deities. I just like to be polite to them, and have had more opportunity to do so with some than others. IMO that is what makes a pantheon.

You can look for differences and divisions, but if you draw lines you then have to place yourself on one side or the other, or forever be torn. Or you can look for a set of practices, allegiances that actually make sense to you, and which reflect the fact that we are all of the same blood. You don't have to worship the same Gods forever, unless you promise them that you will, and you don't have to adhere to a list prescribed by someone else. Our ancestors engaged different Gods for different purposes, and so must we, but our purposes are bound to be different, because our lives are.

[skh]

(I don't want to distract from the discussion, but I'd like to point out this thread about the Germanic Path:

viewtopic.php?f=324&t=7676

It might be of interest.

peace /|\
Sonja)

[Ice]

Yes well the link between the Scandinavian Finns and Christianity has been long known. Christianity spread from the Southern to the Northern hemisphere thoroughly through Europe. Of course,( and to agree with the skeptics ) there are huge hypocrisies and issues with the church....I'd question how much is 'true' christianity, but there you go....and of course the propaganda spread by the witch trials wouldn't stand in todays court, there'd be a HUGE discrimination cases, I'm sure. The legal implications of (I believe the correct term is) 'inciting religious hatred' and bullying would be massive, but I've already discussed this earlier on in the week.
Anyway, I'm sticking to good old fashioned healthy living, eating a healthy diet, getting fresh air and pulling up my very long socks on that one. End of.

[cursuswalker]

Ancestry is not a fixed thing - it all depends on which branch you take and how far back you go. Go far enough back and we are all from a small area of the Rift Valley, and some of our human culture was already formed by then.
I found 'The Ancestor''s Tale' by Richard Dawkins (regardless of his stance on religion) utterly inspiring and deeply spiritually helpful in understanding who I am, where I came from and how I fit in with everyone (human and other-than-human). It truly puts the lineage in perspective.

Besides, IMO Druidry is not about who you are, it is about the land you are part of.

The Ancestors Tale, for me, is a deeply spiritual book. It lead me to redefine my "race" and allowed me to retain my belief in the interconnectedness of all life, which is a fact.

[illion]

Dear, Motholfr

Oh, I do know very much where you are coming from. I feel exactly the same as you at times, but I think I have settled myself somewhere in between at the moment. I really think that I am something inbetween. I've pondered alot upon why I didn't just feel drawn to the asatru in the first place. Why I had to go all the way through Druidry to find my old Gods and Godesses. I've been reading, pondering, meditating and doing a lot of research for myself. And I think I have landed on some kind of a platform... maybe...

I was raised in an atheist family with a slight of norwegian folklorist belief and some kind of christian traditions that wasn't really thought through. I was lonely in my childhood, so I connected very closely to the land and to nature. As I grew older, I used to go to the woods for healing and recreation, for destressing myself and actually use it as a church. The trees have always played a huge role in my life. Meanwhile I was feeling very attracted to celtic traditions, and everything that came from the british isles. I liked it, I preferred it to other alternatives in different settings, like I deep down really understood their culture, the people and the customs, even though it also was strange to me. When I found druidry, I felt like coming home. This was me, and everything I ever had stood for, all the way, until I came to a point where I was about to connect with the celtic pantheon. That was not right for me, I just couldn't do it. The Norse Gods and Godesses took a huge step forward and claimed their existence for me. I researched the asatru tradition, but found out that their practising wasn't quite the right for me either. I liked the Druid take on things, while I connected to the Norse pantheon.

I searched for my ancestors and found them to be living very much in the same place all the way back to 1200. I read a lot of local history and went to places where my forefathers had lived and found out that they were actually very influenced by the Celts at the time of early christianization. A group of Filidhs had escaped to Norway with their faith and established themselves in the mountains of Norway, not far from my ancestors. Celtic stone crosses were found in this area. The myths from the two traditions spring from a common indo-european platform, they share the same symbology and morals, just with different names in them. They are closely related in so many ways.

I think that I'm ok with this feeling of being in between, I think that my ancestors felt the same way sometimes. I wholeheartedly agree with the other posters on this thread in that Druidry is open so that there shouldn't be any conflict, but I personally needed the Spirit of the Land to be my teacher.

