Druidry and Reconstructionism

[TRAKER]

Hello everyone.
I have recently stared the course and I have a question brewing. What are the OBOD's views on Celtic Reconstructionism?
I would be very interested in incorporating a bit of CR into my Druidism but I am not sure where to start. I have already decided that my ideal Druidry is a mix of OBOD and ADF, but any advice you can give would be good.
Any books or web sites would be very helpful.
With thanks and blessings.

[treegod]

Hello everyone.
I have recently stared the course and I have a question brewing. What are the OBOD's views on Celtic Reconstructionism?
I would be very interested in incorporating a bit of CR into my Druidism but I am not sure where to start. I have already decided that my ideal Druidry is a mix of OBOD and ADF, but any advice you can give would be good.
Any books or web sites would be very helpful.
With thanks and blessings.

I don't know if there is an official OBOD view on Reconstructionism, but I can certainly try to explain it from my point of view.

The course itself is not reconstructionist. It's roots are the Druid Revival (revivalist not reconstructionist) and also occidental occultism. Mix in some Celtic scholarship and modern psychology, and that's more or less what the course is.

But I think the course is actually more about personal work, and not about meeting the standards of the Order, so if you happen to be drawn to more Reconstructionist stuff then you are free to do so. There are Pagans, Wiccans, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, amongst others, within the Order, and they can all freely mix their own beliefs and practices with OBOD practices (not beliefs, it doesn't really have much of a belief structure I think).

Take a look at this article, it might enlighten you further :ADF and OBOD

[DJ Droood]

The course itself is not reconstructionist. It's roots are the Druid Revival (revivalist not reconstructionist) and also occidental occultism. Mix in some Celtic scholarship and modern psychology, and that's more or less what the course is.

It is interesting to compare an older version of the course with a revised version...you can see the positive influence of the relevant parts of "reconstructionism" improving the historical accuracy and attention to scholarship. Personally, I find "reconstructinsm" as a spiritual path sterile and pointless, but you can usually take some good from everything....properly cited sources are a gift.

[DaRC]

Yep agreed DJ Droood - I too think that reconstructionism has brought some historical discipline into the fold.
I've always found articles of interest on the imbas website http://imbas.org/

However, the reconstructionist approach doesn't work for me for various reasons probably the main one being I'd have deny part of my heritage as a typical european mongrel who comes from England.

[wolf560]

However, the reconstructionist approach doesn't work for me for various reasons probably the main one being I'd have deny part of my heritage as a typical european mongrel who comes from England.

Does the Druidic Reconstructionist operate with the belief of British Druids only?

With all the work on the La Tene and Hallstadt period Celtic studies, I thought that the Celts were a much broader base. Is some group saying that Druids existed only in Britain then?

Just curious as I thought with the Celts spread from Turkey to Ireland, from Spain and Italy to possibly as far as Scandanavia, that the Druids could be said to have occupied at least some (if not most) of those lands.

Or is the Druid (sub. Celtic) Reconstructionists belief something else entirely.

[DJ Droood]

Does the Druidic Reconstructionist operate with the belief of British Druids only?

With all the work on the La Tene and Hallstadt period Celtic studies, I thought that the Celts were a much broader base. Is some group saying that Druids existed only in Britain then?

I am familiar, irl, with someone who practices some type of Baltic reconstructionism. (I've never actaully met a Celtic reconstructionist in the flesh..they only seem to exist, ironically, on messageboards.)

If I was so inclined, I would be most interested in some sort of Neolithic reconstructionism...I just ordered a book called "Deep Ancestors: Practicing the Religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans"..maybe I'll start sacrficing to Deiwos if it is any good....

I think for me the underlying weakness of "reconstructionism" (as a spiritual path, as opposed to simply researching) is that it is backwards looking, seemingly as fantasy/escapist based as any "Atlantian" druidry...many apologies if I offended any CRs, but that was my experience with it, and I did go through a phase. It seems to deny the way the world is now...our modern culture and our experience in it, and sort of glances wistfully back to some long ago time when things were somehow better. On-line champions also seem to foster a humoursly undeserved "elitist" attitdue as well, which makes me glad they don't seem to be a presence in real life druidry...in fact, I'm not really sure they could be seen as part of a druid tradition..they seem to be something other..probably something they themselves are happy about.

