Odinism and the Far Right?

[Ben Wood]

Dear All,

My Bardic Course Package has arrived and I'm very excited- I just need to sort out my standing-order!

As part of formally beginning this path I've trying to discover more about my ancestors- particularly the Germanic side of the equation. But having begun to look into Odin-ism I've felt somewhat disconcerted. If you go onto the Youtube page of the Odinist Rite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMFMhOGi ... ideo_title you'll come across a young man talking about the 'malaise' of 'multiculturalism' and the 'essential' 'folk' 'nature' of the Norse/Germanic people. I worry that while such language is appealing, it has disturbing echoes of the language of racial purity we find in Hitler's National Socialism. Do people think this is a fair concern?

As someone who would really like to investigate the interchange between Druidry and the Norse Tradition- I would be interested to hear from Aseratru-ish or White Dragon Druids on these anxieties. In the video the gentleman talks about 'common physical features', 'common blood' and 'ancestry' which I read as saying that a Caribbean-Briton couldn't become part of this Odinist organisation. Again, is this a fair inference? I've always been exceedingly anti-fascist and downright Left-wing and would never like to think that I'd become involved in anything which endorsed (even covertly) endorsing such sentiments. I think what I've always valued about Druidry (at least as practised in BDO and OBOD) is the sense that alongside it's folkish spirit, there has always been the acknowledgement of the elastic nature of 'the Celtic' and the multiple migrations which have shaped the lands where Druids settled and worshipped. Perhaps this same attitude is found among Asatru people, maybe I've simply got the wrong end of the stick.

[Kima]

When you start discussing such topics as "the land" or "ancestry there is a real risk of essentializing such experiences, and the far right often taps into these ideas and instrumentalizes them to support their politics. It's good to be careful about the sources you find (as you are) because dome of them will be dodgy! They are by no means representative of druidry.

[Lily]

Unfortunately the germanic-norse pagan tradition has been so tainted due to its appropriation by by historical and modern right-wing groups, that for most people that is the first or even the only thing they know about it. celtic spirituality is also no longer immune to it and they are starting to paint the triskele brown, for example.

When I decided to join OBOD, one of the first things I checked was if there was eve a hint of those streams of thought. And found there is, officially, none.

You know, the majority of white supremacism is probably not Pagan. Nonreligious and nominally christian promably makes up just as many or more (just reflecting the backgrounds from which they are recruited), so there are nazis of all flavors and the only thing we can do is consciously and vehemently speak out against those Ideas.

surely you will find plenty of folks who are non-rightwing asatruar. Just keep looking. Then you'll be able to experiment at the meeting point of celtic and germanic tradition.

Good Luck!!

[Arth Frown]

I don't see anything far right in the video. Whist he might talking in a way you are not use to
I did have a look on the Odinist rite website and this article which rejects White supremacists.
http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinism ... istianity/

I think you have to be careful when linking groups with anti-whatever.

[Kima]

@Arth Frown: Words and phrases like the "perversity" of the modern world or members' "birth rights", "shared physical features, shared ancestors" and "being proud of your race and your blood" do indicate a right-wing agenda and pretty much exclude any non-white people (probably even non-germanic white people) from the group. No mention of women either. Of course this is a short film and not necessarily representative, but in it Odinism comes across as an exclusively white, male-focused religion in which you need to trace back the same ancestry (emphasis on "blood") as other members.

[Arth Frown]

@Arth Frown: Words and phrases like the "perversity" of the modern world or members' "birth rights", "shared physical features, shared ancestors" and "being proud of your race and your blood" do indicate a right-wing agenda and pretty much exclude any non-white people (probably even non-germanic white people) from the group. No mention of women either. Of course this is a short film and not necessarily representative, but in it Odinism comes across as an exclusively white, male-focused religion in which you need to trace back the same ancestry (emphasis on "blood") as other members.

It does? There are loads of women within heathenry, it looks well balanced to me. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your race and common ancestry, which ever colour or race you are.
There are racists within heathenry, but these are a small minority and are rejected as non-heathen.

