4 stages of Druidry

[Merlyn]

I'd say in the reverse order, as it normally is, is how druidry is supposed to work. But as you see, it isn't the case often enough.
I see it come from expectations like;
"I'm a druid now, when to I start, how much do I make teaching, sign me up as a tutor."
"How do I get into the secret druid council now. I graduated so I'm in, right?"
"What do you mean I'm not really a druid, what's a druid grade member?"
"I thought the druid grade would prepare me for a life time job as a druid, how or what am I now?"
"This is my order now and I say who can and cannot be here."
And so on.
Also I see;
"Well I skipped that, and that... and the other thing.. it said only do it if I want to.."
"What extra reading? I did the gwers, that's the course, right?"

Like many things you get out what you put in.
There is also adjustment, like if you were a Rune-master before, or a Christian, or any religion and the view of what a druid is or what will be in the end.
Lots of flavors I have seen come to the same topping, so to speak.

It is more truthful to say, no matter where you go, there you are.
This isn't a geographical cure nor is it socially transcending.

But, I will say this, and it is an important thing to take note of;
Most of the very successful people in the world have taken some very deeply spiritual or spiritually transcending course or learning of this kind.

Foods fer thought.

It's more like;
1 curiosity
2 quenching a thirst
3 driving without a speedometer
4 getting along in the journey and having lost the map
5 realizing just how lost you really are
6 Finally not caring and enjoying the scenery.
7 Running out of gas.



Merlyn

[Frog]

Hello Merlyn (and everyone else of course)

I am really enjoying this discussion, but I think that there are a couple of things that seem to have struck a chord with me.

I quite like the solitary approach. I did try a local pagan moot, but in truth I felt it was a collection of the strangest people I'd met in a long while - and I felt very uncomfortable being part of that. I'm sure that there are better groups around, but I simply don't have the time to waste trolling around. I do try to present myself here in cyberspace as often as possible - which I guess is a group. My concern is that if we were to head down a route of using groves as part of the teaching programme we do run a risk where such problems could exist. Having worked in a voluntary sector for many years with my Scouting I also recognise that the tutor system is similarly flawed as learners discuss with other people (each with their own views and opinions) - my hope is that there would be some kind of appraisal system for tutors to ensure fairness in their dealings with students.

I don't feel comfortable with the term "whateveryouwant" to describe anyone's path; after a number of years wandering around using the Bardic Companion as torchlight it seems almost patronising to describe peoples beliefs.

Not to single out a particular point (but I'm going to )

To do this would require a much larger effort and structure to the international order. This is something opposite to the philosophy of the OBOD.
Here is a comparison;
A Christian can get a bible anywhere, the OBOD course is only available through the OBOD.
Churches are sponsored, seed groups and groves are not.

With no specific dogma to OBOD, or druidry, OBOD members will be limited. However, there are materials on the market (seax-Wicca, HedgeWitch, Ronald Hutton's books, Philip's books) which should give the non-OBOD member some serious pointers towards a belief system.

I would liken the OBOD course to the Alpha system (or probably more like the next step on from that... which is invitation only I believe).

What I would agree is that OBOD Druidry has now expanded exponentially. To put some kind of capping control onto it would not be helpful - I suspect that many members might disagree with opinions and thoughts ("the way it should be") and we will end up with OBOD-1980 faction, the breakaway OBOD-Taliesin group etc, each producing their own paperwork. Or the main head office expands to a corporation and is run with fee-paying members... which could disadvantage other members.


I think whatever route we take will require hard choices and many will disagree with the route. I realise that the forum will only represent a few members of the Order, so it would be difficult to say with any conviction that all the members want (or need) a change to the organisation structure.

Frog

[MistyNightWind]

What did the druid school really represent in ancient times?
How did the Celtic community work?

More of a trivia question than anything to do with modern druidry...about as relevent as "What colour was Aristotle's toga?" when discussing modern biology.

I agree this is more of a trivia question and the status of Druidry in the ancient times is not going to be reclaimed in todays society, however nice that would be.
As for the celtic community they were focused on fighting and loyalty and I'm sure more but I don't claim to know what- as for the former I guess that could be compared to the business industry today!

Welcome to the OBOD messageboard!

Haha thank you
And your stages of druidry remind me of the stages in the berevment process...

[FoxPhantom]

Hello Merlyn (and everyone else of course)

I am really enjoying this discussion, but I think that there are a couple of things that seem to have struck a chord with me.

