Odinism and the Far Right?

[DaRC]

Ethnicity of us humans, who he helps govern, would seem irrelevant to him, naturally. People do not give the god of wisdom, diplomacy and magic much credit.

There are many anti-racist lessons within heathen lore:
- the use of fostering to create relationships amongst people, in Njal's Saga fostering is detailled
- that the Aesir & Vanir had no problems about accepting Jotuns, their acceptance of Skathi & Gerd (although I'll admit this is via marriage), however in Lokasenna they are more than happy to attend a Jotun feast.
- the whole cauldron effect of the migration period when people of seperate ethnicities grouped together to form a common whole; in Volsungasaga Atli (aka Attila the Hun) is brother of Brunhild (a Valkyrie).

[dvawlqos]

My take on the whole blood-thing is that we are a continuation of the culture and spirit of our ancestors. It's just how things are. I don't see any "surpremacy" issue in looking at what your ancestors were like. I think both the racists and the multiculturalists are wrong to some degree.

The racists are wrong about ancestory because it was never strictly speaking about "race" as we know it today. People could and did join tribes -- the rareness of the event and the apparent monoracial component of the tribal unit had more to do with the relative distance between the tribes themselves. Most people up until maybe 1700 would have only traveled maybe 25 miles from home in their lifetimes. People didn't join distant tribes because it was very difficult for them to travel beyond the tribal homeland. That's why we had trade routes like the Silk Road -- goods did travel up and down the road, but it wasn't like one merchant would go from Athens to Hong Kong. Instead they'd sell their goods in a nearby city where they would be bought and shipped to the next city etc. until the goods had crossed the distance.

Multiculturism is problematic for a different reason -- it tends to create an essential monoculture in which the only uniqueness in culture that is really acceptable is the nonessentials. In most cases, multiculturalism really means that "so long as you worship money and dress like a westerner during the day, we'll let you keep a few rituals and dress customs and foods". In short, any "culture" in multiculturalism is reserved for the edges of your existance -- Food, after-work dress, religion (so long as it doesn't interfere with the money-making activities M-F between 7am and 6pm). That's not even close to multicultural. It's Western Capitalism dressed in various tribal garbs. Real multiculturalism would allow people to truely value things other than money. It would be permissable for a muslim to be a muslim first and a capitalist second, or a pagan to put nature before profits. But just try to express such an opinion and the multiculturalists will not be happy.

[bookishepona]

Real multiculturalism would allow people to truely value things other than money. It would be permissable for a muslim to be a muslim first and a capitalist second, or a pagan to put nature before profits. But just try to express such an opinion and the multiculturalists will not be happy.

It depends which multiculturalists you speak to. I grant you that some wouldn't be happy with what you propose, but I would, and I'd call myself a supporter of multiculturalism (not least because *not* supporting multiculturalism puts one much further to the political right than I am happy with). I would say, though, that many advocates of multiculturalism in the model you describe are missing one of the key cultures - white Western capitalism and belief in the free market are manifestations of culture just as much as dressing in a certain way. The use of 'culture' to mean 'cultures which are not the dominant one' is misleading, and steers multiculturalism wrong because you cannot value all items in group x equally when there's a big one you're pretending isn't there (in this case, people seem to be simultaneously devaluing it by ignoring it, often being jealous of other cultures which are seen as full of shiny exotic things, and overvaluing it by assuming that everyone shares and agrees with it already). Perhaps I'm what you call a 'real multiculturalist'?

[dvawlqos]

Real multiculturalism would allow people to truely value things other than money. It would be permissable for a muslim to be a muslim first and a capitalist second, or a pagan to put nature before profits. But just try to express such an opinion and the multiculturalists will not be happy.