To turn this around- I been to many Druid public and private rituals and camps and have seen none or one non white.
Does this mean druidry is racist? of course not.

[DaRC]

Ahh this tricky question arises again - there are many Asatru organisations, such as The Troth, that wholly reject the far-right and the 'folkish' side of Heathenry. However, it is a sad fact that there are enough folkish and far-right organisation that use Asatru for their own political agenda's to pollute the whole IMO.

Finally please check out the Germanic thread from this forum :
http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewtopic.php?f=324&t=7676

[Lily]

@Arth Frown: Words and phrases like the "perversity" of the modern world or members' "birth rights", "shared physical features, shared ancestors" and "being proud of your race and your blood" do indicate a right-wing agenda

plus you have to be aware that these groups have years of experience masking their agendas with seemingly innocuous phrases. Code for those in the know to recognize each other.
Just like their symbols, they keep changing those catchphrases like a chameleon changes its colors, ever evading the prying eyes of those opposed.

check out pages such as heathens against hate

[Arth Frown]

@Arth Frown: Words and phrases like the "perversity" of the modern world or members' "birth rights", "shared physical features, shared ancestors" and "being proud of your race and your blood" do indicate a right-wing agenda

plus you have to be aware that these groups have years of experience masking their agendas with seemingly innocuous phrases. Code for those in the know to recognize each other.
Just like their symbols, they keep changing those catchphrases like a chameleon changes its colors, ever evading the prying eyes of those opposed.

check out pages such as heathens against hate

Yes it can be hard to unpick agendas.
The Odinic rite is the oldest heathen group in Britian and I have not seen anything racist. They where given charitable status in 1988. 22 years before The Druid network.
We have to be careful here on this open to the public forum not throw unfounded acquisitions.

Perversity can mean many things. You could support and help persevere Amazon rain forest tribes or even your own culture.

[Lily]

perversion... perseverance.... preservation... three entirely different things...
I think the original quote wants to say "the modern lifestyle is not a good thing, but a perversion of the old traditions" - that's all fine and good if a bit unrealistic (who'll give up all the convenience), but then to mix it in with blood/genetics/"all must look the same", that's where it gets iffy.

But I agree: Let's not generalize.
Disagree that this should not be discussed on a public part of the forum. I think this discussion has been well-balanced so far. So we're not running a risk of being dragged to court. Facts are facts.

As long as an organization speaks out expressly against right-wing/racist ideas, fine; and if the Odinic rite and the Troth do so, check them out.
As always, trust but verify.

[Daire]

While I admit some of the phrases pulled from the video do raise questions, this issue and the subsequent responses raise another concern for me. Why is it that anytime anyone wants to be separate in any way people raise the racism alarm? Separation is natural, and right. Humanity's nature is tribal. To control membership of a group based on physical features, gender, religion, culture, whatever, is not racism. It is exclusivity, the definition of private club. Being upset at a group that appears to limit its membership based on a certain cultural base is like being upset with the Girl Scouts for not admitting boys. Racism is when jobs, education, etc.--rights available to all--are limited based on these characteristics, not membership in a group or religion.

Exclusion does not mean hate.

Dáire

[Ben Wood]

Exclusion does not mean hate.

Quite so, but given the genetic melting-pot of our Island how is one to decide (in the case of exclusive forms of 'indigenous paganism) who is in and who is out? This issue does not just affect Germanic Paganism and Druidry but has become an issue in other religious/ethnic communities. It has been suggested by some Jewish scholars that the majority of contemporary 'ethnic Jewry' are actually descended from converts. This has led many Jews on the Liberal spectrum to argue that all Jews, regardless of ancestry are Jews 'by choice'. If 'Jewishness' is something a person chooses to accept and cannot be established by bloodline or language alone, is this notion of choice even more the case with something like Druidry or Asatru where claims to ancestry are blurry at best? I have Welsh, English and according the family folklore, Jewish ancestors. What am I to say to an Odinist who asks me whether I have a Nordic bloodline? What am I to say to a Welsh Druid who asks me to prove my Celtic-ness? This whole area is a genuine mine-field for me. It must be a great comfort for the young man in the video to have rooted himself down so firmly. Sadly I've never felt that sense of ancestral clarity. If the gods I've worshipped are any indication, identity will continue to be an issue.