I quite like the solitary approach. I did try a local pagan moot, but in truth I felt it was a collection of the strangest people I'd met in a long while - and I felt very uncomfortable being part of that. I'm sure that there are better groups around, but I simply don't have the time to waste trolling around. I do try to present myself here in cyberspace as often as possible - which I guess is a group. My concern is that if we were to head down a route of using groves as part of the teaching programme we do run a risk where such problems could exist. Having worked in a voluntary sector for many years with my Scouting I also recognise that the tutor system is similarly flawed as learners discuss with other people (each with their own views and opinions) - my hope is that there would be some kind of appraisal system for tutors to ensure fairness in their dealings with students.

I don't feel comfortable with the term "whateveryouwant" to describe anyone's path; after a number of years wandering around using the Bardic Companion as torchlight it seems almost patronising to describe peoples beliefs.

Not to single out a particular point (but I'm going to )

To do this would require a much larger effort and structure to the international order. This is something opposite to the philosophy of the OBOD.
Here is a comparison;
A Christian can get a bible anywhere, the OBOD course is only available through the OBOD.
Churches are sponsored, seed groups and groves are not.

With no specific dogma to OBOD, or druidry, OBOD members will be limited. However, there are materials on the market (seax-Wicca, HedgeWitch, Ronald Hutton's books, Philip's books) which should give the non-OBOD member some serious pointers towards a belief system.

I would liken the OBOD course to the Alpha system (or probably more like the next step on from that... which is invitation only I believe).

What I would agree is that OBOD Druidry has now expanded exponentially. To put some kind of capping control onto it would not be helpful - I suspect that many members might disagree with opinions and thoughts ("the way it should be") and we will end up with OBOD-1980 faction, the breakaway OBOD-Taliesin group etc, each producing their own paperwork. Or the main head office expands to a corporation and is run with fee-paying members... which could disadvantage other members.


I think whatever route we take will require hard choices and many will disagree with the route. I realise that the forum will only represent a few members of the Order, so it would be difficult to say with any conviction that all the members want (or need) a change to the organisation structure.

Frog

Well said.

I agree with you about taking a route, that it can be a hard task. Still, I'm wondering, with changing the organization, how would this help? (curious)

[MistyNightWind]

Woops forgot to reply to this one before:

For most people you are correct - Druidry plays its part with paganism. However, there are those who follow druidry but whose religious views are not pagan - for example Christian or Buddhist. It is a topic that has been discussed - without proper conclusion IMO - about whether Druidry is a religous path or a path for belief.

Surely if Druidry was a religious path then it would require rules?

[Merlyn]

I think for the most part, we learn that our spirituality will grow, develop and even change over time.
The basic format of the OBOD course does this, has many open doors to explore and isn't a static or dogmatic system.

Though we have and will have again, those who insist they have it all figured out, defined and everyone else is just plain wrong.
Normally this stems from a few common "dogmas" so to speak.

Deep and satisfying spiritual work takes effort and is unique to our past as it comes to druidry, and where we are geographically. Each place and country has different mountains, trees, animals and so on. So how we connect with an earth centered spiritual path will bring us a lot to share in common but even more to share that is unique.

To this end we have the tens of thousands of posts here, all working with this amazing uniqueness.
I can not for one minute believe all ancient Celts lived much differently. I imagine they too had a lot to share when they met and with a common ground of druidism, they were able to build bridges instead of start wars. The value of education was very real to them.

It is to us too. None of the things I mention are new here, or in life off the message board. Much of it comes directly from personal experience with seed groups and groves, meetings with others and associated life experience. I do however bring a more rare look at some ideas from a more family based druid way which I know I am very lucky to have had.

Few of us really could say or point to something wrong with the OBOD approach if we give it the credit it is due. For me it is one of many which has freed me to be who I am.
For that I am greatly thankful no matter what form it takes with little exception.

I will however always be skeptical enough to engage and even dissect how things are going, and openly consider changes. Though it might not seem so, the OBOD has evolved and changed in many ways. But I think we are coming to yet another fork in the road.
those of us who studied as Philip personally looked on, felt his direct hand in just about every corner will know what I mean when I say I feel the winds of change.
The old Gwers are replaced with new ones now, familiar but different, the core members are going through change, and Philip himself has reached a very life changing time where he will not always be able to speak to everything, one issue at a time as he has.

I am sure though that his creative work will be very well cared for, and he might even take his own advice he gave me, and take a few old irons out of the fire so he can finish the new Druid grade work. (Yes that one is for you Philip if you are lurking about )

In light,
Merlyn /|\

[DJ Droood]

I quite like the solitary approach. I did try a local pagan moot, but in truth I felt it was a collection of the strangest people I'd met in a long while - and I felt very uncomfortable being part of that.