It depends which multiculturalists you speak to. I grant you that some wouldn't be happy with what you propose, but I would, and I'd call myself a supporter of multiculturalism (not least because *not* supporting multiculturalism puts one much further to the political right than I am happy with). I would say, though, that many advocates of multiculturalism in the model you describe are missing one of the key cultures - white Western capitalism and belief in the free market are manifestations of culture just as much as dressing in a certain way. The use of 'culture' to mean 'cultures which are not the dominant one' is misleading, and steers multiculturalism wrong because you cannot value all items in group x equally when there's a big one you're pretending isn't there (in this case, people seem to be simultaneously devaluing it by ignoring it, often being jealous of other cultures which are seen as full of shiny exotic things, and overvaluing it by assuming that everyone shares and agrees with it already). Perhaps I'm what you call a 'real multiculturalist'?

I'm not saying that western consumerists have no culture, what I'm saying is that it tends to borg all other cultures into an appendage of itself. Back to nature movements generally get co-opted, and as I said before, most "native" cultures at this point are relegated to "quaint customs that don't interfere with capitalist culture". I tend to pray that Druidry never becomes as popular as Wicca for just that reason. I don't want our ideas used to make some interloper rich while ignoring the substance of the idea. Shamanism and Wicca were powerful ideas, and they still are except that now you have to wade through tons of pretenders and Wiccans selling spells on the internet or 10 a minute psychic readings. Real paganism and real druidry are more about changing yourself then what you see when you google -- in which case you'll see love spells, prosperity spells, and so on. I also don't like that Wicca, which started historicly as a initiatory tradition is now simply self initiated (which strips it of any tradition it ever had, as well as giving unbalanced people access to spells that would probably never be taught to them by a master wiccan.

That's how the thing really works. If some minority population has something unique that capitalists can make a buck on, it WILL be co-opted and sold.

[Ghostrider]

Just adding a few coals to the fire

5th of the Nine Noble Virtues: Hospitality (no exceptions... not race, religion or sexual prefference in any case... )

8th of the NNV: Self-Reliance: as described in "Exploring the Northern Tradition" by Galina Krasskova: "Ridding oneself of ANY unconscious motivations, tearing down blockages of ego, and moving past the codependency and self-pity that we, as a society, have been taught.
Now.. as far as racism goes, to me, there is very little more of a blockage of ego, or based on fear and self-pity than that..

Moving on to the English, or Anglo-Saxon version, of Heathenry, one could also live by the Twelve Aetheling Thews, which are an extended version of the Nine Virtues, and then we come by Efnes: Equality and equal justice for everyone, regardless of gender, race, social standing and so on.

In the case of those pertaining to base their 'superiority' on Heathenry, Asatru, Odinism or any other set of values, I guess it is all up to how you read and explain those values, but I prefer mine to be based on my own strengths and weaknesses, not on those of another, which is exactly what racism and fascism are all about ( "They are wrong and WE are the BEST", sounds like playground-philosophy to me... ).

Heathenry is also all about serving and improving ones community. This cannot be done by excluding others from that community.
By including all races, all genders, all ..... (fill in blanks), Heathenry creates a living and breathing community and in doing so also lives by the virtues set forth by Wodan:

Courage
Discipline
Fidelity
Honor
Hospitality
Industriousness
Perseverance
Self-Reliance
and
Truth.

[Davin Raincloud]

To the OP, Ben Wood.

You are right to say that OBOD, is not a Far Right group. I think this attitude extends from the Chosen Chief who is quite easy going and inclusive.

But,

This forum is open to a lot of people, members and non-members. It is prudent to remember there are quite a few Right Wingers here, and far Right Wingers. Lots of Libertarians. So you'll have a lot of apologists denying what you say.

I'm Germanic, I feel a connection to Odin.... so it sickens me that Right Wing Conservatives pervert this path. Actually all Right Wing Conservatives sicken me full stop.

[DJ Droood]

You are right to say that OBOD, is not a Far Right group.

