Knowing your place...

[damhbard]

Mentioning the heirarchy of OBOD. I think it takes a druid course ranked druid to start a new grove. But any ranking can start a seed group. Can someone shed light on this or correct me?

Hi!

This has been a fascinating discussion.

For the progression of the course I've always been told that each grade 'builds' upon the other. So the Bard becomes the foundation, and the Ovate builds on this. The Ovate is still a Bard too. The Druid is a Bard, an Ovate and a Druid.

I've always found the way the course works a great leveller - by using the format of a course that every member can follow means that there is no human being bestowing wisdom, the wisdom is drawn from us and our personal experiences of the course. This is also seed groups and groves work. The groups might be facilitated by certain people, and the members of the group will certainly learn, but it isn't the role of the facilitators to directly 'teach', that is what the Gwersi are for. The role of the group is for community and group experience.

And from my experience of facilitating a grove the main reason a grove requires two Druids is simply because a grove should be able to initiate into all three grades, and therefore needs at least two people who can do that for the members when, and if, they reach those points.

Peace
Damh

[Ben Wood]

Looking at the responses of this thread so far remind me very much of the Quaker Tradition of which I am also part. In Quakers we have Elders and other folk called 'weighty Friends' (not Quakers with a glandular problem!). Both these types are Quakers with pastoral and spiritual experience. There is no sense in Quakers that Elders are superior to non-elders in the sense of worth, only a tendency to perform particular practical functions. Neither are Elders or so-called 'weighty Friends' above and beyond the collective accountability of the Meeting indeed they are servants of the Meeting. I think a lot of this Quaker-process stuff can shine a light on some of the issues raised in this thread. The Druid, like the 'Weighty Friend' or Elder is not better than the Bard or Ovate but carries out a different function within the Circle, yet everyone is equally necessary.

[Merlyn]

Hi morgane_snowy_owl

Merlyn,
I hear you. It is very human to see things from a hierarchical point of view. When I grasped the celtic view of reincarnation, the progression from Annwyn to Abred in the Great Cauldron, my whole worldview changed. Going through the cycle, getting back where you started, but at the same time being different from who you were when you started because of all you have experienced and learned on your journey, is beautiful and feels right... not inferior or negative like so many people would see it (you're just going in circles!!!!). However, your mention of "spell casters" sounds... negative. Yet there is druid magic if I'm not mistaken (still not an Ovate! ). What makes you differentiate druidry from spell casting?

In your second post, you talked about "drui". What does that word mean to you?

I think life teaches us many difficult lessons, and we struggle to reason with them, work with our nwyfre and better our world, as much as ourselves. It is discouraging at times to be faced with antagonism, most definitely when it is from ignorance or disinformation. When indeed we complete our grades, we are challenged and the struggles this causes fill pages of posts here, lectures by adept drui, and even the pages of touchstone, druid circle and perhaps every drui organization. I think of those I have met, here and on-line (so many miles away) Damh and Donata, Philip and many more have blessed me with perspective. I however always need to take the first step and .. listen.
In some pagan circles, mostly fluffy :bunny: it is all about spell casting. I had to correct my own son, as in conversation I asked him if ne knew what Wicca is. He has grown with my druidry all of his life, respects it and knows it well. Yet, he still responded to my question in all they very wrong ways. Truth is he knows very little about Wicca, and so his lesson on that began straight away. We Drui are often mixed up with such misconceptions. It is important to ask, to be able to listen.

Drui.. This was one word brought to my attention very clearly by my always posting the word druid. To say I am "a" druid is really not the case. And as you noticed, your friend was able to take it out of context and unfortunately make things even more complicated rather than clear.

We can be gender specific, Druidess, and so on. I suggest to be more accurate in the sense of druidry to use the word Drui, when describing who and what you are and do.
We are after-all, forever in service and learning as a companionship. Drui, to me, is an active term. It is a way to say, I am actively on my path and thus there will never be an end to it. I think Damh explained this best, and as he is now PenDragon as time has passed, seems to express this part of the druid way, better than I.

My cycles are still in motion, and I have gone far in my directions, but have just as far to go before coming full circle. Each of us will be different in this. And that is completely normal. As I read in the March edition of Touchstone, our ability to share and gently kindle the nwyfre and the light body is the most important act of being Drui. The rest is as it comes to us in each of our own unique lives.

That is what has made the work of the OBOD such a good thing.

In light,
Merlyn

[Aoife]

Wouldn't all forms of current druidry be considered Neo-Druidry? The revival is fairly recent as far as history goes and according to The Book of Druidry by Ross Nichols the rumor of druids among "recent society" goes back to the early 1700s. We all assume that druidry was practiced in secret because it was considered pagan so people who practiced before that (like in the 1500s or 1600s) were not included in the book that I have. These predecessors of the now long deceased druids were probably more secretive than the ones shown in this book.

I am not a druid yet and have not yet finished my research before I decide to walk the path and so I ask this as a question so that I may learn.

