deer skull ? what was that about in the forests ?

[Kwibus75]

Hello,

Last week i was walking through the forest in South-Wales. I was on holiday there and all of a sudden we stood in a place were there were hanging a lot of deer skulls and there was also on the ground a deer without a head. As i also was reading the book the mist of avalon (bradley) at that time. In the book you get information of a ceremonie where the royal deer dies at about LUGHNASADH.
I can tell that my children were really afraid of the skulls, could'nt sleep anymore at evening. I must say the picture is still in my thoughts too.
Can somebody tell me if that was something of a pagan thing, can somebody explain what it all is about or was it the work of a lunatic and i'm i a bit confused and mixing it all up. It was like the devil had been there, but maybe that is my christian influence who's playing a trick on me.
Blessed be form a beginning bard,

Vero

[Reyna]

That is strange.

On the family farm there is a place where we would normally hang game to skin and prep for butchering and we'd often leave the heads and legs there. Usually the dogs would grab a snack but over the years it did get to look like quite a boneyard (we also butchered livestock there). Is it hunting season in your area? It seems weird there would be a whole deer without a head though. Was it fresh or rotting?

That sounds like a spooky experience. Hopefully there is an innocent explanation. *hugs*

[katie bridgewater]

Stalkers start shooting at around this time of year in the UK - we just got our first Sika deer skin today - so I expect you came across the place where a local stalker processes the ones he has shot. Shooting often takes place at night, but it is easier to butcher by daylight, so perhaps the carcass had been left overnight. I imagine the stalker puts the skulls in trees, either as an instinct or as a way of showing some respect, or while he waits for the flesh to decay if he plans to use or sell the skull. The removal of the head and feet is one of the first parts of the butchering process but I know from experience that while the body gradually loses it's 'dead animal-ness' as you process it, this doesn't really happen with the head, so we too take it to a special place away from where we work and leave it for nature to reclaim peacefully and respectfully. Either way, it doesn't sound like anything sinister to me, but I can imagine it might have seemed like it if you have no experience of this kind of thing.

(Stalking of deer is quite normal in Britain- deer have no predators in the UK and in rural areas are something of a pest. There are people who would like to see wolves re-introduced to keep deer numbers down as just the presence of wolves inhibits their breeding capacity)

Instead of feeling scared or upset, I find it helpful to ponder the fact that we are all made of the same stuff as our prey. It is fascinating and informative to be so close to a wild animal, albeit a dead one. Most people have no idea where meat comes from, other than the supermarket. Sadly most UK venison goes to export as British people either don't realise it is available, or are somehow now brainwashed into thinking that all food should come factory farmed and shrink wrapped from tesco...

[Badger Bob]

Around here, deer heads are often left in the wood for flies and ants to strip. Its easier than boiling to remove the flesh. If there are scavengers around that might carry the trophy skull away then they are tied up out of reach of foxes, mink, carnivorous sheep etc.

[Huathe]

Katie,

Is the term " Stalker " the same as " Hunter " or does it mean hunting illegal as " Poacher ". Stalker is not a term heard much here in the US.

Strange practice, I must say...

[Lily]

I am pleasantly surprised to see all these explanations that make a lot of sense.

too bad it scared the kids.

[katie bridgewater]

Katie,

Is the term " Stalker " the same as " Hunter " or does it mean hunting illegal as " Poacher ". Stalker is not a term heard much here in the US.

Strange practice, I must say...

No it's not illegal. 'Stalker' is an occupation, and there are professional stalkers here. They often work hand in hand with estate gamekeepers or farmers. Deer are a serious problem in some parts of the country so culling is carried out to keep their numbers down. I'm sure some stalking is done without permission , whereby it becomes 'poaching' but the term stalker doesn't carry that meaning at all. We know quite a few law abiding stalkers locally who are kind enough to let us know when they have a deer skin for us to tan and turn into drums and rattles. Some of them let us have the venison too!

Unlike in Scandinavia and Canada etc, hunting for wild game is not a very common pass time in the UK - it is mostly the sport of aristocrats or those who would like to identify themselves with them. It's a very crowded island and hunting of wild or managed game is a very lucrative and class-related industry, pandering to stereotypes and the desire for status. Over centuries of Enclusures Acts in Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure) , thousands of hungry people have been hanged or transported for hunting on land where they previously were allowed to. Most of the land here is 'owned' by someone (William the Conquerer divvied England up between his cronies, whose descendants still own a huge proportion of Britain) and those landowners have done everything possible to stop ordinary people hunting for venison etc. Sporting rights on most land are expensive and often retained by the seller when land is sold on.

There are of course people who hunt for game (we shoot the rabbits here on the farm where we live) but as arms are strictly controlled here, you need a gun license to own anything powerful enough to kill a big animal such as a deer. Hence the need to employ professional stalkers to shoot them.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

[Huathe]

Katie,

The US is like Canada. Hunting is a common pastime sport here and we have regulated hunting seasons. Stalkers are not needed here since hunters do the job quite well. Generally anyone can own a hunting rifle or shotgun without special permits, unless you are a felon. Handguns generally require being registered and any thing fully auto requires a special license.

I sometimes feel the rules are a bit too liberal here. I have seen morons in the woods with a rifle that I would not feel comfortable around. Using a gun does take some ethical common sense!!

[Lily]

I've talked to freaks who go and hunt deer with a bow and arrow.
Way to go when it gets away, amateur.

In more confined countries, ours too, it makes a lot of sense to control deer because they damage commercial forests. And virtually all forests are used for wood production in our tiny country.

[Huathe]

I've talked to freaks who go and hunt deer with a bow and arrow.
Way to go when it gets away, amateur.

In more confined countries, ours too, it makes a lot of sense to control deer because they damage commercial forests. And virtually all forests are used for wood production in our tiny country.

Actually deer have a better chance of eluding the hunter if he uses a bow. The Bow Hunter has to be more stealthy and get closer to his prey than a hunter who uses a gun. This gives a deer's keen senses more time to detect the hunter and get away. With a rifle, a deer has a much less chance of survival. He has not as much of a chance to get away.

It is true that the gun has a better chance of a quick kill, but modern compound bows with broadhead arrows are much more powerful than older designs. They also enable the hunter to hold their draw better than the older recurve or English Longbow designs increasing the hunter's chance for an accurate quick-killing shot on a vital area.

I disagree with hunters baiting deer or using dogs to hunt them. I believe deer should be given a fair chance to survive. The hunter should earn his game.

[katie bridgewater]

Sadly is illegal to hunt in the UK with a bow and arrow.Even with an English Longbow. Guns powerful enough to kill more than a rabbit are only legal with a licence.

[cat]

I have a friend who often process dear skins that are normal burnt by the stalkers.

He normally get the heads as well which are put in an old elder tree. I think that from what I gathered it is as a sign of respect to the animal and to help it journey to the other world. Maybe this is something similar.

[DaRC]

I have seen morons in the woods with a rifle that I would not feel comfortable around.

Yep - in the UK countryside I've seen them, you just look at their eyes and see the gun gives them some sort of a power-trip.

The main thing (well with proper stalkers) is the requisite ability to kill with a single shot. That way no injured animals are left wandering around to die a slow painful death.

[Susanne]

Hunting is a way of life for many where I live. The locals joke that the 4 seasons are ski season (winter), blackfly season (spring), foliage season (fall) and hunting season which is pretty much all year long.
I have hunted in the past & have seen both types of hunters. Those who do it for their own thrill and those who have respect for the land & animals that provide their food.
I thinks it's probably pretty much the same in most places these days.

[sare]

I respect all your opinions and views and i hope you will be able to do the same except i will guess that its not going to go down well!
Am i the only person that is bothered by the current conversation? I am no townie,nor am i an unrealist living in a dreamworld,but where i come from in the countryside and how we lived,animals were killed for no other reason than for food,and then only if you really need it,to kill for survival,because if you dont eat that animal you will go hungry,this is realistic,practical,natural,after all,that is the way of so many creatures for their survival but for us humans, only if you really must,Culling was and is a very unpleasant fact,controversial and not liked where i am but sadly almost accepted as a necessary evil,in relation to Deer.But i have a problem with talking predominently of the best way to kill and then about the unnecessary use of its body parts,not for real survival reasons,warmth etc.And what of respect for the animal that is being killed?
I am a realist,i do live in the real world,but can there not be more thought of the due respect and feeling there should be for an animal that has just been hunted and killed for a meal and skins for objects? Us humans wield more than enough power over our natural world around us,we are all part of it and in this together,realism and practicality can be tempered with respect and only necessary killing.
I have ment no offence to anyone,but i felt i had to say something. and yes,my family and i live daily with Deer,rabbits,foxes,badgers etc and strive to live in harmony,without killing any of them.It is possible.

[Blyth]

I am glad sare posted a reply because I also feel rather disturbed by talking about ways of killing. I accept that animals are killed for food and I respect other people's views on this as I hope others will respect mine.
In my younger days I worked on a farm and have lived in a rural county for most of my life so I am well versed in country ways. I have always felt uneasy with the killing of animals and now in my latter years, I try to eat as little fish and meat as I can.
Strangely [or is it?] my feelings have become stronger since starting my bardic training and realising all living matter is sacred.
Please try not to come down on me too scathingly because I am a newbie but I felt I had to say my piece.
Blessings...

[katie bridgewater]

I am glad sare posted a reply because I also feel rather disturbed by talking about ways of killing. I accept that animals are killed for food and I respect other .

In this thread we have been talking about the killing of wild deer, which is not done primarily for food in the UK, but as a form of pest control. Meat is a byproduct of this, and unless it is eaten by humans would be exported, destroyed or eaten by other beings such as bacteria. Killing any living being is something that should never be undertaken lightly. I personally feel just as bad about the mice that die in the combine harvester as the deer that are shot for pest control.

You might find the Animist Manifesto by the esteemed Graham Harvey helpful in understanding the dilemma that we all face.
http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk/bear_tribe/about.html You will need to scroll down a little on this page.

Faced with the need to take the lives of other conscious beings I see 3 possible courses of action:
1) Just harden oneself, and continue to live without regard or compassion for those whose lives we must take that we might live, or adopt a theology in which 'God' tells you that human beings are in charge and can do what they want.
2) Avoid any killing at all, and starve to death (plants die to feed us and so do billions of creatures in their cultivation, and every sip of milk is paid for with the death of a calf so even a vegan, a fruitarian or a Jain rely on the deaths of other beings to survive)
3) Understand and accept that we are part of this awful cycle, and remain open to the suffering we cause (compassion). Ensure that every life we take is necessary and treated with honour and respect.

I try to follow the path of number 3 but it is a sad and painful place to start. There is no better way to do this that I have found than to look your dinner in the eye and apologise to it / him / her, be it a broad bean whose baby I have just boiled to death, or the cows on the farm next door who have just had their babies removed so people can have whey powder in their biscuits....

[sare]

Valid and truthful points,i stick by how i feel though,which is no to unnecessary killing.I think this is one of those subjects by where we just have to agree to disagree!

[Susanne]

I think this is one of those subjects by where we just have to agree to disagree!

I agree with this
I also agree that hunting is best when done out of necessity, which for some of the folks in my area it really is. Even in this day & age there are families struggling to feed themselves and adding some venison or rabbit makes a big difference to them.
I also agree with Katie that there is no better way to appreciate your meal than to look the animal in the eye and honor it. I do not hunt anymore but I do raise poultry for meat. It is all done with great care, respect & compassion. I find it preferable to going to the grocery store to pick up a shrink wrapped package of who knows what, from who knows where that was treated so poorly it was probably a mercy for it to die.....
It is a tough choice. There is a thread on one of the forums on this subject if you want to check it out.
Sue

[Corwen]

Valid and truthful points,i stick by how i feel though,which is no to unnecessary killing.I think this is one of those subjects by where we just have to agree to disagree!

Sadly because of the absence of wolves in the UK and the tendency for deer to breed without restraint, there is a choice, deer or forests. The deer eat the young trees and prevent the forests from regenerating, so eventually the forests will die if you don't control the deer.