Reincarnation

[saphera]

Does anyone think that the new baby soul chooses where to be born , does it have pre knowledge of the life if wishes to learn about? Is there any 'thing' leading the soul in it's learning, are all souls connected to each other and so learn from each other through life in the manifest world?

Depends on what you mean by 'chooses.' I believe that all possible choices already exist in a Multiverse (a conglomeration of universes). Any time a decision is made, we create a fork...one path leads to the universe where we made the choice, and another path leads to the universe where we didn't make the choice. So all possibilities already exist (predestination). What changes is our consciousness as it moves from choice to choice (free will).

Could be like this....
A choice and yet not a choice... free will and yet not free will.
Like a jig saw puzzle...complete when all the relevant pieces are in place.
And there is a place for each unique piece.
We might choose a piece from all others...to fit in its special place.
Each piece has only one place it can be in any particular picture... because of the shape and colour it is.

The jigsaw puzzle has the potential to be any picture.... but can only be certain picture when the colours and shapes of a special set of pieces are seen together.
Life has the potential to be anything.....but is only defined when a special set of pieces come to life and fit together as one.

[Argenta]

However, as mentioned before, babies come into this world as blank slates, karmically speaking, they absorb only what they have around them.

I wonder, if this is true, how do you explain that babies are born in starkly different conditions... some to violence, hate, poverty, starvation, and others to love, abundance, beauty, and care? Why so some get ill and die, while others prosper? Or, on a lesser scale, why are their characters oftentimes so different even if their environment is virtually the same? Why is each baby and child different in their preferences and needs? If there is no karma at birth, is it all just chance and coincidence? Or, if it simply their parents' karma that they are suffering, why should they? And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?

I'm asking this is a spirit of inquiry, I'm really interested in the different ways that people try to understand what happens to us.

[treegod]

However, as mentioned before, babies come into this world as blank slates, karmically speaking, they absorb only what they have around them.

I wonder, if this is true, how do you explain that babies are born in starkly different conditions... some to violence, hate, poverty, starvation, and others to love, abundance, beauty, and care? Why so some get ill and die, while others prosper?

My use of karma is to do with social and cultural conditioning. This doesn't take in to account genetics or the potential and actual qualities a baby has. And certainly doesn't mean that they deserve the circumstances they are born to.

Babies are like sponges, they do absorb a lot of what is in their environment, but they don't do it passively, they are very interactive, at a few months old anyway. This is something I've been learning with my nephew. It's been amazing to see how he learns and develops. He has all the qualities I associate with intelligence; sensitivity, responsiveness and adaptability.

I understand now that though he might absorb what is around him like a sponge, he also has his own unique "self", that means that he is more than just a combination of his parents. He is his own person, not an extension. At least that is the perspective of some of the family, babies themselves take time to develop a clear "self-other" perspective, which really expresses itself in the so-called "terrible twos". Then they really establish who they are apart from what has influenced them that far, as long as their individuality has been honoured and not ignored or repressed.

And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?

The most crucial question, I think. We're born with it, we are born "unconditioned," not fitting any role, function or stereotype in society. It doesn't need to be programmed but just given space and encouragement to grow. So our essential freedom is there with us when we are born and is with us until we die. We can access it at any point in our life. We don't have to be dominated by our conditioning, though it is important to acknowledge influences. Though some people might be conditioned to such a degree that they may never overcome their programming or conditioning, but I think there's hope for everyone. There was for me, otherwise I wouldn't be here

[Argenta]

My use of karma is to do with social and cultural conditioning. This doesn't take in to account genetics or the potential and actual qualities a baby has. And certainly doesn't mean that they deserve the circumstances they are born to.

Oh, OK. My view of karma is more traditional, ie. the sum total of reactions to all our activities, so it influences a person right down to genetic material, physical and psychological abilities, and whatever else makes us "us".

In a sense, it does mean we "deserve" it, but it's an understanding that should be tempered by compassion (it doesn't mean we don't help the person suffering because it's "their karma"), personal responsibility (nobody else is there to blame, no uncaring god, unjust social system, irresponsible parents, or unloving partner) and flexibility (if we've brought it on ourselves by past actions, it doesn't mean we can't change it this time over).

Babies are like sponges, they do absorb a lot of what is in their environment, but they don't do it passively, they are very interactive, at a few months old anyway. This is something I've been learning with my nephew. It's been amazing to see how he learns and develops. He has all the qualities I associate with intelligence; sensitivity, responsiveness and adaptability.