I guess....how do we know that what these people that passed down druidry to US are "doing it right?" I mean, what if they just tried to salvage it as best they could? If this is correct wouldn't we all druids be neo-druids?

And if not...is there really such a distinction between neo-druids and druids who are living in today's world? Is one more "druid" than the other or something?

[treegod]

I make a distinction between what I call Ancient Druids and Modern Druids.

Then there are three distinctions made by Isaac Bonewits, the paleo-druids (Ancients Druids), mesa-druids (revival druids) and neo-druids (not sure who it includes, but it's more modern than the "mesas").

[Aoife]

So essentially anyone coming after the revival druids is considered neo? I don't really like the term "neo-druid" it kind of suggests that we're following pagan beliefs that we don't fully understand. I say this because the younger generation tends to want to be 'different' and that means rejecting main stream religions. In my high school there was a group of people who called themselves "wiccan and druids" and from what I've learned from druids so far they couldn't be further from the truth! These kids were essentially goth and hated all the "conformists" (very similar to today's emo kids) and claimed that they drank blood (but never said where they got it from) and held candle light vigils in graveyards to commune with death. All in all they were simply using the term wiccan and druid to sound "cool."

This was my first impression of neo-druids and wondered if many of these so called druids were this way. Since educating myself I have learned that most are not like these kids. However, people like these do give any sort of "pagan following" a bad name.

[DaRC]

So essentially anyone coming after the revival druids is considered neo?

Well yes(-ish) when druids are discussing these matters it seems that the term neo is used. However, to the outside world Druids is enough IMO but I've never been one to talk names or titles.
I prefer to walk the walk.

[treegod]

When looking at the historical distinctions terms like paleo/meso/neo-druidry are useful distinctions. But for "neo-Druidry" to describe my path as I live it now? Not necessary.

I think the difference between modern meso and neo druids, according to Isaac Bonewits, is the the meso-druids correspond to revivalists and neo-druids correspond to reconstructionists. In which case OBOD would correspond to meso-druids, since its tradition and members aren't exclusively "pagan reconstructionist", although some members are, I believe.

Psychologically I think it is impossible to "reconstruct" cultural psychological structures of cultures long dead, no matter how much academic research you do and no matter what beliefs you adopt from pre-Christian tradition, we all have a Christian/post-Christian psychology to deal with, in a way making any modern druids meso-druids. It's our psycho-cultural structure, which goes deeper than reconstructionist research.

Here's a link explaining a bit about the differences between paleo, meso and neo-paganism: http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html

The term I use, Modern Druids, includes both meso and neo druids. Less messy for me to use or define, lol

[jmalzone]

I would agree with that treegod. I also use the term Modern Druid...I feel it's all encompassing. There are those who do make clear distinctions in their path, but for me, I like to stay away from black and white distinctions.

Good post.

[fulbert-avebury]

Quite an interesting thread that I wanted to add my voice to . . .

I used to be a traditionalist (fundamentalist) Catholic, and I spent all sorts of time trying to clearly define and distringuish this or that. I came to realize that spending all of this energy trying to define and classify things and people used all my resources without really getting me anywhere. It did not help me spiritually or be a better person or do any good for anyone. If anything, it tended to exclude and divide. These habits are hard to break, though I find that the less prescriptive I become, the happier I am. It is not my position to try to defend (protect? control?) this or that tradition. If you want to split hairs, fine. If you don't like my perspective, fine. We Trying to let this roll over me helps me not to get bogged down.

In this spirit, given how personal druidry is, I do not give much thought to the grades in OBOD (your place, as others have alluded to). I do not think of myself as a bard or ovate (just a strange term to me) or druid in the sense of one grade or another. Perhaps one day I will work on the transition from Bardic to Ovate, but that is not really for today. As there are no groves anywhere near me, do these levels really make a difference to me in practice? I consider myself a druid, and am not too concerned if others challenge that level or grade or path or community. I have been in those places before, and just cannot trouble myself with them at this point in my life.

Granted, I am moving this from the original intention of this thread to the grades in OBOD, though I do at times sense that perspective of class and all that come with it. I suppose this may play a role in many systems or communities, though I find yet again that the more I become enmeshed in the politics, the more of a challenge it will be to enjoy the reasons that brought me to the community in the first place.

Jeffrey

[RedSky]

well spoken. You sound like a man who is at peace with himself and unless I'm mistaken, isn't that the goal? inner peace?

Best Regards

Redsky

[Heddwen]

It never ceases to amaze me how hung up on titles and self important roles some are, the lack of hierarchy in OBOD coupled with the addressing of the ego surely moves some way to debunking these self serving roles. I see no difference here in the OBOD grades either, Jeffrey.

[athelia143]

Hi!

And if there is no hierarchy per se, why do people traditionally start as bards, then as ovates, and then as druids, why not choose the area of knowledge you want to start with? I don't disagree at all, I just want to really grasp the logic behind it. If I say I'm an "OBOD", people just don't understand what I'm talking about.

