The Druids' Republic

[wolf560]

Anything can be manipulated... even red pencils...

We had an incident where the 'punch out' sections on certain papers would not properly punch out. The use of computers was to count the physical ballots not to actually have someone press the button to choose the politician they wanted.

It still comes down to the integrity of the ballot takers and the integrity of everyone around them above and below. Another favorite trick is to "re-district" allowing for more (or less) people to run for office and even to prevent some people from running.

I do hate politics in pretty much any form...

[Astrid]

I didn't want to embarrass you by mentioning you by name, but yes....

I appreciate the thought but i guess I'll just have learn to deal with being this gorgeous

OOH caught.

What your take on it be?

[/quote]

*Resist very shortly and half-hearted clearly interested in participating* My take on this is... that ill have to return and read the whole tread after 25 of may which is the day i turn in all my 3 exam projects, (And for those of you wondering yes this is an act of procrastination ) - until then i can't really give a good thought through answers so i would say the following!

The druid republic should contain a pleasure teaching retreat! Where all us poor over-worked burnt out self hating westerlings(mainly americans and north europeans) could learn how to enjoy ourselves without feeling guilty about the laundry we are skipping to do so (and for those of you wondering yes this statement might be affected by the fact that im reading through Eat - Pray - Love... again)

Thank you! that was my little pause show now please get back to your serious philosophical discussion

[Bart]

3 exam projects, (And for those of you wondering yes this is an act of procrastination ) -
a pleasure teaching retreat!

You'll do fine

[Bart]

We still need to decide on the style of government.

What about a stepped proces: the people are organised in guilds, the guilds vote (modern) democratically on thier representing elders. The elders form a council, which elects a primus inter pares, the pope who rule for now. And the council has thje power to elect a emergency chief, when called for. Only with limited power.

Still we have to be aware of the pigs. (all animals are created equal, but some are created more equal ....)

[DJ Droood]

The elders form a council, which elects a primus inter pares, the pope who rule for now. And the council has thje power to elect a emergency chief, when called for. Only with limited power.

I don't think we should simply turn over the keys to anyone with salt and pepper hair....I've met some unwise old people in my time...and I am well on my way to becoming an unwise old person. I think we should try to do away with agism, sexism and racism and let those who can, do.

Pope, eh?


A few things need to be clarified...how big is our community? Are there outside threats, or are we lost in the middle of nowhere?

[Myrde]

Let's assume, for sake of argument, our community is about 1000 people. 51% female, 49% male. 50% Children, 25% adults, 25% elderly.

For and even better scenario, lets just say that its a strange apocolyptic scenario of an unknown sort. Earth's features remain more or less the same. Overall populace has been hugely reduced. No nucleur radiation, winter, ect. If you want, think of it as the Earth I had pictured in my "Will they ever return?" post. Essentially, Earth getting a break and beginning to return to its natural state. There's still humans yes.

For our nice little thought game, lets assume that our community consists entirely of Druids, Wiccans, and Neopagans as a whole. Needless to say, theres a MASSIVE amount of different religious beliefs right there. Irregardless of, we've managed to band together, are have "landed" on some unknown land to begin anew. Though, this time, we're gonna try and do things right. We're gonna have to build and start everything from scratch. Imagine a bunch of nomads settling down.

If someone wants, we can scrap that scenario entirely if it detracts from the thought process I was originally going for. Just something to put it into perspective.

Btw, does anyone have any complaints, comments or add-ons to the system I stated earlier? Comeon, give me something....

[DJ Droood]

If someone wants, we can scrap that scenario entirely if it detracts from the thought process I was originally going for. Just something to put it into perspective.

no no, I like your premise...just needed to be spelt out to avoid going down the wrong path, like my trying to organize a wickerman burning of politicians, when there are none..yet...lots of priests about, though.....

[wolf560]

I think we could do this "from the ground up"; start it right and keep it going...

Further; notice I am not advocating the need for "Self-defense" or even Police

Let's look to Maslow's Heirarchy of Need and start there
Groups will form on their own around these things as each one is addressed so "Creating something will have to follow on these natural lines of interaction or they will not "mean anything to anyone" and will quickly fall apart as these needs are met and dealt with.