I vacillate back and forth...I will go years doing not much of anything but saluting the sun, then I will have the urge to search other people out, but I have had the same "moot" experience as you describe. We had a really good and active OBOD group for a number of years, but it fell apart like a shaky marriage, so I am "single" again. I found one benefit of OBOD was they sort of vetted people in the group..those who joined were either taking the course or thinking about it, and had the wherewithall and seriousness to stick with something...sort of an anti flake filter. (really limits your numbers, though!) I've only ever met cool OBODies, irl...good folks.

And your stages of druidry remind me of the stages in the berevment process...

lol..I was having fun with that..instead of sorrow to acceptance, it can sometimes be wide-eyed acceptance to sorrow! (well, not really, but the disillusionment I spoke of)

But like Merlyn said, what you feed in is what you get back out, more or less.

[Merlyn]

That all of course brings us to the more important aspects of being a druid.
Like beer
We have been known to see white rhinos and such in our deeper meditations ..

But over-all, yes a good lot.

Merlyn

[Nightfalls]

That all of course brings us to the more important aspects of being a druid.
Like beer
We have been known to see white rhinos and such in our deeper meditations ..

But over-all, yes a good lot.

Merlyn

You all certainly an interesting lot. I actually feel at home on these forums.

Cheers

[MistyNightWind]

lol..I was having fun with that..instead of sorrow to acceptance, it can sometimes be wide-eyed acceptance to sorrow! (well, not really, but the disillusionment I spoke of)

But like Merlyn said, what you feed in is what you get back out, more or less.

I didn't mean to spoil your fun
What I can say is I'm certainly hoping to find some sort of enlightment or inspiration on this path...I've spent too much time being disillusioned or more acturatly having a very bleak view of the world...so I guess bring on the beer and the inspiration

[Merlyn]

Of druidry, is a balance.
We do need to remember how deeply we dive into life must be balanced with the rewards of doing so.

Dance!
And of course have a few beers.

[eilis]

HA HA HA - this is what I love about this board - this discussion has nothing to do with the original topic I posted but was a lovely discussion anyway! The 4 stages of Druidry were historical, rather than personal, stages.

For the word or concept or label: "PAGAN" - the Origin is late = [1325–75; ME < ML, LL pāgānus worshiper of false gods, originally a 'civilian' - hence, not a soldier of Christ, L: peasant, n. use of pāgānus rural, civilian, deriv. of pāgus village, rural district (akin to pangere to fix, make fast); from Latin: countryman, villager, from pāgus village]

I like this term since it means being part of a community (and NOT being a soldier!)

But I was referring to the history of Druidry - or rather to the pre-history of Druidry. We know of the Early History of Druidry is only from some scattered enigmatic statements from before Christ, "BC", by some Greek and Roman authors. Yet we label that historical period "Classical" Druidry (primarily because we consider that period to be "Classical" western history).

I'm wondering if we have not just fallen into a habit of thinking - habitual thought - and mislabeled that period of Druidry. What is implied in calling that time frame 'classical Druidry' is that it was the highest point of development, the pentacle of Druidry, the point in time when Druidry had reached its most complex, highly evolved form, or "Golden Age".

What is wrong with this line of thinking is that we subconsciously apply the notion of "progress" to it. But there are certain fallacies in "progress"! Social institutions are not always moving through time to more complex forms, and even if they have become more complex - that doesn't mean they have come closer to the truth!

Progress is not all it is cracked up to be! Societies can change through time to become more or less complex - for example Egypt was highly complex before Christ, then devolved in terms of 'complexity' i.e. entered into a phase of social unrest and political upheaval which turned the source of Mathematics into a developing nation.

And when looking at Druidry - I see Druids is as truth-seekers - I think we can all agree that as our society has become more complex, we have moved away from rather than toward it. So that can also apply to the Druidry that the Greeks and Romans encountered. As Druidry became more entrenched (complex), it could have moved farther away from a truth that had existed in an earlier phase - a time when Druidry was closer to shamanism.

I personally do not adopt Celtic deities - why swap one deity for another? I feel that the truth lies in getting back to the "SOURCE" - what ever that is...(you could label that God or Nature)...I like Druidry because it is the search for Truth - internal and external.

I really enjoyed reading the thread that evolved - it just proves that evolution is not linear!! Very fun reading all your ideas. Would anyone care to comment on Druidic History?