[Daire]

Quite so, but given the genetic melting-pot of our Island how is one to decide (in the case of exclusive forms of 'indigenous paganism) who is in and who is out?

That is always a sticky point with these groups. Funny thing is blood ancestry is just a matter of how far back you want to go and which line to follow. I can say I am American for ten generations. Then I can say I am English. Or if I follow my mother's line I am German. If I follow both lines back far enough I am probably an Indo-European mutt. Hell, if popular theory is true, then if we go back far enough we are all African.

As to how they decide, no idea. I do wonder how they would handle mixed ethnicity. What if one's mother is Scandinavian going back to the dawn of time, but the father is African? That person, even by apparent Odinist standards, should have a right to join based on the mother's line, but they certainly wouldn't look the part. I can only speak for my own faith-culture. Sinnsreachd only cares about culture. Having a certain genetic makeup is not required in any way. You are Sinnsreachd if you follow our religion and culture. Period.

Dáire

[Jake]

I don't see anything far right in the video. Whist he might talking in a way you are not use to
I did have a look on the Odinist rite website and this article which rejects White supremacists.
http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinism ... istianity/

I think you have to be careful when linking groups with anti-whatever.

Like anti-gay?

In this context we should also consider the question of homosexuality since increasingly strident demands are now being made by homosexuals and lesbians to be accorded the same rights as heterosexuals...We must conclude therefore that homosexuals are subject to a form of medical dysfunction similar to a host of other medical conditions where glands are failing to perform their allotted function normally. It may or may not be possible to treat this condition satisfactorily but clearly it is not desirable in any way to encourage what, in a very real sense, is a malady...
...It would be a very serious mistake if homosexuality came to be considered as a ‘normal’ condition since there would be a definite risk that such individuals, who could have lead normal lives in due course, will be encouraged to adopt deviant behaviour patterns; in other words society will have allowed them to become sick unnecessarily.

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinic- ... tionships/)

Nothing far-right here?

We find music and film glorifying misogyny, miscegenation, drug abuse and the wonders of loose living.

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinism ... -morality/)
"Miscegenation," for those not acquainted with this obsolete and obscene term, means "interracial" marriage or sexual relations.

Thus we will hear of the ‘Black Community’ demanding this or that, or being accorded special treatment, or the ‘Gay Community’ making its special demands and so on....HAIL THE FOLK!
HAIL OUR ODAL LANDS!

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/communi ... ancestors/)

This just seems like a somewhat "kinder, gentler" Nazism to me.

[Jake]

plus you have to be aware that these groups have years of experience masking their agendas with seemingly innocuous phrases. Code for those in the know to recognize each other.
Just like their symbols, they keep changing those catchphrases like a chameleon changes its colors, ever evading the prying eyes of those opposed.

Precisely.

What am I to say to an Odinist who asks me whether I have a Nordic bloodline? What am I to say to a Welsh Druid who asks me to prove my Celtic-ness?

You could respond that you fail to see what's so special about having a shallow gene pool or why anyone would brag about it.

[Blind Owl]

I am new to this and forgive me if covering old ground how does the belief in reincarnation fit into the idea of racial ‘exclusivity’?

Now I have no idea if any of these Odinist organisations believe in reincarnation, but in the little I have read it is suggested that the Druids do/did

Is it believed that racial preference is carried over from incarnation to incarnation? Or is it just that pre-programmed meat takes precedence over the pre-programmed software?

If I was of White Germanic descent in my 6 previous lives but incarnated as an Indian in this one, would that still trump someone who was being white for the first time around?