Example; If one person or group emerges as being able to provide ALL of the first echelon of needs, that group is far more likely to become "in charge" than any other group. that will last only so long as they can continue to provide what the populace requires in the second echelon or another group may emerge. By the fourth echelon of Maslow's needs being contemplated someone will have emerged who has the residing percentage of control over the other things. That person or group will be in charge regardless of any esoteric debates to the contrary.

If we "Druids" wanted to be in charge we would have to make sure that we were the ones providing as many of these "things" as possible before the second echelon of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs were addressed.

Physiological- Air, Food, Water, and Shelter

Air, water, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans. Clothing and shelter provide necessary protection from the elements.

Safety- Now that we are here, these things are needed to remain

Personal security
Financial security
Health and well-being
Safety net against accidents/illness and their adverse impacts

Love and Belonging- Human and social interaction and needs

Friendship
Intimacy
Family

Esteem- Self Esteem = Self Respect

People need to engage themselves to gain recognition or give a sense of contribution, to feel self-valued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

[Bart]

Let's assume, for sake of argument, our community is about 1000 people. 51% female, 49% male. 50% Children, 25% adults, 25% elderly.

Oh this won't do. We will end up with a retarded community. This inbreeding will have us stupid within 200 years.

If the rest of our species is wiped out, we need another source of fresh genetic material. We can go alien, or flash back reintroduce Neanderthals. The breeding with the tribe of Eve with the Neanderthals has kept us from reducing to blubbering idiots.

[Myrde]

Well, that actually depends hugely. Technically, inbreeding in harmless EXCEPT for when harmful genes begin to overlap. Negative recessive traits and such. Say you get something like a recessive trait for heart disease, and you mate with someone else with it. That trait will be more prominent with your offrspring.

Besides, 2 hundred years? *punches into a calculator* IF, and IF we decide to breed like bloody rabbbits, we'd only ne 12 generations in. Assuming each family has a steady 3 children... thats plenty of genetic material to work with. Tons actually, especially for safe breeding.

For sake of argument, let's assume, anyway, nobody (an impossible scenario) has any negative genetic traits. This is a hypothetical scenario. Can we get back to the thought experiment and stop nitpicking on stuff?

[Bart]

I think we could do this "from the ground up"; start it right and keep it going...

Further; notice I am not advocating the need for "Self-defense" or even Police

Let's look to Maslow's Heirarchy of Need and start there
Groups will form on their own around these things as each one is addressed so "Creating something will have to follow on these natural lines of interaction or they will not "mean anything to anyone" and will quickly fall apart as these needs are met and dealt with.

Example; If one person or group emerges as being able to provide ALL of the first echelon of needs, that group is far more likely to become "in charge" than any other group. that will last only so long as they can continue to provide what the populace requires in the second echelon or another group may emerge. By the fourth echelon of Maslow's needs being contemplated someone will have emerged who has the residing percentage of control over the other things. That person or group will be in charge regardless of any esoteric debates to the contrary.

If we "Druids" wanted to be in charge we would have to make sure that we were the ones providing as many of these "things" as possible before the second echelon of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs were addressed.

Physiological- Air, Food, Water, and Shelter

Air, water, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans. Clothing and shelter provide necessary protection from the elements.

Safety- Now that we are here, these things are needed to remain

Personal security
Financial security
Health and well-being
Safety net against accidents/illness and their adverse impacts

Love and Belonging- Human and social interaction and needs

Friendship
Intimacy
Family

Esteem- Self Esteem = Self Respect

People need to engage themselves to gain recognition or give a sense of contribution, to feel self-valued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Putting the genetic discussion aside, although not being happy with the reasoning flaws. For now I will only ask to review your biology again.

Maslow is a way to look at the matter. But Maslow aslo tells you that you cannot move to the second echelon if the first is not met. This applies on the personal note as well as the group. Any leader who will provide for food will have a food hold over the aristocratic second echelon. So any government should have the field taken care of, the river diverted and the wild animals scared away. Than we can move to part 2. Otherwise you decide to stop the Druids untill society is on its way. Of course being a cerebral excersise we can do so. But if we take 1000 super fit, no genetic flawed farmers and wait untill they settled, they will decide for themselves what government they want. And it is the job of the Druid to request favors on the first level. So I would strongly suggest to start our hails to mother earth and Birghid and who ever else for our fertile grounds.

[wolf560]

I think we could do this "from the ground up";

Let's look to Maslow's Heirarchy of Need and start there

Maslow is a way to look at the matter. But Maslow aslo tells you that you cannot move to the second echelon if the first is not met. This applies on the personal note as well as the group. Any leader who will provide for food will have a food hold over the aristocratic second echelon. ...

Exactly...!!!

That is EXACTLY why I suggested we look at Maslow...
As Druids, we would have to be active right from the very start, using our knowledge to help determine where the settlement should be... where are we getting our water from.... where are we starting our fields of crops... perhaps starting with a simple blessing as the fields are sown but not staying on just the Metaphysic/ Spiritual level. Once the first hierarchy is achieved then we would be the ones with the second tier already determined and ready to go as well.

Establishing ourselves as the "Go To People" so that as soon as any decision comes up the Druids are the first consulted and (hopefully) the primary ones either suggesting or actually deciding. The problem eventually lies in perceptions of who is in charge and even worse perceptions of power... "Power Corrupts" and of course "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". All it will take is for one Druid in the mix to reach for too much power or get caught abusing the power we Druids would (hopefully) have...

[dvawlqos]

*cackles as he rubs his hands together eagerly, a mad gleam in his eyes* I cannot believe I didn't think of this before! It's shere genius! How could I be so slow in coming up with this idea! And this is the perfect place to do it in!!!!

*coughs lightly* Sorry, perfectly sane now. Just got super excited. Ahem. By, any chance, has anyone here ever read Plato's Republic ? In the tale starring Socrates, he speaks with Plato's brother, Glaucon, and as a mental exercise, they devise the "perfect" city; a utopia if you will. Now, this is all philosophical thinking and wishful thinking, but do come up with a marvelous city.

Buuuuuuuut..... since we have so many Druids, philosiphers and Path seekers here, I thought, why not try the same mental exercise with my teachers here at OBOD!

Essentially, we'd plan out every detail; how it would be set up, what sort of government how would the community operate/survive, what would be taught, ect. However, I advise we start off small. Say, just for starting, we try to deicde of think out where would be the best place to build such a community/city/village/ect. Then, people critique, alter, add on, change things about what the person before them. The whole thing is to look at this from every logical view points and giving logical reasons why it would be beneficial or needed. So yeah, essentially the point is to start off on a small single point, and then branch out.

This would be so much easier if people read The Republic...

Dear Lord, I'm doing a horrible job of explaining this. I probably just ballsed it up by opening my mouth. Erm... who wants to start? Remember, start off very small!

Lord and Lady... I AM useless...

Ok.

First off, is the council (something like the Norse Thing) --- all adults past the age of full initiation may attend and will be allowed to bring up and resolve any issue within the community. Should the council become too big, we can devolve the concept to smaller units with each unit sending one member, and having local things to handle more local issues.

Above them is the Ard-Ri who will be responsible for two things protection and nuturance of the tribe. In essence something like a tribal father who acts much like a father in any family on the planet.

The Ard-Ri will be advised by a council of the highest ranking Druids of good character who will act as a permanent cabinet. The reason for having this group be unelected is to prevent the council from being currupted by the electoral process -- which leads to populism, party hucksterism, or toadyism. The individual druid in this council can be removed by a 3/4 vote of the Thing, but hopefully only in cases of curruption or incompetance.

I do thing that a bill of rights and responsibilities is a good idea, but I'll have to try to figure out what they are and how they work.

[Kalimadran]

Hmm your druid republic is a great idea in the sense that the best form of government that was ever proposed in my opinion was Camelot you had your king to unite the land and your common wealth / democracy also your defenders of the realm which would be the lords / representatives of sectioned off areas of the land these lords would represent the families that lived in there section of land. The lords themselves would be knights there sons would be knights. Now to ensure that corruption does not exist within your lords / representatives every 2 years the families under there control would hold an election process and elect a lord to represent there area of the realm. The king and would be selected from the current lords every 4 years and unable to serve consecutive terms but can serve any number of terms through out his life. Now as far as the realm goes the normal people that chose to live within its confines would have no need for money it would be a completely self contained and self sufficient community and would operate off a system of bartering thus eliminating the corruption that the money is well know for. Everyone would including the lords knights and the king himself would be subject to the law no one man is better than any other everyone is equal. Crime would be handled by the knights of the realm. Any man or woman has the right to go as far as there ambition can take them. For a kingdom or realm is nothing with out the people and the people are nothing with out a ruling body and representatives.
Kalimadran

[Bart]

Unfortunately, the story of Arthur is based on a Roman knight, displaced by his military service and found himself in Brittain.

How would you prevent the politics to come in. There is a huge opportunity for carreer civil servants to grab power.
Why should the sons of knights become knight and the king should be chosen. This smells like nepotism. If you are going communist, you should go all the way.
No money or possesion, why would anybody work? or steal? They tried this in Russia, without the prospect of acquiring more than your neighboor people do not work very hard.

Your society will become a police state under the ruling of the aristocratic knights. They are the only constant power and they control social life.

[Kalimadran]

I wasn't going for communisum per say more like a amusih commune with a democratic ruleing body the would be no needs or wants for anyone cause everyone has the ablity of a marketable skill that would benifit the communitiy and that they cpuld trade for goods that they themselves require the only way to prosper in a community like this is if the comminity itself as a whole prospers.

[Karl]

Hehe, I like this threat, here goes;

Talking Stick at all meetings, which should be arranged in a circular seating arrangement.

Any position where an individual holds power over others in the form of decisions to be made, etc should not have the chance to unfairly profit from that position; this is how I imagine the corruption creeps in. Can we make powerful positions unpaid (or at least a minimal basic wage), perhaps have a payment made to their children or a charity of choice based on the success of their role? Hopefully only people who have a passion for the role would want to take it on if there was no personal gain.

I would ask for a system of apprenticeship for children, that they learn the basics of language, mathematics, history maybe two days a week in school and spend the other three (or possibly a live in) with a 'professional' who would teach their skill (be it farming, thatching, boat-making, accounting, Web Design, etc.)

A ban on any evangelical relegion practice.

Encouraging people to be a self sufficient and economic as possible, ie to grow your own food and maintain your own car, (or horse?), not to end up with a society where economic growth is based on consumerism and borrowing (the road we're on will end up much like the BuyN'Large of Wall-E).

Freedom of information is a good idea too...

No preference to males or females in terms of ownership or wages, no restrictions on relationships in respect of same sex partnership, multiple partners, etc. (just please maintain decorum about it).

Would anyone be in favour of a 'managed' population? (No, I don't mean Third Reich style!) but in terms of it being general practice to try not to have more than two children per couple?

Actually this thread reminds me of a novel I had started writing back in college; basically the story of the two nations taking part in the war that is the game of chess. The Black country and the White country; neither being 'good' or 'bad' but as polar opposite as possible; one being a religio-government controlled society which is constricting yet stable and no-one goes hungry; the other freedom based, yet suffering from internal division and anarchy. Unfortunately I've never been able to come up with a good enough ending to bother finishing it...

[Til]

Interesting concept! So, some ideas about the last post in this thread.

Talking Stick at all meetings, which should be arranged in a circular seating arrangement.

Nice idea! Especially the idea of a circular arrangement. Everyone can see each other that way, and it seems more of an egalitarian arrangement. I don't like the way that our parliament (in the UK) has two opposing sides over a table. It re-enforces the idea of conflict, and taking a side, rather than legitimate debate for the benefit of the people they represent.

Any position where an individual holds power over others in the form of decisions to be made, etc should not have the chance to unfairly profit from that position; this is how I imagine the corruption creeps in. Can we make powerful positions unpaid (or at least a minimal basic wage), perhaps have a payment made to their children or a charity of choice based on the success of their role? Hopefully only people who have a passion for the role would want to take it on if there was no personal gain.

Hmm... I agree in principle, however, there are ways to profit besides wages and expenses. You'd need a really good, transparent system to make sure representatives weren't taking advantage of representing certain wealthy groups by championing their cause for profit.

I would ask for a system of apprenticeship for children, that they learn the basics of language, mathematics, history maybe two days a week in school and spend the other three (or possibly a live in) with a 'professional' who would teach their skill (be it farming, thatching, boat-making, accounting, Web Design, etc.)

This I don't agree with, though I do see the merits of such a system. I believe that education should do more than equip young people with the skills they need for work, however. A job is one part of life, and there's so much more to appreciate in the world, and in my humble opinion it takes more than a basic education to understand these. I'm all for apprenticeships, especially as I know several people who I'd describe as being painfully intelligent, but no good at academia. Having a more flexible education system is great, and I'd also like to see some allowance for people to change their minds!