[skydove]

Illion , what a wonderful journey you have had I think your story is very inspirational, I very much liked the fact that you have dug deep into your roots to find the spirit of your land and seem to have successfully merged it into the spirit of your own soul.

[DaRC]

Hi Motholfr and Illion - this is not uncommon at all.
I have been through precisely the same and others have too. I've been developing some notes, perhaps a website.
Here's some of my notes

Balancing our history

I am a Heathen Druid (those living in NW Europe can call it the Gewessi path) and early on, I am happy to admit, I struggled to reconcile the Druidic teachings with the Heathen approach. I kept trying to intellectually associate Heathen Gods with Celtic ones, or mix and match (which never felt 'right'). Then once something reminded me of the Chinese approach to cooking and religion; in cooking the basis is garlic, spring onion and ginger, in religion it is confuscionism, taoism and buddhism everything seemed to click into place with regards to the Gewessi way.

For me a stable worldview is based upon a trium / triangle (one of mathematics most stable shapes) that fits with Druidry. I describe them as the strands of Awen:

1. (Meso)Druidry - provides a philosophical basis and structure for living.
2. Heathenism - provides a religious base for working with the spirits, or energies, of this land.
3. Logic - provides a basis in the 'art of thinking' that grew from classical philosophy into modern scientific thought.

This also reflects the Druidic approach to life of Knowledge, Experience and Inquiry. So, as OBOD itself states, Druidry is a philosophy rather than a religion. The logical corner is the western scientific method - as a Computer bod and product of a Western society it's part of my technical training and culture, which helps keep my feet on the ground.

Heathenism means that I work with the Anglo-Saxon / Germanic gods - this means Thunor rather than Thor (Norse) or Taranis (Celtic) - but am happy to use appropriate places in the landscape. Locally I have the Anglo-Saxon named Thundersbarrow and also Chanctonbury Ring - which archaeologists think was a Romano-British temple dedicated to Taranis-Jupiter. This is where the landscape talks; in this part of the country thunderstorms usually move up from the South West and then travel along the hills of the South Downs. The closest place to the thunder and lightning is up on these hills where both of these places are - which explains the association with a Thunder god.

The two dragons

I can only describe the thoughts my journey through this issue have brought forth. The English - Celtic issue is a bi-polarised one and it should not be; as it states in the Mabinoigen the English and Celts are like two intertwined dragons, red and white, constantly in conflict. Over time this interwining has become so tightly coupled that we form almost a single strand weave. The more I have investigated the more I find the strands interwoven but at my core I don't feel Celtic. This is where the Gewessi way becomes important. It provides a way to integrate the English-Celtic issue into a cohesive pattern.

To understand Druidry it is necessary to understand (i.e. have sufficient knowledge of) Celtic culture and Celticism. If being a Druid or Druidry is a path of Knowledge, Experience and Inquiry then denying any relevance of the past is contrary to those 3 precepts. However, and this maybe regarded as pure heresy by some, England is in many respects the forgotten Celtic country; so I would suggest that it is necessary to understand not only the history of the land but the history of the peoples of this land. An example of this are the Arthurian legends - originally Romano-British then promoted by the Normans as a political tool against Anglo-Saxon culture and now via the Victorian Celtic Twilight they are a mainstream part of British culture. Then there are the places names, features of the landscape and the English language which all contain elements of our Celtic ancestors.

To follow the Gewessi way means knowing the taproots that are the Red and White Dragon's of the past, to grow strong roots in the present that will bloom to bring forth a harmonious rose in the future garden.

[illion]

Thank you, Skydove
So many things have happened in my life since I signed up for the bardic course in 2008. I've really needed these three years to get through it all. I'm now at the end of the grade, but I don't think I'm ready to let go of it yet, there are more things to be sorted out before I can go on to ovate. Oh, I really wonder what lies ahead....

Dear, DaRc
This was very inspiring for me, it was very nice to find out that there are others on the same path. I would really like to read more of your papers to learn more of the Gewessi path, I would be really happy if you would like to share some of it. Do you know where I could find more reliable information on this? Any websites or books you would recommend?

