"Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Will » 20 Jul 2011, 22:50

Al Hakim wrote:"
There the scientist has spoken. It would be great if you could include the humanist's arts into your scientific realm...... could be able to combine both ways of knowledge. What do you think?

Al Hakim


Thank you Al Hakim. I think we can and must learn to do just that; perhaps by using a disciplined phenomenology of an individual's experience responding and relating to various humanist arts, media, activities such as specific works of visual art; songs; symphonies; ceremonies and on and on.

There are already academic groups already reporting some such thing; but perhaps not those of most interest and value to us. Individual phenomenology as an investigatory also has its detractors; but its the best defined and mot relevant discipline i know of at the moment. We might other method also. And phenomenology is just the beginning, a tool used to articulate the field of study. Then there is a lot of theory building and testing before you get to the useful part---the exercise of a powerful new tool or skill.

Science is hard work and requires much dedication focus and discipline. Few early investigators actually get to exercise the tools developed by their research. Werner van Bron lead the development of 20th C rocket science and saw his research enable the US moon landings; but he never rode a rocket himself.

We too may be required to forgo the full exercise of our own individual power if we are to more fully empower others. It can be a tough road to chose requiring discipline and sacrifice.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Will » 20 Jul 2011, 22:57

Nico wrote:[... perhaps I should knock on his door next time ;-).
. I would, he does sound like one with much of interest to discuss. Hopefully you can find someone willing and able to share his thoughts and expertise. Maybe he a forum he visits occasionally that we be worth following, though I suspect it would be in English. Sometimes I feel so limited being monolingual.posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&t=38554&p=413553#
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Al Hakim » 23 Jul 2011, 20:43

Will wrote:We too may be required to forgo the full exercise of our own individual power if we are to more fully empower others. It can be a tough road to chose requiring discipline and sacrifice.


Hi Will,
I think it was an excellent idea of to link discipline and sacrifice to humanist arts, too. Everyone who is dedicated to a certain job or philosophy should adhere by those principles. In philosophy and religious beliefs it means to consider thoroughly all possible aspects. Should one be forgotten, I would call the appropriate statement "scientific" if given with a logical theory. It is the old matter of thesis and anti-thesis. In druidry - I believe - we can accept every statement that is neatly and logically deducted.
In a foreign forum I rose the question today that science means to measure things but that it was spirit to invent the meters and gauges. So, what counts more?

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby joey_bernard » 28 Jul 2011, 14:31

Hi all. Sorry for only coming in here now. I just finished reading the second part of this article, and my only response is

AAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

<rant>
As someone with degrees in physics and computer science (not bragging, just giving my background so that you can see where I'm coming from) this is the one part of woo that I think gets the most visceral reaction out of me (aside from anti-vaxxers, but that's for a different reason). This is the same type of B.S. that's gets spouted by people like Deepak Chopra and his ilk. Let's just wrap whatever we are trying to sell (whether it is a book, workshop or just an idea) in some "sciency" words and people will just nod their heads and say "Yup, that's sounds good". I'm sorry if this whole little rant may seem harsh, but I agree with Nico, using these kinds of tactics is immoral and dishonest. If you have an experience and it is powerful to you, then accept it as it is. If you don't know why you had it or what caused it, then either accept that you don't know or search for a possible answer. But don't simply make one up and pass it off as the truth. I'm almost of the mind that the words quantum, electromagnetic, energy and waves should be trademarked and you should have to prove that you know what they actually mean before you are allowed to use them. Just the sheer number of wrong statements is mind-boggling. I'm going to go dig out the first part and post a breakdown on my blog. Once it is done, I'll post a link here for anyone that may be interested.
</rant>

I know the above may have seemed a bit harsh, and I'm not this much of a grump in real life. This is just something that really pushes my buttons.

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Explorer » 28 Jul 2011, 14:56

joey_bernard wrote:Just the sheer number of wrong statements is mind-boggling. I'm going to go dig out the first part and post a breakdown on my blog. Once it is done, I'll post a link here for anyone that may be interested.

I agree. I have posted some examples of proof that the astronomical claims are wrong somewhere in the beginning of this thread, maybe you have some use for that also.

joey_bernard wrote:I know the above may have seemed a bit harsh, and I'm not this much of a grump in real life. This is just something that really pushes my buttons.