Sure, same experience here with my kids.
But what I wonder is why, then, do some kids have the environment in which they can learn and develop, while others are cut at the root?
And there are certainly babies who from the start lack these qualities you list, usually due to medical conditions. If it's not karma, what is it?

And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?

The most crucial question, I think. We're born with it, we are born "unconditioned," not fitting any role, function or stereotype in society. It doesn't need to be programmed but just given space and encouragement to grow. So our essential freedom is there with us when we are born and is with us until we die. We can access it at any point in our life. We don't have to be dominated by our conditioning, though it is important to acknowledge influences. Though some people might be conditioned to such a degree that they may never overcome their programming or conditioning, but I think there's hope for everyone. There was for me, otherwise I wouldn't be here

I think I understand your reasoning -- I feel I've actually gone through at least two such re-programmings so far.
However, I'm not sure you answered my question. Can you rephrase it, please, if it's not too boring a subject?

I hope I'm not going too OT...

[treegod]

I hope I'm not going too OT...

Noooo! It's interesting and challenging. So, thanks

My use of karma is to do with social and cultural conditioning. This doesn't take in to account genetics or the potential and actual qualities a baby has. And certainly doesn't mean that they deserve the circumstances they are born to.

Oh, OK. My view of karma is more traditional, ie. the sum total of reactions to all our activities, so it influences a person right down to genetic material, physical and psychological abilities, and whatever else makes us "us".

I think you're right. In general I equate karma with consequences. In a sense everything that exists now is the karma or consequence of the Big Bang, exploding stars and evolution etc etc etc. I've been a bit selective with it, focussing on human consequence. The sort of consequences we can take responsibility for and change, the rest is just nature.

In a sense, it does mean we "deserve" it, but it's an understanding that should be tempered by compassion (it doesn't mean we don't help the person suffering because it's "their karma"), personal responsibility (nobody else is there to blame, no uncaring god, unjust social system, irresponsible parents, or unloving partner) and flexibility (if we've brought it on ourselves by past actions, it doesn't mean we can't change it this time over).

That's a wonderful triad. Yes, yes and yes. I definately don't spend my life saying "I should have been born to different people" or "in a different society". I was born in the situation I was born in, and grew up how I grew up. Now I'm an adult I can recognise that, and accept it. But also being an adult it is my responsibility what I do with it, I have the choice to do things differently or the same if I want.

But what I wonder is why, then, do some kids have the environment in which they can learn and develop, while others are cut at the root?

Consequences. Too many to name. We live in a world of lopsided consequences. Some just, some not. My girlfriend has been raised with katsugen, a Japanese tradition to help liberate the body's autonomous system. She's had that from birth and a very different education from me. But there's more similarities between me and her than me and my sister. I had more-or-less the same education as my sister yet we're very different. Different opportunities, different experiences, exposed to different things in different places at different times. Little details that can snowball to make a big difference later in life.

At birth I believe all people deserve the same opportunities for growth and development but the world isn't like that.

And there are certainly babies who from the start lack these qualities you list, usually due to medical conditions. If it's not karma, what is it?

Consequences. Consequences of living in the universe we live in. Not everything's perfect, not everything goes according to plan. What if now I happen to be sitting in just the spot where a meteorite will land? I don't believe I "deserve" it, like it's some sort of cosmic justice making things even. But it could happen.

Why are some born the way they are? Why are some born with Down's Syndrome? Or physical defects? Why have I got green eyes? Some of these things can't be helped and other can. Parent's lifestyle has an effect on the developing baby, but not always. It might be a karma, but I don' think it's always deserved.

Looking back there is something that Sencha said that has some relevance here.

I don't believe in 'karmic baggage' either. What some call 'karma,' I simply see as the result of natural laws.

I think I understand your reasoning -- I feel I've actually gone through at least two such re-programmings so far.
However, I'm not sure you answered my question. Can you rephrase it, please, if it's not too boring a subject?

Hmmm, I think I leapt ahead, not sure if I understood the question properly.

"And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?"

Were you asking how one person can get their own karma rather than it being transferred in an "inheritance"?

BTW, I have a couple of poems that I'll send to you through PM.

[Argenta]

Hmmm, I think I leapt ahead, not sure if I understood the question properly.