Maybe I should have posted this in the reincarnation thread. Maybe I will the next time round

[Lily]

all of Jake's 1st post

Trust, but verify, indeed

What am I to say to an Odinist who asks me whether I have a Nordic bloodline? What am I to say to a Welsh Druid who asks me to prove my Celtic-ness?

You could respond that you fail to see what's so special about having a shallow gene pool or why anyone would brag about it.

To turn this around- I been to many Druid public and private rituals and camps and have seen none or one non white.
Does this mean druidry is racist? of course not.

Well I have known non-white druids. And non-white wiccans. But if we continue along these lines we descend in to nitpicking when there's bigger issues at stake.

[Arth Frown]

I don't see anything far right in the video. Whist he might talking in a way you are not use to
I did have a look on the Odinist rite website and this article which rejects White supremacists.
http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinism ... istianity/

I think you have to be careful when linking groups with anti-whatever.

Like anti-gay?

In this context we should also consider the question of homosexuality since increasingly strident demands are now being made by homosexuals and lesbians to be accorded the same rights as heterosexuals...We must conclude therefore that homosexuals are subject to a form of medical dysfunction similar to a host of other medical conditions where glands are failing to perform their allotted function normally. It may or may not be possible to treat this condition satisfactorily but clearly it is not desirable in any way to encourage what, in a very real sense, is a malady...
...It would be a very serious mistake if homosexuality came to be considered as a ‘normal’ condition since there would be a definite risk that such individuals, who could have lead normal lives in due course, will be encouraged to adopt deviant behaviour patterns; in other words society will have allowed them to become sick unnecessarily.

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinic- ... tionships/)

Nothing far-right here?

We find music and film glorifying misogyny, miscegenation, drug abuse and the wonders of loose living.

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/odinism ... -morality/)
"Miscegenation," for those not acquainted with this obsolete and obscene term, means "interracial" marriage or sexual relations.

Thus we will hear of the ‘Black Community’ demanding this or that, or being accorded special treatment, or the ‘Gay Community’ making its special demands and so on....HAIL THE FOLK!
HAIL OUR ODAL LANDS!

(http://www.odinic-rite.org/main/communi ... ancestors/)

This just seems like a somewhat "kinder, gentler" Nazism to me.

Ah yes. Well found
Not views I would agree with. And just for the record I'm not a member of Odinic Rite.


We need to keep it in context. Christainty, Heathenism and Druidry have far rights, but it does not mean those labels are far right.

[Arth Frown]

To turn this around- I been to many Druid public and private rituals and camps and have seen none or one non white.
Does this mean druidry is racist? of course not.

Well I have known non-white druids. And non-white wiccans. But if we continue along these lines we descend in to nitpicking when there's bigger issues at stake.[/quote]

Nitpicking?

I've been a druid and have been to many druid gatherings in the last 13 years. It was just a observation.

[Ben Wood]

Dear Blind Owl

Is it believed that racial preference is carried over from incarnation to incarnation? Or is it just that pre-programmed meat takes precedence over the pre-programmed software?

My understanding is that many in Northern Paganism believe in reincarnation although obviously not all. I certainly think a belief in reincarnation waters down any disproportionate worship of blood or biology as you rightly intimated. My understanding of reincarnation within my Druidry comes mainly from Iolo's Circle of Existence. In this scheme the soul can only join the divine realm of the Gods if it first tastes all the riches and pains of experience- animal, human, vegetable and even mineral. I think that in the course of our journey we will pass through many bloodlines and species- so I don't think there is any racial hardware. Race, like every other physical factor, is merely an outward form which changes according to lessons one needs to learn. I take the same view of sex and gender. As Bobcat has pointed out; a negative response to same-sex relationships is philosophically anathema to Druidry, because of our emphasis upon the notion of the travelling spirit. There is no man or woman, no gay, bi or straight in Druidry, only the meeting of souls in community. I would be reticent to be part of anything that attempted to crystallise the soul's journey.