But as I said before, I do appreciate the ethos of scholarship, and as part of my druidry is trying to understand my ancestors, I have found some of the tools of reconstructionism to be useful...I also think they helped with druid fashion...I've always liked historical re-enacting and authentic costumes.

(DJ prepares to be run over with a battle chariot)

[wolf560]

(DJ prepares to be run over with a battle chariot)

LOL

I have often thought that if we could understand the "Why" behind our Druidic forebears that we might be able to translate their beliefs into modern practice. As an example, I have often read that "...the Celts believed everything happened in Three's..." If the Druids were in fact Celts, and the Celts were wrapped up around the number Three then I would think that Druids would have been as well.

This is my anchoring thought as to how many elements I am comfortable with. If I had kept finding references to "Seventeen", I might have gone looking for Seventeen elements (LOL).

(do not fear for battle chariots.....I put fresh apples in the grass for the horses so they'll get hungry and stop for a bite)

[Fiacharrey]

I have debated entering into this discussion, but it seems my input might have some value to people here. I am a CR. And I do exist in the flesh, as some here can attest to.

I discovered CR after I had joined OBOD and found it to be a much better fit for me. It satisfies a spiritual need in a way OBOD can't.

Following CR does not require some kind of pureblood pedigree. It does not require one to deny their heritage in any way.

As for it "looking backward," I am not offended. We do look to the past, obviously. We feel there is value and wisdom in the ways of our ancestors. We give honor to those ancestors by remembering them and learning from them. I have not observed any "reality-denial" amongst CR's, though I have with Gaelic Traditionalists. Of course, "your mileage may vary."

[DaRC]

When I said deny my heritage I probably didn't mean it quite as it's been read...

when I was young I was brought up thinking that we, in the UK, we're all British (not in any Nationalistic way) then I went to college and played Rugby with a lot of Welshmen, my friends, who 'educated' me that I was English and introduced me to all the tribal rivalry that came with it. However, I also have strong links to my Celtic heritage via Cornwall (although there's also Scotland, Spain, Germany, Norman etc... thus creating the european mongrel). This Cornish Celtic link has informed much of my Spirituality.

Culturally though I'm English (once again NOT in any far-right jingoistic xenophobic way) and work with the Heathen gods of the land where I live - Woden, Thunor, Ingvi-Freyr, Frijja, Nerthus et al. Within the landscape you could argue (and believe me I've tried) that Taranis is the Celtic version of the A-S Thunor where the Norse is Thor. But each cultural filter makes nuance changes that are important; just as language is important to cultural survival. So working with Taranis is not quite the same as working with Thunor etc....

To be a Celtic Reconstructionist I feel it would effectively mean having to commit to my Celtic spiritual heritage at the expense of my English cultural heritage. I can't do that and so prefer to walk between the two paths. OBOD allows the freedom to reconcile the cultural, spiritual and genetical diversity that many of us in the modern world have.

[DJ Droood]

My Celtic credentials are solid on my mother's side, but I am an American mutt on my paternal side....the family name and history just blossomed all at once on the shores of Connecticut, although dna testing would indicate I am "Germanic", quite probably Saxon. But while I *understand* the value of researching the religions of our ancestors, I don't *feel* the spiritual necessity to imitate it..inspire me, yes, but it just seems like a strange notion to "reconstruct" something that has already happened...and I find the paradox of trying to faithfully reconstruct an oral-based spiritulity from written sources, either ancient observations or modern interpretations of finds, too hard to wrap my mind around. There is also the matter of being an ocean away from the "fatherland" that I presume the original spirituality sprang from. I was stimulated intellectually by reconstructionism, but not spiritually.

Again, these are my own limitations, and if it works for you,

[treegod]

However, the reconstructionist approach doesn't work for me for various reasons probably the main one being I'd have deny part of my heritage as a typical european mongrel who comes from England.

Does the Druidic Reconstructionist operate with the belief of British Druids only?

With all the work on the La Tene and Hallstadt period Celtic studies, I thought that the Celts were a much broader base. Is some group saying that Druids existed only in Britain then?

Just curious as I thought with the Celts spread from Turkey to Ireland, from Spain and Italy to possibly as far as Scandanavia, that the Druids could be said to have occupied at least some (if not most) of those lands.