"And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?"

Were you asking how one person can get their own karma rather than it being transferred in an "inheritance"?

Yes, that was what I meant. (But it is only a relevant question if you think the baby suffers because of its parents.)
Also, when you say consequences, consequences to what?

BTW, I have a couple of poems that I'll send to you through PM.

I was really surprised and happy to find them in my Inbox Thanks a lot.

[treegod]

"And when does it stop and they get reactions for their own actions?"

Were you asking how one person can get their own karma rather than it being transferred in an "inheritance"?

Yes, that was what I meant. (But it is only a relevant question if you think the baby suffers because of its parents.)

Yes, we can suffer because of our parents. And because of our grandparents, and our society. And even its history. For example I can see the effects of WWII in my family's life.

In some ways karma/consequences won't stop. But it can be a fertile "compost" from which human potential can grow, or an alchemy to transmute it into something else (Dharma as you might understand from one of the poems). As a child I was too young to understand or take responsibility of them influences on me and my life. It's up to parents at that point to take responsibility. But when I became an adult it was then up to me to decide for my own life, to integrate or reject the influences in my life. But rejecting them doesn't mean they go away, it just means they are suppressed or repressed in the unconscious. And when they are unconscious they easily "escape" and transmit themselves onto the next generation.

Karma "stops" or rather is transformed, when we take responsibility got the influences on our lives. Not everyone does though, obviously, and so the same mistakes are repeated. It take individuals to face the world as it is, and the karma it contains, and do something with it.

Also, when you say consequences, consequences to what?

I wasn't being specific. But if it helps I'll concentrate on the "sort of consequences we can take responsibility for and change, the rest is just nature." There are consequences to evolution, to the Big Bang. But these subjects are beyond the scope of human responsibility I think.

My mum had a good childhood and my dad had a bad one. This has influenced how they themselves parented, with mixed results between me and my sister. But I'm more of a result or my parents or society, I'm a person and I can make my own choices that don't always depend on my influences. Which is how consequences can be changed.

I was really surprised and happy to find them in my Inbox Thanks a lot.

You're welcome

[Ainevar]

I have to sort my thoughts together but I find each theory already presented quite interesting.

[FoxPhantom]

possible theory :when were born, were inside a small system to what will happen. Even though as babies we wouldn't have been able to change where we want to be, or what certain conditions of living since someone planned ahead, along with what to believe, or not to believe. Yet once were out of the cribs and on our own, that we get to change something that we would want. Yet if the things we once believe still exists, wouldn't it be able to change it's form into something else?

Is it possible that whatever out comes shapes us into what we are today? for good or for worse, would we all be inside a system that is always changing it's form, until death to where we become the shape that once were, but reborn and remaining shapeless again?

[CedarMist]

I do not believe in any literal afterlife. Sometimes I wish I did, sometimes I think that would detract from this life.
I take the idea that you live on in the changes you cause quite literally. Taking reincarnation to metaphorical extremes, I believe that we are physically reborn in those creatures who consume us when we die. As for the "other" part of us, I think leave a part of ourselves behind in the changes we cause, and I also acknowledge that we are "reborn" in that something fills many of the gaps we leave (eg. Someone moves in to our house, gets our job, breaths 'our' share of air, etc). Both tying into the fact that everything we are is only borrowed.

[treegod]

CedarMist, I understand that totally. That's my view of "reincarnation" too

All the elements that make up by being are in a constant cycle; the cells, the molecules, the atoms etc. I am an incarnation (embodiment) of various natural processes that manifest themselves through me and as me and they all belong to different cycles, so there is a constant "reincarnation".

[shirley mclaren]

Whilst I am not decided one way or the other, I do get "visions" of myself from time to time standing on a high plateau, as a man, wearing a loincloth, with a staff, looking out over the Valley. The date 1922 always comes to mind.

BB

Shirley

[dvawlqos]

I know at least one of my PLs. I was a rather green samurai who was killed in my very first battle for a momentary mistake. What is weird about how I remember my death is that I felt ashamed of it. It wasn't so much like OMG I'm dying, but a sense of failing the larger cause.

[treegod]

Whilst I am not decided one way or the other, I do get "visions" of myself from time to time standing on a high plateau, as a man, wearing a loincloth, with a staff, looking out over the Valley. The date 1922 always comes to mind.

