Odinism and the Far Right?

[DJ Droood]

I've been a druid and have been to many druid gatherings in the last 13 years. It was just a observation.

Maybe it is demographics of where we live, but I've never been to a druid retreat/event where there *was not* someone...usually several someones...of non-European ancestory....I've met Druids with Asian, African and Native ancestory. I do think ancestory is important to druidry, but on a personal level...we celebrate our unique stories....I've never sensed from any druid group/event or materials that Druidry should be exclusive to Northern Europeans, although I certainly see how it would be of more interest to NE ethnic groups than any other.

Perhaps the Celtic Recontructionists might attract more racialists, but the people who post on their list servs don't seem to obsess about it..they seem to be mostly liberal, educated, cosmopolitan-types more fussed by the fact that there is no mention of the solstices and equinoxes in the Blue Book of the Black Cow, etc.

My only exposure to Odinism is a guy that turns up at the annual Halloween ball dressed like Thor.

[Arth Frown]

Perhaps the Celtic Recontructionists might attract more racialists, but the people who post on their list servs don't seem to obsess about it..they seem to be mostly liberal, educated, cosmopolitan-types more fussed by the fact that there is no mention of the solstices and equinoxes in the Blue Book of the Black Cow, etc.

LOL.
I have no idea if there is Celtic recons who are racists. I don't have much to do with them.

My only exposure to Odinism is a guy that turns up at the annual Halloween ball dressed like Thor.

I'm a recently converted Odinist/Heathen/Asatru and can say I don't dress up as Thor.
It's a shame that those within a group who are racist/bigots and negative are in the minority, but get the loudest voices

[Lily]

It's a shame that those within a group who are racist/bigots and negative are in the minority, but get the loudest voices

Don't they always? Look at the Tea party or the taliban

[DJ Droood]

I have no idea if there is Celtic recons who are racists. I don't have much to do with them.

I think there are degrees of racism..it is a catch-all pejorative that could be applied to someone who thinks they and their toothless backwoods cousins are the master race to someone who thinks immigration policy needs fixing or swears at Asian drivers on the freeway....much like "fascist" is a catch-all to describe anyone from honest-to-goodness uniform-worshiping totalitarians to someone who thinks we should get "tougher on crime"...a lot depends on who is throwing around the terms(and often says more about them then the target).

So given the flexible and often incorrect usage of the words, I would imagine there are plenty of CRs, OBODies, Odinists, Roman Catholics and athiests, etc. who are "racist" and "fascist", at least according to someone.

[Jake]

Separation is natural, and right. Humanity's nature is tribal.

Many if not most tribal peoples acknowledge all sorts of other-than-human beings -- trees and other plants, hummingbirds, bears, lakes and rivers, rocks, particular mountain peaks, thunderstorms -- as members (or even progenitors) of their societies and as close kin.

Which leads one to believe that tribal peoples may have a very different definition of "tribe" than the one(s) most often ascribed to them by those of us in the industrialized world who may be thinking in terms of recent biological descent and shared "culture."

Exclusion does not mean hate.

But it generally means ignorance. And ignorance often leads to fear. And fear very commonly leads to hate.

[Lily]

how is one to decide (in the case of exclusive forms of 'indigenous paganism') who is in and who is out?

ends up a game of "you can't play, neh-neh-neneh-neh, because we don't like the way you look"... quite childish actually...

[Arth Frown]

how is one to decide (in the case of exclusive forms of 'indigenous paganism') who is in and who is out?

ends up a game of "you can't play, neh-neh-neneh-neh, because we don't like the way you look"... quite childish actually...

You can play. Just ignore them. The Troth are a more liberal group http://www.thetroth.org/index.php?page= ... estyle=mid

[DaRC]

My only exposure to Odinism is a guy that turns up at the annual Halloween ball dressed like Thor.

Yep funnily enough most people aren't keen on poking their own eye out and getting stabbed with a spear, I guessed he'd be Asatru, as a follower of Thor, rather than Odinist.

More seriously the far-right always like to ignore the evidence that the priests of Freyr were accused of dressing like girls, although coming from the Christian's at the time this might be biased , archaeological evidence does (I'd need to research the references though) suggest that there may have been some fluidity in gender roles - women buried in warrior fashion and men buried with more feminine goods. Although we cannot be sure on this.