I think that is fair and accurate...I have come to learn over the years, though, that (modern) Druids in general, and OBODies specifically, since I am the most familiar with this bunch, are quite conservative (small c...nothing to do with parties)...probably on the "right wing" of the woo woo fringe. There is a tradition of tolerance for "alternative" life-styles, but ideologically, Druids don't seem like champions of substantive societal change...reduce, reuse and recycle is enough...respectful of authority (and craving their acceptance, as with the TDN recognition thingy), conservative in economic and social policy and for the most part conformists and consumerists, like any other good citizen. More than a few are nationalists, interested in heritage cultural conservation and isolationists.

If the posts still existed, you could go back and see debates here from the time of the Bush invasion of Iraq, climate change, peak oil, the Gulf BP oil spill, recent unrest in the UK, etc, and my reading is of a spiritual community that doesn't colour much outside the lines of mainstream opinion on anything...although to be fair, progressive posters are tolerated here better than the ultra right.

[Heddwen]

What am I to say to an Odinist who asks me whether I have a Nordic bloodline? What am I to say to a Welsh Druid who asks me to prove my Celtic-ness?

I'd ask them for their own proof...surely, the only thing that really matters is yourself...and most of us are a mix anyway

[Jake]

I think that is fair and accurate...I have come to learn over the years, though, that (modern) Druids in general, and OBODies specifically, since I am the most familiar with this bunch, are quite conservative (small c...nothing to do with parties)...probably on the "right wing" of the woo woo fringe. There is a tradition of tolerance for "alternative" life-styles, but ideologically, Druids don't seem like champions of substantive societal change...reduce, reuse and recycle is enough...respectful of authority (and craving their acceptance, as with the TDN recognition thingy), conservative in economic and social policy and for the most part conformists and consumerists, like any other good citizen. More than a few are nationalists, interested in heritage cultural conservation and isolationists.

If the posts still existed, you could go back and see debates here from the time of the Bush invasion of Iraq, climate change, peak oil, the Gulf BP oil spill, recent unrest in the UK, etc, and my reading is of a spiritual community that doesn't colour much outside the lines of mainstream opinion on anything...although to be fair, progressive posters are tolerated here better than the ultra right.

Totally agree with this!

I blame the romanticized neo-medievalism, and all the robes and cloaks.

[Heddwen]

I think that is fair and accurate...I have come to learn over the years, though, that (modern) Druids in general, and OBODies specifically, since I am the most familiar with this bunch, are quite conservative (small c...nothing to do with parties)...probably on the "right wing" of the woo woo fringe. There is a tradition of tolerance for "alternative" life-styles, but ideologically, Druids don't seem like champions of substantive societal change...reduce, reuse and recycle is enough...respectful of authority (and craving their acceptance, as with the TDN recognition thingy), conservative in economic and social policy and for the most part conformists and consumerists, like any other good citizen. More than a few are nationalists, interested in heritage cultural conservation and isolationists.

If the posts still existed, you could go back and see debates here from the time of the Bush invasion of Iraq, climate change, peak oil, the Gulf BP oil spill, recent unrest in the UK, etc, and my reading is of a spiritual community that doesn't colour much outside the lines of mainstream opinion on anything...although to be fair, progressive posters are tolerated here better than the ultra right.

Totally agree with this!

I blame the romanticized neo-medievalism, and all the robes and cloaks.

although there is a tendency to stereotype us....into robe wearing libertarians. I'm not so sure we can decide the political stance of individuals from the posts on a board, or perhaps you source elsewhere...

[DJ Droood]

I'm not so sure we can decide the political stance of individuals from the posts on a board, or perhaps you source elsewhere...

I am more commenting on "the collective" rather than individuals...the overall tone of the board....I think it is almost dead-centre....I have seen only hints of radical political thinking, left or right, on the board and in the real-life OBODies I've met....which is good...I'm fairly middle of the road and bourgois myself, so I am comfortable here....druidry tries to find the middle-ground.

[Bracken]

Posts from this point onwards were deemed to have become a problem to the forum as they broke the terms of the Registration Agreement. I have removed them to the archive. Please feel free to continue with the discussion as it stands.