BB

Shirley

But that's MY past life :P

No, seriously, I did an visualisation exercise once, pealing away the "onion layers" of my personality, and one of the layers showed something nearly like that: a young man, not in a loin cloth but more Japanese style clothing with a mohican hairstyle and pony tail, with a staff, looking from some sort of "high place".

[DJ Droood]

Although I haven't had the dream in a long time, I still have a vivid memory of a dream that I occasionally had when I was very young...7 or 8....I am a man, and I am lying, dying, on a vast plane....something I would now think of as the Russian Steppe, perhaps...and two men on horses are riding slowly away...long tangly hair and lots of layers....and I feel very alone...

[mia]

My thoughts and beliefs on what happens after dying are a mixture of what I have learnt in meditation, what I have discussed and resonated with with others and what I have read and resonated with.
They are open to change as I learn and accept more.

My belief is when the body dies, the soul returns to source.
Source to me is somewhere where angels live (I believe angels are beings from another planet) there the soul is healed from all the trauma he/she has suffered in the life that has ended.
After a resting period, the soul is then offered another life if so wished.
Shown all the good and bad, the family, friends etc, everything.
This may be refused or accepted.

This life may be on another planet, not necessarily here.

I know of several of my previous lives.
One was on the planet Arcturus.
This is my favourite one, one I want badly to return to.
I astral there now and then and talk to a man who tends the 'forest' and 3 children.

My earthly lives have several of my family and friends in them, not related as they are in this present life.
I find reincarnation a very interesting subject.

[Miiranda]

Hi All,

Thanks for the interesting thread.

I would like to believe in reincarnation, however my experience suggests that I won't reincarnate in the way I might wish. The desire for reincarnation seems to be about the desire to have a sense of continued existence in some way. However, given that the majority of people (as far as I can tell) do not have memories of past lives, then it seems that these past existences are not experienced as continuing. In other words if I don't remember this life and identity in some future life then that would suggest that there is no sense of continued existence.

Hmm, I don't think I'm expressing this very well. If anyone else catches by drift maybe they can express it better.

Thanks for listening,
Miiranda.

[truthseeker]

This is a fascinating thread and something I have been thinking about a lot lately. Maybe it is something I will never resolve but I have never believed in heaven or hell. I have always felt that when I die my soul and energy would be dispersed into the air to combine with others and have influence over future beings of all sorts. Recently I have had experiences which have caused me to rethink and wonder. I have always felt that I was not living in a time frame that I was meant to live in so I'm not sure what this means. For some reason I have started a ritual (it feels that way to me) of braiding my hair. It is strange because I have never done this before in my life. I have just suddenly started to have the urge to do this. I close my eyes and start braiding and have what I can only think of as a memory of women sitting together and braiding each others hair for some sort of a ceremony. It is a very dim memory or maybe it isn't a memory at all but my subconscious applying something I've seen to what I am doing. I don't know but it has caused me to think.

Still searching....


Vicki

[Aemilius]

Hello all.... I'll just say that, like the original Druids, I believe reincarnation is real....

Don't know if any of you have heard of him, Dr. Ian Stevenson?

Wikipedia "Stevenson traveled extensively to conduct field research into reincarnation and investigated cases in Africa, Alaska, Europe, India and both North and South America, logging around 55,000 miles a year between 1966 and 1971. He reported that the children he studied usually started to speak of their supposed past lives between the ages of two and four, then ceased to do so by seven or eight (sounds a little like you DJDrood), with frequent mentions of having died a violent death, and what seemed to be clear memories of the manner of death. After interviewing the children, their families, and others, Stevenson would attempt to identify if there had been a living person who satisfied the various claims and descriptions collected, and who had died prior to the child's birth."

Here's a good interview (medium length) that helps shed some light on what may be happening....

http://www.anglamarke.com/interview

....unfortunately the answer to the question of why things are happening the way they are only becomes more elusive than ever after reading it.... Emile

[Muddy Fox]

Thanks for the links Amelilius, I too have had a long held belief in reincarnation and have read Dr Ian Stevenson's works before. I had a summer when I was about 15 years old of reading everything I could find on reincarnation, the other prominent author of this type of work is Dr Raymond Moody, I think I read his book Life afte Life about ten times. And apparently reincarnation, so I have read in alternative sources, was part of Christian teaching and the early church. I find all of it a fascinating area of study. I will explore the link in more depth later.