It didn't take long: a friend of mine, who did her training in the scottish tradition long ago, who was initiated "ban-drui" in that tradition, and who is very keen on reminding me that OBOD is NEO-druidic and not druidic, responded to my calling myself "druidess" by calling me "mabinog". She wanted to remind me that I'm at the beginning of the path and probably found me arrogant to call myself "druidess". She's very watchful for that kind of thing, and is determined to make me transcend my ego because she loves me, and I'm thankful for that. But...

It was humiliating (she did it in front of fellow pagans, as she often does), and I certainly don't want to create that kind of misunderstanding in the future with her or with other people. I want to embrace my identity with humility as part of the druidic (of neo-druidic, boy it's complicated) tradition. Without shocking people.

Any suggestions?

On another topic: we also had a discussion a few weeks ago about how much tension there is, according to her, in the druidic tradition right now. She said it is THE tradition that is the most unstable right now, because of that. She is also a rosicrucian, and apparently it happened to that tradition in the near past, and there were lots of quarrels and tensions and jibes about how things should be.

Namaste

Morgane Snowy Owl

Hi Morgane,

Reading your post, I am a little concerned with this friend of yours who is chastising you. What she said to you and the way she has said it (in front of other people and making you feel humiliated) borders on abusive or at least very rude behaviour in my opinion. She seems to be more focused on titles and perhaps making herself look more experienced and perhaps better than you because of her new title of Ban-Drui (which just means "female Druid", by the way. Same as "Druidess".). She might have said to you in private: "Since you are still at the start of your path, you may want to avoid calling yourself a "Druidess" and perhaps say that you are studying modern Druidry instead." I don't know the whole story, so I'll leave it at that. I'm just going on what I've read in your post and what she did rubs me the wrong way.

Also, OBOD is not exactly Neo-Druidic, even though it is modern. It is based on the Druid Revival, which Isaac Bonewits would have called "Meso-Druidism". (See here for more details: http://www.neopagan.net/Contents.html#PartTwo) OBOD is only one of many Druid organizations around the world. All of them have their own systems of teaching. Some other Modern Druid organizations, such as ADF (http://www.adf.org), do not even have a system that includes the titles "Bard", "Ovate" and "Druid". ADF has a pretty extensive training system for Dedicants and Clergy. In my grove, "Bard", "Ovate" and "Druid" are not grades, they are specialties. There is one course to get people started, and they can then specialize in whichever of these disciplines interests them. Someone who is interested in music, history, etc., might specialize as a Bard while someone studying medicine, psychology, divination, or who is wanting to work with various aspects of the Otherworld might be drawn to specializing as an Ovate. One is not higher nor more advanced than the other.

With regard to your two questions:

1. In OBOD, "Bard", "Ovate" and "Druid" are three grade levels with Bard being the first one. Just like in school, you start with the first grade and work your way up. It's not a hierarchy per se, but a grade system. People in the Druid grade have been through all three levels of the training course. That does not mean that everyone has to go through all three levels and it doesn't make one any less of a person if they don't go all the way to Druid. There are some limitations about starting groves and such depending on the grade, but for the most part it's not a hierarchy.

When explaining what you're doing to others, in order to prevent confusion, you might say: "I am studying Modern Druidry with an organization called the Order of Bards Ovates and Druids." or "I am beginning my studies toward becoming a Druid because I am called to the Druid path."

2. Druidry being "THE tradition that is the most unstable right now" - Really? I wouldn't say so. Modern Druidry is very diverse, that is true, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it unstable. One of the tenets of Modern Druidry is "to seek the Truth against the world", which I take to mean that each person on the Modern Druid path seeks Truth (whatever that might be) while walking that path, not just take someone else's word for it. The OBOD Bardic course is set up in a way that it is supposed to help you find that Truth for yourself, which I think is the cornerstone of any decent training as a Modern Druid. ADF is very similar as are many other groups offering training. I am actually very wary of those groups that teach things their way and that things must be done their way and only their way! One of the most beautiful things about Modern Druidry is that each Druid's search for Truth will take them in different directions. There are some similarities, which are what make us Druids and not something else entirely, but each Druid is free to think, have an opinion and develop their spirituality. Therefore, not every Druid will agree with certain things! Debate brings growth and learning, which is also a cornerstone of Modern Druidry, IMO.

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. Wishing you all the best as you start on your journey!

Athelia /|\

[Canu Taliesin]

I think you're doing just fine. It's good to be challenged like that, she did you a favour whether she knows it or not.

[Aemilius]

[nightfire]

By the way, I'm not a Druid because I'm a member of OBOD or any other Druid tradition. I'm a member of OBOD because I'm a Druid and want to be a part of a like-minded community. I was born a Druid and I will die a Druid.

<sigh> Exactly... Thank you.

Nightfire
aka Julie