I also make my living in the scientific community, and this article is an insult. Not only to truth and intelligence, but also the the scientific community and the druid community.
If non-druids would get their hands on this they would have proof that we harbor a bunch of lunatics. (we actually do, but I don't have to be happy with that).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby joey_bernard » 28 Jul 2011, 16:09

I saw your earlier posts Nico, thanks. I've used those as a jumping off point, but I'm upset enough to do a full deconstruction. That's why I'm doing it on my own blog. They are going to be fairly long and detailed, too much for a forum post. I will be putting links here, though, as I finish each section. I would strongly suggest those of a weaker constitution not bother going over. I plan on tearing apart all of the factual errors and logical errors that I can find. It's not going to be pretty.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby joey_bernard » 28 Jul 2011, 17:26

Something just occurred to me. Is it possible that the person writing these articles is pulling a "Poe"? That is, an intentional hoax?

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby joey_bernard » 29 Jul 2011, 02:25

OK. I've written responses to both articles over on my blog. I did not post them here so that there can be no complaining about being too harsh. If you don't want to see angry harsh language, simply don't click the links. If you want to see what I think, feel free to go and read it. But please, if you have comments, leave them over on the blog, not here. Thanks.

http://rationaldruid.blogspot.com/2011/07/talking-with-trees-part-1.html
http://rationaldruid.blogspot.com/2011/07/talking-with-trees-part-2.html

I'll post my thoughts on the third part when it comes out in the next Touchstone.

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Explorer » 29 Jul 2011, 07:06

joey_bernard wrote:OK. I've written responses to both articles over on my blog. I did not post them here so that there can be no complaining about being too harsh. If you don't want to see angry harsh language, simply don't click the links. If you want to see what I think, feel free to go and read it. But please, if you have comments, leave them over on the blog, not here. Thanks.

http://rationaldruid.blogspot.com/2011/07/talking-with-trees-part-1.html
http://rationaldruid.blogspot.com/2011/07/talking-with-trees-part-2.html

I'll post my thoughts on the third part when it comes out in the next Touchstone.

Joey


Well done! It is actually a relief to read this, you represent the sanity in druidry now. Thank you!
(have you thought about sending it in to Touchstone?).
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Lily » 29 Jul 2011, 08:26

joey_bernard wrote:It's not going to be pretty.


It's beautiful in its own right.
It's really good, better than I could ever have done (I get too angry and I lack too much of the physics).


I've completed my manifesto, which is not a deconstruction but the synthesis of a balanced opposite, and sent it to Touchstone.
joey_bernard wrote:<rant>As someone with degrees in physics and computer science (not bragging, just giving my background so that you can see where I'm coming from) this is the one part of woo that I think gets the most visceral reaction out of me (aside from anti-vaxxers, but that's for a different reason). </rant>

Homeopathy for me in addition to the anti-vaxers (well that shouldn't be a surprise for those who've been around here for a while)(did I mention I work with vaccines nowadays?).
I was thinking of adding my academic credentials to the touchstone article but I don't want to be a show-off either and it is irrelevant for the content of the piece.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby whitehorse » 30 Jul 2011, 18:22

Thank you for debunking and deconstructing that article. It is atrocious as you point out . I respect anyone's private personal experience (I love trees and walking in forests 'communing' with them myself), but if they wrap up their account of subjective experience in pseudo-scientific jargon (presumably to give it extra credibility) this will end up misleading more credulous folk. I look forward to Touchstone accepting the 'balanced reply'.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Al Hakim » 30 Jul 2011, 22:10

Hi to all scientific persons,
I understand and accept that you wish to defend your field of science. There is a nice book "Science is talking in parables only" by Duerr, in German, of course, which deals with the relation between religion and physics. It says that you should not just turn down another opininion with the argument of it being unscientific. The crucial fact for me is to finally try to combine scientific findings with philosophical athways, like druidry. Doing that I believe we need the scientist to explore nature and he who does so should be seo kind to explain his findings in nice and clear words. But no scientist should be so arrogant to believe he is the only person to be able to explain nature.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Lily » 30 Jul 2011, 23:37

Then no non-scientist should be so arrogant, perhaps, and take scientific language and do whatever he wants with it, Al Hakim?

Yes, someone can come up with something and just say he believes it. I can then say, "whatever, and merrily hop along.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Explorer » 31 Jul 2011, 09:22

Al Hakim wrote:It says that you should not just turn down another opininion with the argument of it being unscientific.


Nobody has done that.

Opinions are exactly that, opinions, subjective. Nothing wrong with opinions. Facts are something else, they are objective.
The flaw in this article is that opinion is sold as fact, and the author has gone out of his way to make it sound as factual as possible. Gently described, that is a clever way to sound convincing, less gently described it is misleading.
I don't like that style at all. It makes ignorant people even more ignorant and it only widens the gap between truth and meaning that we try to close as druids. But that is only my opinion, there are those who value 'feel good' more than truth. That is a personal choice.

But when he added research that never took place, facts that were never found, it became a lot worse than that. It became lying.
Tell me, how do you feel about lying?
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Bracken » 31 Jul 2011, 15:32

joey_bernard, I've just read your blog and :o
I can't understand why that is even in the Touchstone, unless it is to spark a heated debate.
The part that upset me the most was the horrible, victim blaming passage in the second part. It's typical new age bull.

Whilst involved in the 'laying on of hands' healing, I have had direct experience of how thinking can affect the body, from someone who cured themselves of cancer (confirmed by two check ups at hospital) to another who preferred to keep their physical problems as it generated much wanted attention from relatives.


This attitude towards the patient speaks volumes about the healer. "You didn't get better when I laid my hands on you and I have a ready made reason for that. It's your fault. There's something wrong with you. Otherwise my healing would work". God forbid I should ever fall into such judgemental hands. The whole tone is very manipulative, actually. It's just not helpful, or loving, or bloody positive.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Al Hakim » 31 Jul 2011, 22:09

There is a nice parable quoted by Duerr* from a Sir Arthur Eddington, a British astrophysicist, to say: There was an ichthyologist (fish expert) who wanted to explore sea life. Thus, he caught many a fish and came to the conclusions a) that a fish has got gills and b) that it must be bigger than 2 inches (which was the width of his net). Those rules were proved at every catch. He stated that everything smaller than 2 inches is not fish.

Science uses sort of a fishnet, too. That forms the framework of ideas, analyses, and assumptions. It is logical, says Duerr*, because our thinking is designed to "perceive an apple on a tree and to pick it when ripe and feed us but not to explane space or astrophysics. We should not be surprised that atoms seem to look like small apples to us, aand stars like bigger ones... because that is the only way we can illustrate reality."

Therefore I find it hard to dissect each scientific term that was - perhaps -wrongly used instead of seeing the idea behind. Tolerance was a druidic virtue, wasn't it?

Al Hakim

*Duerr, Hans-Peter: Auch die Wissenschaft spricht nur in Gleichnissen [Science is talking in metaphers (similes) only], 7 th ed., 2010, p.18ff.
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby DJ Droood » 31 Jul 2011, 22:21

Al Hakim wrote:Tolerance was a druidic virtue, wasn't it?


Was it? I don't know..are there stories of tolerant druids?
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Will » 01 Aug 2011, 04:26

Al Hakim, Thank you,

As you say, science is a fishnet used to create and capture the general at the expense of the particular. Much of our modern culture rests on the scientific foundation of general concepts because we have found them more useful than attending to the particular. Noting the individual particulars that make this fish or this apple a real, unique and particular part of our world, does little to help us know how to cook it. An apple gets baked, or eaten raw. A fish gets broiled or fried. In using science, we live in a conceptual consciousness, or we think conceptually. Its useful. We need not note the precise color or size or nature (LED vs incandescent) of the red light at the traffic intersection. See red--stop (at least in the US and the parts of UK I've visited :). We do, of necessity, live in a largely conceptual consciousness.

I simply don't have time to fully explore and acquaint myself with each and every traffic light I meet!

As an alternate to the conceptual consciousness of science, some authors recognize the notion of aesthetic thinking. In one explanation humans evolved out of aesthetic consciousness, leaving it behind during the paleolithic transition to neolithic agriculture. Conceptual consciousness is described as “retrograde” (c.f. Max Oelschlaeger, “The Idea of Wilderness” 21-22).