[Ghostrider]

Good morning peeps!

I too practice 'Viking Druidry' Mainly because the Norse pantheon fits my bill more than the Celtic pantheon.
Having said that... there really isn't that much difference between the Norse / Germanic beliefs and Celtic ones. I'm sure there's loaaads and loaaaads of threads to be found on that, so I will not delve into that too much.

As for Asatru being more 'manly'... I would have to disagree. It depends on your own interaction with the Aesir and Vanir of course, but I find Freya, Frigg, Ran and others to be equally significant as f.i. Tyr, Wodan and Donar. The problem is, that the male deities are more known, since those who recorded history ( mainly Christian monks ) ran into warriors more frequently than farmers, artists, etc.
It would be quite unlikely for a warrior raiding a town to call on Freya or Frigg Mind you, if he wanted ennemy ships to get sunk, he might ask for Ran to collect the souls of the sailors on them

If you delve into Germanic beliefs, you will find sufficient Godesses. How you implement these into your own beliefs is entirely up to you. As for the Wiccan stuff... that too is up to yourself. In Druidry, there is no FIXED way of 'practicing beliefs' (if any). I'm not too hung up on Wicca either, but others might find it apealing and if they incorporate Aesir and / or Vanir into their rituals, who am I to complain?
To me Druidry is more a new way of looking at the world and thinking about things. I also celebrate the 8 festivals, with slight variations ( Yule i.o. Alban Arthan for instance ).

Perhaps, in stead of looking for the 'conflicts', you might want to search for similarities?

[Ice]

I agree. Good Morning to you too

Looking for and actively seeking conflicts are not a good thing IMHO. Why? because we could all do the same thing. The board would look like a whole series of the The Jeremy Kyle Show only longer, more tedious and dragged out. You see when things are as obvious as a herd of charging elephants, like the tattoo on my wrist, it leaves me glassy eyed to think of the implications in the long run. I have lived in this place all of my life, I come from a huge family, The Taffia. Incomers may not know this of course, just saying. The whole thing is illogical, it does not add up at all. what are the implications upon yourself? Is it worth it? It's not right,I could write a book too. (but no one liked it as far as I remember.... I clearly remember it went to legal issues with muck spreading a few years ago)...nothing will be acheived or changed by any of this.

To me the whole thing is a waste of time, effort and energy. Shouldn't we be doing something a bit more positive this weekend to celebrate the festival? I shall be out giving the season the celebration that this deserves, with friends and in the countryside. I'll be giving it some serious welly doing the thing that we do.

Blessings of the season to you all

[DaRC]

Dear, DaRc
This was very inspiring for me, it was very nice to find out that there are others on the same path. I would really like to read more of your papers to learn more of the Gewessi path, I would be really happy if you would like to share some of it. Do you know where I could find more reliable information on this? Any websites or books you would recommend?

Illion I am glad to hear that you found it inspirational - I came across the Gewessi construct, or meme, about a decade ago on the old usenet forums. It was heavily discussed amongst the British pagans on one of the alt.pagan sub boards. There aren't any books, as far as i know (AFAIK), and the only website I know of is this one created by Thorn, who introduced me to the idea (see below).

This lack of information is why, as part of my OBOD Ovate work, I've been trying to expand upon the information and record my personal connection to the Gewessi path. In the decade of me feeling Gewessi I've moved away from a specifically British, which is where Thorn has positioned her website, to a Northern Western European one - historically the Northern Tribes (Celts, Germans, Norse), as I term them, have interacted heavily. For example some modern British/Scottish people in the islands of Orkney and the Western isles feel closer, culturally, to the Norwegians than the Celts. Going back into the past and Neolithic times there is evidence of the Amesbury Archer which shows that there was communication and links between the Alpine people and British peoples. Culturally I regards North Western Europe as a melting pot of all these peoples who create a common cultural landscape but it is on the lands where the people live that the national nuance differences are created.

So this is all about working with the spirit(s) of our own natural landscape - within the British isles and for those people drawn to this path who live in North Western Europe it is an appropriate meme.

Thorn's Gewessi website : http://gewessi.faithweb.com/
Amesbury Archer : http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/archer.html
What a Meme is : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme