Druidry and violence

[Crimson Stormfire]

the element fire comes to mind, here.
fire through uncontrolled violence can destroy.
fire through controlled violence can create.
fire through a passive state can warm
fire through a passive state can burn.

the element of fire isnt bad per say but the use of it can produce harmful effects.

violence in general when in a diad comparatively to pacifism is wholly adverse,{i think} but when tempered with patience and the learned teachings of martial arts it can be fused like fire into a peace wielding force......like the warrior monks of buddha........

train of thought de-railed....... sorry guys......hope my point is across....

[Mick Hart]

I know druids like to practice a reverence for all life regardless of form, but I was wondering how they feel about self-defense or coming to the rescue of others? (…)

Dear Aoife.

I cannot speak for all druids, but I can speak for myself. I believe that violence is neither inheritly good nor bad, but rather something that reflects its use. Like many other people I consider unnecessary violence to be a bad thing, but the question is; when is violence necessary? Violence can be necessary when someone is unnecessarily violent against us or our fellow beings.

(…) I do not wish for an altercation but merely the tools to survive it if I need to fight. (…)

Altercation, fighting and violence in general is a way of dealing with force. "What is the best way to deal with force?"

Yes, that would be how I would try to handle the situation as well. (…) Of course I would wait until the last possible moment until it was deemed absolutely necessary.

We can ethically reflect upon how to act in a theoretical situation, but our intellectual thoughts does not rule our actions alone. They are also ruled by our emotions and instincts, and when we panic we lose control of our actions. How do we learn not to panic in violent situations? By training our consciousness while exposing ourselves to violence in controlled measures – as done during martials arts training. With persistence we may learn to avoid panic, fear and anger when confronted with violence - described poetically; our hearts become one with nature. "In a heart that is one with nature, though the body contends there is no violence."

I am training my heart to be one with nature, and I still have much to learn. These are my thoughts on violence.

Thank you.

[Dru]

Well said Mick Being a Police Officer, violence for me cannot be avoided in some situations. I'm a very good talker on the street but sometimes people just want to fight or try to kill you. I may not be able to control the violent situation, but I can control the kind of force and the amount of force I use. My objective is to stop a threat and when I have stopped the threat, my force ends there.I know what is appropriate for me and that took training and self discipline to acknowledge. Unfortunately it also took a lot of real life experience for me to get that discipline. You never know how you are going to react in certain situations. As for me, I'm happy to say that I've reacted appropriately in all my encounters and there have been many. A situation can go bad at the drop of a hat in my profession but they can also calm down just as quick. I need to know on the fly when to escalate my force used and to deescalate my force used. I'm not a violent person by nature and I don't condone violence but I'm glad I have that ability to become violent as it has saved my life, the lives of people in my community and coworkers.

[Al Hakim]

According to the few historical sources druids had never been afraid of violence, nor to use it if necessary. I find no fault in applying violence in a way that is accepted in modern (and western) civilization, i.e. for the defence of yourself and others in an emergency, furthermore, for public reasons as long as we accept violence by police and military forces. But I advocate a legal norm before using violence. However, the latest youth actions in England have the potential to make me think differently...
Al Hakim

[DJ Droood]

But I advocate a legal norm before using violence. However, the latest youth actions in England have the potential to make me think differently...
Al Hakim

So you are starting to lean more towards American polemicist Ann Coulter's advice? many are...

A few well-placed rifle rounds, and the rioting would end in an instant. A more sustained attack on the rampaging mob might save England from itself, finally removing shaved-head, drunken parasites from the benefits rolls that Britain can't find the will to abolish on moral or utilitarian grounds. We can be sure there's no danger of killing off the next Winston Churchill or Edmund Burke in these crowds.

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-08-10.html

[DaRC]

Whoa there...
I had this discussion with my teenage sons this weekend.
Whilst there is no excuse for the rioters actions the state cannot respond in kind. It would make the state as bad as the rioters - how could the UK criticise Syria or anyone else?
The most appropriate punishment for many of these would be community service rebuilding that which they have destroyed.

However there is an irony in one far-right (in a UK sense) mouthpiece advocating extreme violence against "shaved-head, drunken parasites " which is the UK perspective on our own far-right people, which is different to the criminal hard core of the rioters who disguised themselves with hats & hoodies.

The rioters point that the MP's and Police have been 'outed' as criminals anyway via recent expense and bribery scandals is still a valid one.

[DJ Droood]

Whoa there...

just floating some balloons.... Coulter is not some fringe freak I dug up from a random blog hit...she is a representative voice for a sizable number of people in North America..probably Europe, too. If she is thinking it, others already are or soon will.

However there is an irony in one far-right (in a UK sense) mouthpiece advocating extreme violence against "shaved-head, drunken parasites

Do you ever find yourself sipping your morning coffee, reading the paper and nodding your head in agreement with the far-right mouth pieces (we call them newspaper columnists over here) and suddenly realize how old you are getting? I do....then I realize my kid is a shaved-head, drunken parasite and I dial it back a bit....

[DaRC]

Coulter is not some fringe freak I dug up from a random blog hit...she is a representative voice for a sizable number of people in North America

Yep I was aware of that = it's what worries much of the rest of the world

Do you ever find yourself sipping your morning coffee, reading the paper and nodding your head in agreement with the far-right mouth pieces

Nope I gave up reading papers a long time ago because it was full of...far-right mouth pieces (actually columnists who just spout forth what the readership want to hear rather than rational discussion).
Although it's lucky the kids don't read newspapers otherwise I suspect they'd be nodding their heads

My kids are far too keen on noticing how old I'm getting. I'm thinking of putting them on a bread & water diet so they don't grow taller than me

[Al Hakim]

So you are starting to lean more towards American polemicist Ann Coulter's advice? many are...

A few well-placed rifle rounds, and the rioting would end in an instant. A more sustained attack on the rampaging mob might save England from itself, finally removing shaved-head, drunken parasites from the benefits rolls that Britain can't find the will to abolish on moral or utilitarian grounds. We can be sure there's no danger of killing off the next Winston Churchill or Edmund Burke in these crowds.

Well, if you have got people like that dear Ann you need no enemies. I think (in the very old times) people used to be more careful using violence because it was potentially lethal to themselves, too. Nowadays, you can press some buttons thousands of miles afar from the place of war. What is missing are clear structures, and ethics. I remember a remarkable sentence one of the old East-German judges said after re-unification: "People need to learn again what is good and what bad." Violence should be directed against bad things, the evil, and that implies that there is a clear definition and common understanding of what the evil is. Just for me, subjects demolishing other persons' properties are evil.
Al Hakim

[athelia143]

**back to the original topic**

Perhaps I should explain more clearly.

I am not a druid yet. I'm still researching it and it seems like this is the path I would like to follow but I admit that pacifism conflicts with my nature when it comes to danger, however rare it may be. As of yet I haven't used my kung fu on anyone but I admit the whole reason I took it was because I was...victimized...when I was 19 years old and I swore to myself I would never be anyone's victim again. However, I know I would not hesitate to fight if I absolutely had to.

Hi Aoife,

I was victimized quite a number of times as a child and in my teens and I too swore that I would not allow that to happen again. Looking at many of the myths and legends of the Irish, Welsh, etc., the Celts were not pacifists either. Far from it, in fact! The Druids may have been exempt from battle, but who was it who taught those warriors to be brave in battle because their souls were immortal? The Druids. Who was it who supposedly ran through the battles inciting the warriors to fight (according to the Romans)? Black-robed Ban-Draoi (Female Druids). It was said that a Celtic woman was a formidable foe on the battlefield as well, so fighting was not just for the men.

This may not be 100% historically correct, but my point is that the Druids were the spiritual leaders in a warrior society. I don't think they were preaching pacifism as rule #1. Balance and prudence, perhaps, but not 100% pacifism.

Finally, look at The Morrighan, the Irish Goddess of transformation, fate, battle and war. It was She who fueled the fighting spirit in the warriors and I don't think She would instruct her warriors to roll over and not fight. (I know for a fact that She does not - I've been a devotee of hers for a long time.)

There is nothing written anywhere that says a Druid *must* be a pacifist. I know I'm not and I've been on the Druid path since 1991. My ancestry includes Celtic blood (Welsh and Irish) as well as Cossacks on my father's side. Being a pacifist would go against my very blood, I'm thinking.

Some Modern Druids may embrace pacifism, others do not. The wonder of Modern Druidry is that you have the opportunity to grow and develop on your path and discover for yourself the sacred balance as well as what is right and wrong. (Trust me... you'll know either way as you journey on your own path!)

However, all that said, being a non-pacifist Druid does not give license for one to be senselessly violent either. There must be a balance with things. There must be some wisdom in the decision of whether to fight for something and how much you put into that fight. If you or your family are being threatened, victimized, etc., then yes, you fight back if you can.