Genetic studies in Britain identified one ancient Yorkshire family who had black genetic markers - they suspect that they were descended from an African Roman unit who were stationed there. Which really does show how much of a genetic melting pot we all come from. Also within the Heathen mythology you have two tribes, the Aesir and the Vanir, who war and then merge. Additionally the Jotun's (the one's who Thor's always off in the East killing) are regularly inter-marrying with the Aesir and Vanir.

But yes the idea of the travelling souls is an important one, as is the relationship with the land you live on not the genetics or culture that you came from.

It's human nature to be tribal, but not something to supercede humanity or humour. Although my side of the river is obviously the better one, as opposed to that dodgy, uncouth & uncivilized other side, where my friend is from. We are often forced to visit the pub and have intense negotiations upon the subject. Our partners think it's just some easy banter and drinking... as if it's fun

[Lily]

And so WHAT if your genes come from somewhere else.
Distance is relative, definitely to beings as powerful and transcendent as gods, a few hundred or thousand miles can't be a big deal eh?

Maybe the minds of those people are simply too small.

We are all made of the same stuff the stars are made from.

Maybe genes are overrated, they're just molecules.
As soon as you breathe the air of a place, and eat the products of the land, you ARE that place, very materialistically.
Why not then be entitled to explore the deities of that place.

[Kima]

There are loads of women within heathenry, it looks well balanced to me. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your race and common ancestry, which ever colour or race you are.

The lack of balance I was pointing at was strictly refering to representations (or lack thereof) in the specific video I watched. I am sure that there are women in heathenry but they were absent from that video.

Being proud of your ancestry is one thing, but this goes one step further and links the idea of belonging to one place with the idea of belonging to a race. The concept of "blood" and "bloodlines" is fraught with essentialist issues and creates a very exclusive and exclusionary type of discourse that I am particularly wary of.

To turn this around- I been to many Druid public and private rituals and camps and have seen none or one non white.
Does this mean druidry is racist? of course not.

While it does not mean that druidry is racist, it does say something about the type of discourse that druidry uses. The words you choose in order to define yourself will inevitably delineate some sort of "inside" and "outside" and influence the ability of others to feel that they can, or cannot, belong. Also, you cannot necessarily tell whether someone is "white" or "non-white" by the way they look. The definition of these categories in itself can be very problematic.

Maybe genes are overrated, they're just molecules.
As soon as you breathe the air of a place, and eat the products of the land, you ARE that place, very materialistically.

I agree with this view

[DJ Droood]

I think much of what we label as racism isn't about being upset by the colour of a person's skin or their ancestry (although I'm sure there are "old school" racists out there who hold on to Victorian/pre-genetic ideas about "race")...I think what we often witness is a reaction to perceived threats to established "culture"....we are living in a time of migration and whole communities of people from other cultures..largely Asian....are establishing themselves in formerly homogeneous white Christian nations. This is all reasonably new....any of us over 40 can recall going to school when there "may" have been a non-white kid in the class picture....now, our kids go to schools where they shut down for Eid. Conversations about this are largely suppressed and dismissed as "racist" (I long ago gave up questioning my kids about the demographics of their schools and cross-cultural interactions because they are so well trained to consider the very topic "racist" that the conversation goes nowhere.)...probably because hate-filled fascists have made it their home turf and eliminated the possibility of rational discussion. Personally, I feel it is legitimate to comment on changes in our society brought about by immigration..both the positive and unsettling aspects. Boiling the issues down to colour of a persons skin is a simplistic red herring.

[Aitrus]

Racism.

It's one of those touchy subjects that can spin out of control very quickly. Lots of name calling and accusations. How many times is the "racism" card, or "reverse-racism" card, played in politics? It seems the height of hypocricy to me for either side of a debate to accuse the other of being racist or overly anti-racist.

One side claims that race doesn't matter (or shouldn't matter), but then uses race to justify things like Affirmative Action and condone the policies and actions of the ACLU and the New Black Panther Party.

The other side is equally skewed in it's views in that they go out of their way to not be "racist" while anybody who can read between the lines can see the truth. You see it in the allowed continued existence of the KKK, various anti-Muslim movements and the Nazi Party.

Then there are many in the middle who just want the whole fracas over race to end. They want those on one side to stop using the issue for political purposes, and those on the other side to stop using it to justify their version of morality.