OK, call me retrograde, along with others, as a simple visit to Mr Google illustrates. While some of the more informative articles are available only by subscription, such a visit does inform as to the depth of interest (at least by some) in the notion of “aesthetic consciousness”; and illustrates that the kind of thinking that is going into developing, describing and applying an understanding of “aesthetic consciousness”.

One article (STOKROCKI, M. and SAMORAJ, M., 2003. The Green School as an Ecological, Aesthetic, and Moral Folk Experience in Poland. Journal of Cultural Research in Art Education, 21, pp. 44-44-59) “...is an exploration of the meaning of an ecological school experience..”. “ Its roots are in sociology (Bruyn, 1966), psychology (Merleau-Ponty, 1962), philosophy (Husserl, 1931), and phenomenology (Wojnar, 1978)". In a concluding sentance the authors write “Samoraj summarized, "As a consequence of recent political and social changes in the world, we need to think about new areas of education, for example education for living in communities, and education for cultural dialogue" .... At the root of the Green School experience is aesthetic consciousness without which the spirit may not survive".

"The spirit may not survive" Indeed. Can we do otherwise than join those working towards “education for living in communities, and education for cultural dialogue...without which the spirit may not survive”? While much of the current work on (that I've found) deals with “arts education” for elementary age students (5 to ~14 yrs); perhaps part of a druid life extends this notion into “adult education” and “life long learning”.

Another article, again reporting a primary level education experience suggests a similar direction (BIRT, D., KRUG, D.H. and SHERIDAN, M., 1997. Earthly matters: Learning occurs when you hear the grass singing. Art Education, 50(6), pp. 6-6).

“Learning occurs when you hear the grass singing”; indeed yes and the trees talking.

This may not be the exact direction research into a druid's experience might take, but at least it is starting line. A starting line, that is, if moving beyond the mediocrity of the "Touchstone” article. Joey did an excellent critique of the subject article (which, in my view was not worth the time to read).

How should a well written “Talking with Trees” article read? Need it address both the softer individual experiences reflecting “aesthetic consciousness”; and the harder, more objective experiences validated though science's “conceptual consciousness”? And yes there is objective scientific evidence that we do indeed talk with, or at least to trees. Perhaps not so much talking as yelling, screaming brutally, crudely, shouting obscenities; but we do talk to trees with every application of Agent Orange; with every clear cut harvest; with every orchard planted in tidy rows, pruned and force fed a petrochemical based plant food.

Humans may be largely indifferent to the subtleties of our chemical environment (except for our rather insensitive senses of smell and taste). Internally, we do depend both on a sophisticated chemical communication complex; and on the electrical communication network of nerves. Trees, as far was we now, depend entirely on their chemical communication complex for internal communication (and thought?). Externally, leaves and particularly roots are laden with sophisticated sensitive chemical sensors. Sensors into which we now shout who knows what obscenities with all the chemicals we release into the air, water and soils.

I wonder what a prescription antidepressant released into the soil translates into oakspeak. And that's only one (our) side of the conversation. We talk about tree huggers (I'm wearing my tree hugger t-shirt as I type:) If mommy must make it "feel better", along with the hugs come kisses (at least in my fam trad -- “..mommy kiss my boo-boo, make it better..”). Maybe more intimate conversation between trees and humans, at least based on what we think we know in "conceptual consciousness" requires acceding to the trees penchant for chemical conversation. Along with hugging that tree, maybe I'll need to include a few kisses (french? right on the leaves?). Or maybe I'm not yet ready to let ol Lady Oak know that much about me yet. Who knows what She'll think of me when She finds out about last night's extra stout? Acorn stew anyone?

Any one up for “blood brothers” with yonder Yew ?

Well, it is all just theory. No doubt in need of much further development; but that's how science, which is performed in conceptual consciousness works. Hash out a theory, then put it to the test.

Just a thought, Will
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Bart » 01 Aug 2011, 15:00

[quote="Lily"(did I mention I work with vaccines nowadays?).
[/quote]

Interesting, which part of the development your working on?
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Re: "Talking with trees" in July's Touchstone

Postby Lily » 01 Aug 2011, 15:44

clinical testing (in humans)
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