Or is the Druid (sub. Celtic) Reconstructionists belief something else entirely.

This could get confusing... but I'll try to oversimplify.

Some Celtic Reconstructionists don't go for the "Druid" thing because the Druids were the priesthood and they don't yet want/need a priesthood or trying to reconstruct a priesthood might be seen as a bit false or something.

Now I'm guessing that some Reconstructionists that concentrate on local Celtic traditions and tribes, but again not necessarily the Druidry aspect.

ADF I think don't just do Pan-Celtic but also anything Indo-European. The have reconstructed a priesthood, with training. Doubt it resembles anything EXACTLY like it was though.

The Henge of Keltria is an offshoot of ADF, apparently of people not happy with ADF's openess to the Indo-European and wanting to concentrate on the Celtic (not sure if a specific Celtic or Celtic in general).

I have access to a Celtic Reconstructionist board on Beliefnet, if you don't mind maybe I can take these questions there, see what the response is?

[DJ Droood]

ADF I think don't just do Pan-Celtic but also anything Indo-European. The have reconstructed a priesthood, with training. Doubt it resembles anything EXACTLY like it was though.

The Henge of Keltria is an offshoot of ADF, apparently of people not happy with ADF's openess to the Indo-European and wanting to concentrate on the Celtic (not sure if a specific Celtic or Celtic in general).

ADF obviously learned from OBOD that a "Big Tent" means more people at the party.....the more specific (read exclusionary) you are in what you officially embrace, the fewer people you have to play with.

[wolf560]

I have access to a Celtic Reconstructionist board on Beliefnet, if you don't mind maybe I can take these questions there, see what the response is?

That would be AWESOME..... after so long studying Druidry I can honestly say that I have made more progress in the past 90 days than in the past 8 years.

So Thank You one and all

[Fiacharrey]

To be a Celtic Reconstructionist I feel it would effectively mean having to commit to my Celtic spiritual heritage at the expense of my English cultural heritage. I can't do that and so prefer to walk between the two paths. OBOD allows the freedom to reconcile the cultural, spiritual and genetical diversity that many of us in the modern world have.

Ah, I see what you are saying. I tend to think of CR a bit expansively, forgetting the "Celtic" part, and focusing on the "reconstructionist" part. I am primarily a member of ADF, though, which has a more reconstructionist focus than OBOD does, but is also Pan-European in scope. It does tweak some CR's who do, indeed, tend to have sticks up their butts. (Some people say I'm not really CR, I think, because the stick up my butt isn't big enough.)

ADF I think don't just do Pan-Celtic but also anything Indo-European. The have reconstructed a priesthood, with training. Doubt it resembles anything EXACTLY like it was though.

The Henge of Keltria is an offshoot of ADF, apparently of people not happy with ADF's openess to the Indo-European and wanting to concentrate on the Celtic (not sure if a specific Celtic or Celtic in general).

I have access to a Celtic Reconstructionist board on Beliefnet, if you don't mind maybe I can take these questions there, see what the response is?

Henge of Keltria had a few other problems with ADF's approach, including the focus on public ritual. (I've been a member of Keltria, too.)

I've been on the Beliefnet board, but it's been a long time. Back then, it was very much the home of the sticks-up-their-butts. I find the Imbas public list a good place to go for information and guidance.

[Fiacharrey]

ADF obviously learned from OBOD that a "Big Tent" means more people at the party.....the more specific (read exclusionary) you are in what you officially embrace, the fewer people you have to play with.

Bingo.

Well, I don't think that they necessarily got the idea from OBOD, but yes, they have a big-tent approach which works well for them. After much wondering around, looking for a place to call my "spiritual home," I came back to ADF largely because of that open approach. A vibrant community requires something of a critical mass of people, which ADF has.

[wolf560]

... a "Big Tent" means more people at the party...

Yes and this is why I finally came back to the ADF as well.

... A vibrant community requires something of a critical mass of people, which ADF has.

I could not agree more, the more we can openly meet and discuss things I think the more there is to learn overall. The ADF seems to definitely have that "Critical mass".