A few years back, I was moved to write my own "Standards of Ethical Living". The motivation were a couple of people living in the house that were in trouble with the law and a host of other things, so I put it up on the wall as a reminder of the "rules of our House" so to speak. This is not meant to be a missive of how anyone here or anywhere else should live, they are just the standards I have set for myself. I think you might be particularly interested in #14.

1. All life is sacred

2. Uphold the Truth, starting with yourself

3. Uphold the Law ~ You are a member of society and are bound by its rules ~ Do no evil

4. Uphold Justice ~ Be sure of your convictions and practice fair judgment

5. Every action has a consequence ~ Be prepared to compensate for ill action if required and learn from your mistakes

6. Hospitality is Sacred ~ Be good host as well as a good guest

7. Be compassionate and merciful in your actions

8. Maintain your health

9. Make an honest living, be competent, work with high standards, spend your fortune wisely and pay your dues ~ Do not live beyond your means

10. Follow a sincere Path of Service and maintain Rectitude

11. Maintain stability through a healthy balance of personal, professional and spiritual priorities

12. Live in the present ~ use knowledge of the past and present to create a positive future

13. Be mutually respectful of other Faiths, the Earth, our Communities and our Peers

14. Maintain an honourable presence and uphold valour ~ do not allow others to victimize you

I compiled these from various sources including the Triads, Audacht Morann, Awen Grove’s Statement of Ethics, The Path of Service, Instructions of Cormac and Good Common Sense in August of 2007.

I wish you all the best on your path and hope that you find the answers you seek along the way.

Blessings,

Athelia /|\

[LoneWalker]

Starting with the fact that for me the central aspect of druidry is connecting with nature I would say that nature is full of violence so if it appeals to you exploring it in yourself in a context where despite any physical damage that gets inflicted no one leaves with mental/emotional/spiritual scars is a good thing - that can be martial arts, other contact sports etc.

Physical self defence has already been well covered by other posters - its extremely unlikely to be required if you observe the other aspects of self defence.

I think we should be more concerned with how we deal with non-physical violence since that is something most people encounter more commonly but that probably needs a seperate topic and when we abhor the two equally society will probably be a better place.

[Arcanum]

In order to understand Peace, one must study War.

In order to understand Life, one must study Death also.

I think studying and practicing war for 20 years like I have is a great endeavor as a Druid. One leans some Divination, how to see at night (without electronic means) and other forms of field-craft, among other things.

[Aitrus]

I wish you all the best on your path and hope that you find the answers you seek along the way.

Blessings,

Athelia /|\

Athelia,

I like that list. Well done.

[Kauz Waldheri]

WHAT THE HELL?!?!?! Druids WERE NOT all about peace! They were CELTS! How the hell are you changing it into what you "think" it should be? Druids WERE NOT hippies!!! Do you know who the GAULS were?

[treegod]

Well, a lot can happen in 2000 years.

[DJ Droood]

YEA!!! AND THE CELTS POSTED MOSTLY IN CAPS, AS WELL!! SO YOU *KNEW* WHEN THEY WERE QUITE WORKED UP!!! FRICK!!

[DaRC]

ssssssh everyone knows Celts like to which means peace & quiet after the party.
Particularly when everyone's had too much magic potion.

[DJ Droood]

:huh: ssssssh everyone knows Celts like to which means peace & quiet after the party.
Particularly when everyone's had too much magic potion.

I believe they also liked to snuggle with with each other after a wee dram....

"Although they have good-looking women, they pay very little attention to them, but are really crazy about having sex with men. They are accustomed to sleep on the ground on animal skins and roll around with male bed-mates on both sides. Heedless of their own dignity, they abandon without qualm the bloom of their bodies to others. And the most incredible thing is that they don’t think this is shameful. But when they proposition someone, they consider it dishonourable if he doesn’t accept the offer!"

Diodorus Siculus (1.BCE)

Which doesn't really speak to their violent tendencies, but shows they had a tender side too.

[Jake]

YEA!!! AND THE CELTS POSTED MOSTLY IN CAPS, AS WELL!! SO YOU *KNEW* WHEN THEY WERE QUITE WORKED UP!!! FRICK!!

Hahaahaahahaaha!

I believe they also liked to snuggle with with each other after a wee dram....

"Although they have good-looking women, they pay very little attention to them, but are really crazy about having sex with men....."

Hot.

Yeah you can see who wore the pigtails (and the bling) in ancient Gaulish relationships:

[DJ Droood]

Yeah you can see who wore the pigtails (and the bling) in ancient Gaulish relationships:

What is that in her hand?