Don't believe everything you see on TV. The Tea Party isn't racist, but there are racists in the Tea Party. The Black Panthers wasn't racist, but there are racists in the Black Panthers. Neither side of the political spectrum is racist, but there are racists on both sides of the political spectrum.

DJ, you're right. Those issues need to be discussed with our children. It's the only way to stop the "racism vs. anti-racism" cycle from continuing.

[Ben Wood]

In many ways a lot of what we bracket as racism comes from the unease of older generations. I was born in the 80s when the flexible work/labour market of Thatcher and greater European integration were taking root after the Cold War. I have grown up in a multi-racial, multicultural world. It just seems very natural to me. My Secondary was probably 30% non-white. It was never a big issue. These people, whether Muslim, Sikh or Hindu become your friends and peers. Personally I found it a great privilege to be exposed to so many cultures. It equipped me to navigate the world better and shake off the 'little-Englander' mentality you find in the Daily Mail and the Express. There are undoubted tensions which come along with all this but a lot of it comes down to issues around integration and getting different communities to inhabit the same public space together. I think my school was very good at providing such a public space. This may not be everyone's experience of course but I don't think immigration need be an issue if we help newcomers participate in our society. However, we can't expect newcomers to integrate if we refuse to learn about other cultures and languages. The British have terrible double standards on this front. Low-level xenophobia seems to be a pass-time in some parts of the UK. We need to role up our sleeves and get used to a globalist world- where we're Europeans as much as Britons.

[DJ Droood]

And not to get too far away from Odinism and the far right, but I have "lefty" friends who have certainly been influenced by "Israeli apartheid" opponents, and it certainly has the look and feel of anti-semitism...go to any sort of "progressive" demonstration and Palistinian flags and anti-Israeli signs are everywhere, and I get the feeling egalitarianism and universal justice aren't their main focus.

I also know not one, but several gay men who are quite viciously anti-Muslim, in reaction to the less than open attitude towards homosexuality expressed by Islam, I presume, and these guys aren't fascists, so "racism" isn't the sole domain of the White Nationalist types.

My interest is in an open, tolerant, secular, progressive society that the collective Western WE have been building for a couple of hundred years....I worry about how an influx of fundamentalist monotheists with certain cultural values the West started moving away from a long time ago is going to change our society...you already see bizarre counter-reactions in Europe like the banning of mosques and laws and armed police telling women what they can wear...both a huge erosion of our rights, imo...so does wanting to have open discussions about this or concerns make me a "racist"?

[Lily]

And not to get too far away from Odinism and the far right, but I have "lefty" friends who have certainly been influenced by "Israeli apartheid" opponents, and it certainly has the look and feel of anti-semitism...go to any sort of "progressive" demonstration and Palistinian flags and anti-Israeli signs are everywhere, and I get the feeling egalitarianism and universal justice aren't their main focus.

As long as it's about universal justice and such, I'm ok with anti-Israel sentiments. They're really screwing it up down there with the support of Europe and the US. So are the Palestinian politicos, and who suffers? the normal folks. as usual.
(Edit) and the antisemitism card is quickly played to (inadvertently or on purpose) gloss over the international laws being violated down there.
I don't go to demos so I can only assume the more rabid pro-Palestinian folks attend. Nay, I'd rather buy "solidarity" Palestinian olive oil if that does any good.

I also know not one, but several gay men who are quite viciously anti-Muslim, in reaction to the less than open attitude towards homosexuality expressed by Islam, I presume, and these guys aren't fascists, so "racism" isn't the sole domain of the White Nationalist types.

Absolutely NOT. I could count half a dozen of instances where other groups are haters. I won't, in order not to heat up the discussion. Intolerance should not be answered in like coin, but it's hard not to say "I won't play with you anymore" after having been insulted.

Unfortunately, intolerance seems to be ingrained. Even Chimps have it. That's no excuse though!!

[Ben Wood]

Can I just say (I don't know what the moderators think?) I've been very impressed by the high-level and thoughtful responses I've seen on what could have been a problematic thread. Thanks guys- you've encouraged to continue to examine the Norse Tradition but with a self-aware and critical edge.

[DaRC]

I'm glad you will continue to look at the Germanic / Norse tradition,
personally I'm an OBOD Heathen so feel free to PM me (or add to the Germanic thread) with any questions.