[DJ Droood]

Well, I don't think that they necessarily got the idea from OBOD, but yes, they have a big-tent approach which works well for them.

yea, true..before the internets, I knew of ADF and was a member, and although I knew about the OBOD, it seemed too remote and exotic until the maturation of the www. OBOD and ADF seemed to grow up at the same time, so they probably borrowed a lot from each other. I think ADF probably influenced the OBOD in many positive ways. (like scholarship)

[leaves]

Another good source of Celtic Reconstructionism is the CR FAQ: http://paganachd.com/faq/

My personal take on the reconstructionists is that I know I am not one in terms of trying put reconstructionism into practice; however, I truly appreciate all the work that the recons have done to really find out the truth about history and elder cultures and bring that to light - for me historical accuracy is important (even though I may not like certain parts of it and parts of it are not appropriate for modern times).

The difficult and most fascinating aspect of reconstructionism for me is the aspect of worldview. I'm not sure about the Celtic recons, but some of the Germanic/Heathen recons have done some really good work in addressing worldview (google Bil Linzie if interested). Worldview is very specific to culture and for the most part we are unconscious of it. "Culture shock" is what you experience when you go to a foreign land and realize not everyone apprehends reality, interacts with other people and the world, in the same way you do - what's underneath all that is worldview. So what is easy to miss is that pre-Christian cultures had a very different worldview than our modern one - when you study this in depth, the differences are quite interesting and worth learning about, I think, and some of the aspects of those ancient worldviews I think could be of value to the evolution of modern Druidry. I've just started the Bardic course, and I am glad that changes have been made to keep with historical accuracy.

[wolf560]

CR FAQ: http://paganachd.com/faq/

Awesome website, thanks..!!!

A lot of good reading, and nice to see they had a Gaelic word for "the study of Irish Paganry" PAGANACHT..... very very kewl..

[dvawlqos]

Does the Druidic Reconstructionist operate with the belief of British Druids only?

With all the work on the La Tene and Hallstadt period Celtic studies, I thought that the Celts were a much broader base. Is some group saying that Druids existed only in Britain then?

I am familiar, irl, with someone who practices some type of Baltic reconstructionism. (I've never actaully met a Celtic reconstructionist in the flesh..they only seem to exist, ironically, on messageboards.)

If I was so inclined, I would be most interested in some sort of Neolithic reconstructionism...I just ordered a book called "Deep Ancestors: Practicing the Religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans"..maybe I'll start sacrficing to Deiwos if it is any good....

I think for me the underlying weakness of "reconstructionism" (as a spiritual path, as opposed to simply researching) is that it is backwards looking, seemingly as fantasy/escapist based as any "Atlantian" druidry...many apologies if I offended any CRs, but that was my experience with it, and I did go through a phase. It seems to deny the way the world is now...our modern culture and our experience in it, and sort of glances wistfully back to some long ago time when things were somehow better. On-line champions also seem to foster a humoursly undeserved "elitist" attitdue as well, which makes me glad they don't seem to be a presence in real life druidry...in fact, I'm not really sure they could be seen as part of a druid tradition..they seem to be something other..probably something they themselves are happy about.

But as I said before, I do appreciate the ethos of scholarship, and as part of my druidry is trying to understand my ancestors, I have found some of the tools of reconstructionism to be useful...I also think they helped with druid fashion...I've always liked historical re-enacting and authentic costumes.

(DJ prepares to be run over with a battle chariot)

i understand that, but I think any religion needs some sort of grounding in the historical cultures that it came from. i think that's one of the reason people start to abandon their religions when it gets hard -- there aren't any real roots, just a bunch of self-selected platitudes that don't answer the really tough stuff. It's one of my bugaboos about a lot of wiccans and neopagans -- if everything is love luck and lolipops, then what do I say to someone who is dealing with the really rough stuff in life -- a murdered child, homelessness, rape, etc. The notion that you are somehow choosing this -- I dunno, I think that's really cruel to put that on someone who greaves for a dead baby or who just got kicked out of his house. The older faiths grew up in ages where life was hard and you never knew when disaster might strike or you might be invaded, or when your crops might fail.

Recons do get a bit big headed at times. i stopped hanging around them when I realised that most of the time it was about deciding whether group x or y was recon enough. Nothing that was not 100% authentic was ever good enough for them, and they never really seemed to grasp the idea that at one point the choices made on how to do a ritual were based on practical considerations or some priest's ideas about a good ritual. These things were done by real people and fit the environment.