A ban on any evangelical relegion practice.

Ooooh, are you sure? I get irritated by evangelists, I don't like having other people's opinions thrust at me, but maybe curbing the free speech of one group, even if we don't like what they're saying, is the start something we want to avoid? How about they have the right to tell me what they believe, and I have the right to tell them I don't care?

Encouraging people to be a self sufficient and economic as possible, ie to grow your own food and maintain your own car, (or horse?), not to end up with a society where economic growth is based on consumerism and borrowing (the road we're on will end up much like the BuyN'Large of Wall-E).

Yep, for sure that's a great idea.

Freedom of information is a good idea too...

Sure is! The freer the better!

No preference to males or females in terms of ownership or wages, no restrictions on relationships in respect of same sex partnership, multiple partners, etc. (just please maintain decorum about it).

Loving those ideas! No discrimination based on anything sounds like a nice world to live in!

Would anyone be in favour of a 'managed' population? (No, I don't mean Third Reich style!) but in terms of it being general practice to try not to have more than two children per couple?

Frankly, yes. The world is far too overpopulated, and not at all sustainable. The effects on the planet are pretty horrific. In my view that proposal is a very responsible way to deal with the overpopulation problem.

[Gallobhaí]

I disagree with Plato's Republic in a lot of respects. It is strictly hierarchical, structured for the left brained intellectual, authoritarian, eugenicist in nature, anti-family, forbids religion and lends itself easily to corruption by Tyrants, oligarchs and interests as can be seen historically.

I always envisaged a perfect society being holarchic. Having a State of Regions with one senator and say 14 ministers covering the needs of the region, and its exterior aid/dealings. The senators would meet in national assemblies and also oversee and vet the actions of the ministers. They would also act as adviser to the head of government. The head of government, being a democratically elected ceremonial Monarch of say 7 year reign, can only deal in foreign affairs, not regional, and acts as overseer of senators and vets senators.
The head of state however would be a document, a constitution protecting the rights and well being of all people and outlining the duties actions and laws of the state, head of government,senators and ministers.
Ministers would work in a constitutional library, wherein there is regional court, museum, gallery, library, forum and University would be located, so they, and the senator, would have access to intellectual, artistic, academic and legal advice from lecturers, students, thinkers and librarians.

The Senate would regulate the constitutional libraries and senators would have their own office in their region.
The assembly of senators would be in a capitol library where the head of government resides. This would house the assembled knowledge or all regional libraries, and a supreme court, and would be isolated (not in a populous area). The assembly should meet here once every two weeks spending the interim at their regional constitutional library.
The democratic monarch would live there with the keepers of the capitol library, and would entertain foreign and national guests on state matters.

Familiarity between senator and minister should be discouraged, and penalized, during their time in office.

The keepers of the constitutional libraries and the capitol library would, of course, be the role of druids. Highly educated and trained, impartial (not political or religious),intelligent and honorable.

Each region should have a savings, agricultural and commercial bank. Savings bank must be a national body which cannot operate in fractional reserve banking, agricultural and commercial may be private. These would be overseen by a minister (finance economics). Derivative and debt trading would be highly regulated to a point of near illegalization. Money would be backed by a commodity and not printed out of thin air.

Citizens can only be armed if they are trained and certified. This should be a mandatory training, unless it conflicts with religion or personal belief, as over generations all systems of government stray and devolve into Tyranny and the people have a right to stand and fight that Tyranny.

This all may appear hierarchical constitution->head->senators->ministers->people but there would only be one degree of separation as there would be no political parties and political donations would be outlawed unless from an individual or family.

Having no party politics, taking money out of politics, having one degree of separation between you and each of your representatives locally, massive regulations on 'casino banking' and having the means and ability to defend yourself from oppression all under the watchful eyes of impartial druids.

Holarchically the system would look like this:

Constitution________
I............................I
I...Head of Gov..........I
I..........I.................I..Senator
I..........I.................I..I...14 Ministers
I..........I.................I..I.......I
I..........I.................VOTERS OF A REGION
I..........I
VOTERS ALL OF REGIONS

One degree of separation between voters and all representatives with the final authority being the written document.
Constitutional holarchic democracy. or some better term....

...actually I just reread that... I think I've just described a modern version of the Kingdoms under the high King of Celtic Ireland?!