[Lily]

Glad we were able to feed the discussion and not the fire

DaRC is right, and while I'm not drawn towards the germanic path, I care a lot about this topic because I live in a german speaking country and I guess we are highly "trained" on this - everyone will have covered the 3rd Reich in history class, there's a lot of awareness on right wing groups, intensive discussion in the media, etc. etc. - never forget, but I guess it's only right to go ahead, study, and reclaim territory from those who want to spoil germanic/norse pagan spirituality with that brown mess.

[Eormenric]

As an English heathen (with Buddhist philosophical ideas as well, I must admit), I have to give it to you plain. Odinism is filled with racism and racists, as well as homophobia and the hatred of other people the far-right deems ''evil''. The fact that many heathens turn a blind eye to the racism in heathenism is troubling and an indictment of the weakness of many members of heathen faiths in Europe. Germanic theology is not racist, but many of the organizations are; which strikes me as insincere, it implies that they only flocked to it because they saw it as a ''racial'', ''white'', political thing rather than a true religion.

To give a brief view of my own beliefs, I am a heathen, but also a left-winger and an anti-racist (since I was a child), I believe that SOME of my ancestor followed English heathenism, but here is the snag, I do not know how many groups all of my ancestors belong to (most were actually Gaelic and Italian, actually), yet because I am pale many would acknowledge me as an ''ethnic English heathen''. If I had English ancestors, yet I had darker skin and many of my ancestors were black and Chinese, they wouldn't afford me the same luxury. This is plainly wrong and very disgusting. It also doesn't speak well of Odinism. A religion that is only based on ancestry and right-wing politics, is not a real religion, it is a movement. Real religions in the modern era accept non-ethnic members.

I was actually a historian of Anglo-Saxon history and theology, as well as Germanic in general, before becoming an actual English heathen, so maybe that is why I am one of the only English heathens I have met online who knows that racism is not a tenet of Germanic religion. Looking through old heathen texts (admittedly compiled mostly by Christians), you'd see that Woden didn't exactly hang himself on a tree to teach his mankind that they have to create racial creeds and division amongst mankind. Thunor didn't ride his goat-drawn chariot to kill ''all those damn darkies''. Racist believes cannot truly be found in Germanic religion plain and simple. And the over-exaggeration of the importance of ancestor worship is something that I always found laughable. Yes, you should revere your ancestors, but that should be down in a more familial rather than a super-ethnic sense; not all the Old English people were the ancestors of a specific English person, revering them all as such is nonsense. And a reverence for ancestors need not make one hateful of other ethnic groups, nor believe in bloodline nonsense (this is the modern era! My blood is type O and can be found in black people too, as well as yellow people), and it should not be equated with the outdated (and ugly) concept of race. As the neanderthals have perished, there is only one human race and many ethnic groups that have been intermixing for centuries. Even the Norse (who share a lot of genetics with Native Americans, Ural (like Finns), and Altaic people - which are not found in other Germanic people, anyway. Hint: ethnic groups are often mixed) married Slavic women quite commonly. English kings even married Hungarians (a Ural people).

So my suggestion for you, Ben Wood, is to ignore all of the revivals for the most part (the Troth are OK, though, even if they do fall into the ''Northern Europeans are indigenous'' trap; whilst accepting conversions), and just focus on the Eddas and works by historians...along with common sense. 'The Lost Gods of England' by Brian Branston is a great book if you are interested in Germanic mythology (especially English) and it is a book with a profound influence on my beliefs. Infact, I owe none of my religious beliefs to any ''Asatru'' or ''Odinic'' group and I think I am better for it.

[Eormenric]

And so WHAT if your genes come from somewhere else.
Distance is relative, definitely to beings as powerful and transcendent as gods, a few hundred or thousand miles can't be a big deal eh?

Maybe the minds of those people are simply too small.

We are all made of the same stuff the stars are made from.

Maybe genes are overrated, they're just molecules.
As soon as you breathe the air of a place, and eat the products of the land, you ARE that place, very materialistically.
Why not then be entitled to explore the deities of that place.

Lily, you have stated everything I have believed. And I have often pointed out that we are, in fact, related the stars themselves which makes human racism laughable. And I have a problem with Woden, the god of wisdom, holding unwise racist view when he holds almost all the knowledge of the universe in his head. And why would a god of mankind only favour members from a specific ethnic group? Ethnicity of us humans, who he helps govern, would seem irrelevant to him, naturally. People do not give the god of wisdom, diplomacy and magic much credit.