[reilz81]

well i joined up for the knoledge im not into all this neo stuff and i dont even understand how christians can feel comfortable around druids where in our history our ancestors were murded by theirs so there bound to be some animosity very interesting descussions

[Kauz Waldheri]

First of all. Pagan is a "bad word". It was used as an insult. Calling a Heathen, "pagan", is like calling a negro a "nigger". It was used as a derrogatory term describing non-christians. Ever read Julius Evola? Secondly, "Neo-Druidism" is false no matter how you slice it. Not just anyone can be a druid. You can't just wake up and decide, "i'm going to be a druid now". Druids were philosophers, clergy, GREAT poets, story tellers, MAGICIANS (the real kind), doctors ... Not to be rude but how many here fall under one of these categories HONESTLY? Druidry transcends time and eras. Maybe they WERE Atlanteans or Hyperboreans? And lastly ... a "CHRISTIAN DRUID"?! Or an "Atheist Druid"? Man oh man ....

[Kauz Waldheri]

well i joined up for the knoledge im not into all this neo stuff and i dont even understand how christians can feel comfortable around druids where in our history our ancestors were murded by theirs so there bound to be some animosity very interesting descussions

YES!!!!!

[DJ Droood]

Ever read Julius Evola?

no, but thanks for the warning:

Though never a member of the National Fascist Party itself, or advocate of the term to describe his stances — Evola regarded his position as that of a sympathetic right-wing intellectual, who saw potential in the movement and wished to guide or reform its errors through criticism, to a position inline with his own views. One of his successes was in regards to the racial laws; his advocation of a spiritual consideration of race won out in the debate in Italy, rather than a solely materialist reductionism concept popular in Germany. Since World War II many Radical Traditionalist[disambiguation needed], New Right, Conservative Revolutionary, Fascist and Third Positionist groups have taken inspiration from him.

wiki

edit:

here is an example of his evolved thinking:

“The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center; then he feels like a man standing before leaders of men, and experiences the pride of serving as a free man in his proper station.”

no thanks!...I'll stick with neo...(and Trinity and The Oracle)

[LoneWalker]

First of all. Pagan is a "bad word". It was used as an insult. Calling a Heathen, "pagan", is like calling a negro a "nigger". It was used as a derrogatory term describing non-christians. Ever read Julius Evola? Secondly, "Neo-Druidism" is false no matter how you slice it. Not just anyone can be a druid. You can't just wake up and decide, "i'm going to be a druid now". Druids were philosophers, clergy, GREAT poets, story tellers, MAGICIANS (the real kind), doctors ... Not to be rude but how many here fall under one of these categories HONESTLY? Druidry transcends time and eras. Maybe they WERE Atlanteans or Hyperboreans? And lastly ... a "CHRISTIAN DRUID"?! Or an "Atheist Druid"? Man oh man ....

If Pagan was an insult all the more reason for us to reclaim it now and make it mean what we want it to!

Ellis - I think one of the reasons a lot of stuff is focused on "classical" druidry is because the tiny amount of written accounts we have all relate to this period and written texts are easy to work with. But don't forget the fact that stonehenge is used as a druid space means we are also celebrating the proto-druid period.

[Lily]

People who have been in the pagan scene for a while have probably even less trouble to use the word than african americans using "nigger" for themselves (surely your use of the word "negro" was completely unintentional *cough*?)

Yes, we have woken up and decided that being a druid in this day and age is possible, and most if not all will openly admit that we are not doing the same thing as our ancestors in the iron age. But if you look around the OBOD website and read up a bit more on the current stream of thinking, you will see it is a vibrant and valid spirituality.
You say yourself, and surely this must come from your own and well-read voice of authority, that druidry transcends time and age.

"CHRISTIAN DRUID"?! Or an "Atheist Druid"? Man oh man ....

There is no need to paint a dead horse with a broad brush

philosophers, clergy, GREAT poets, story tellers, MAGICIANS (the real kind), doctors .

Many here are. You'd be surprised.


And since you have boldly ventured into the "Skeptical Druid" subforum (where you surely also read the introductory stickies) -

How is "neo-druidism false"?
Please elaborate.

[DaRC]

<looks under the bridge> I'm having a "De tre bukkene Bruse" moment.

[Huathe]

Is druidism pagan? I think it originally was. The ancient ones were pagan judging by what little we know of them. Now? Certainly not. I think paganism still dominates it but other religious paths, or lack of has found a place within modern druidism as well.

And concerning Christian Druids, they go back a long way too. The early Christian Monks who decided to follow St. Patrick were in fact Pagan Druids who converted and became the first Christian Druids. They recorded many of the Celtic tales we know of and love today. The pagan druids of old were of an oral tradition and rarely wrote down anything.