ETHICS & VALUES IN DRUIDISM

[Shiwan]

Thanks for your answers... but one more question: what about vegetarianism?

[DJ Droood]

Thanks for your answers... but one more question: what about vegetarianism?

I can't cite sources, so take this with a grain of sea salt, but I remember reading in a Jean Markale book that vegitarians, in the 18th Century, used to be called "Pythagorians", as the Pythagorians of Ancient times purportedly didn't eat meat....and Ancient writers made links between the philosophy of the Druids and the Pythagorians....that is a very thin thread, that can easily be snapped, but perhaps something to research further? There are, of course, stories of the Druids having rituals that involved chewing on hunks of meat and wrapping themselves in the hides of bulls, but who knows? Maybe they only used meat ritually. I, personally,, think vegitarianism is an ethical choice, more so than the factory farm death machine many of us, including myself, currently use.

[Oneonine]

A code of ethics seems like a tall order. You'de never find a group that fitted you! Too many variables. I couldn't even find a partner like that - let alone a group. Successful marriages seem based on basic similarity with compramises, not total agreement in everything. Then again I'm single and not a member of any druid groups - so I'm on the outside looking in, as it were. I'm the last person anyone should listen to.

Personally, I have no problems with a code of conduct for group memberships, though. It's a basic requirement of membership to most things, for all the obvious and sensible reasons that you never should have to say - but say anyway because experience has taught you better.

When there's trouble - having a code of conduct makes the mediator's job a hell of a lot easier too.

Accepting and being accepted by a Druid group is easier on both sides if there is a code of conduct to refer to.

If a person does something which reflects badly on a group, a code of conduct not adhered to can exhonerate the group, as long as they act upon the infringement, and not cover it up. Likewise, it can be a nail in the group's coffin, if they let it.

Even so.

It doesn't stop me being a druid if I forgo druid groups, and their individual codes of conduct.

It doesn't mean I don't have a personal code of conduct of my own.

It just means people will have to ask if they want to know.

Personally, I embrace other distinctly druid and celtic practices, where I can find them, and where they seem to make sense as just and right in today's world. So like most, I expect, the Triads and Brehon Law are my area of research when looking for druid distinctiveness within my ethical beliefs.

So yeah, I would say a basic code of conduct would be as good thing. For a group. Get one that kicks ass and it will probably become widely adopted, like the Druid's Prayer. Eventually though you'll get the "so and so isn't a real druid because they don't use the code, the prayer, whatever...." scenario. So asking if you should have one, and be spreading it beyond the group, is also a good question to ponder.... If it were me making a suggestion for a group, I'd put it to them to copyright a code of conduct to just that group, stating it is the basic code of conduct of your group only, to save forcing the issue on others... but that's just my opinion.

And the stress of wondering what was the best way to vote is probably why I'm not in a group. Easy to talk the talk if you aren't walking the walk, I guess. But those are my thoughts, looking in.

[wolf560]

Hmmmm.....Tough one....

One the one hand there is a need for a "right and left limit", basic guidelines at least
(e.g. You should not involve blood in any form in rituals)
On the other hand I've seen far too many scolded or worse for seemingly minor infractions (e.g. What Element is "North" and does it have to always be that way).

"Fir Flathemon"= The Truth in Sovereignity
The concept that leaders should tell the truth at all times or be stripped of their right to rule by the Druids that held up the Fenachas or Brehons Laws.

Not sure how that equates to us meat-eaters, so.....
.....I'm off to McDonalds for a Quarter-pounder with cheese..!!!!

[Oneonine]

Looking through the threads on the recent TDN recognition as a Druid Religious Charity, with the whole labelling and defining thing, I began to think back to this thread again too, as this is where I first began to think about such labels.

I've come to the conclusion it's easier to be defined and get on with it than to be marginalised and undefined.

Then again, I've done the easy thing.... LOL

[dvawlqos]

I don't see a problem in writing down simple statements of ethics. I see them as a framework to start from, not a dogmatic list. I think having such a thing as written ideals at least for me gives me a "jumping off point". I use Havamal as a discription of the Norse understanding of Ghosti, or the Delphic Maxims as a way to understand Greek ethical thought. It's not a Thus sayeth the gods thing, but a way to say "this is what we used to think about these issues, and we can reason from these to either a more general understanding or to a more specific idea" No philosophy can be debated without a starting point, a premise. I think in any ethical system, you ought to start with the oldest ideas so you start with ethics for people who had to deal with the consequences of said ethics.

[Al Hakim]

We all were brought up with a pile of ethic rules, and most of them turned out well. Druidry - as I see it - allows me to browse through the set of rules, to erase those that have turned out useless so far and to accept new ones. This learning process, however, does happen consciously, while - being a child -I just was "programmed".
Al Hakim

[Canu Taliesin]

To question one's bottom line (no, not your a*se crack) is a valuable way of defining your ethics. What will you stand for? What will you physically attempt to obstruct? What will you fight for? What will you die for? These are always revealing, and will always force you to re-assess a code or belief you were never quite sure of, and even some you thought you were. If taken seriously, these questions are also a sure fire recipe for making radicals, which could be a good thing considering the current state of affairs.

[Muddy Fox]

I tend to stand and fight and confront for my own, the misfits, the rejects, the oddballs, the looked down upon. Referring to your signature, I speak well in anger,I shoot from the hip and the adrenaline takes a hold. That's got me into trouble a few times, the words come before the brain is in gear. But put me in front of a formal group, where you have to project and formulate and engage the audience and I am a quivering, sweating wreck.
Public speaking was never a strong point but reaching phobic levels after I was called to the witness box in a crown court case. Something to address or something to avoid? Write instead!

[Canu Taliesin]

Or bring the part of you which fires your anger into your moment of speaking. Joining up all those parts of us that arent usually present in the speaking brings all of you into your words. It's what all good performers do. Their presence is exactly that, they are fully present.

[Gunslinger]

New here and studying Druidism.
So far I see the original Druids as a regional Jedi type group who acted as an authoritative figure. I mention the Jedi of Star Wars because I think they are a great representation of the Druids. They were these powerful mystical figures who stepped in when the situation called for them. The moral and ethics of the Druids were likely flexible and depended largely on the situation at hand. It took them 20 some years to become a full Druid, maybe longer.
Id imagine they were trained not to follow a written set of law, something we do know they did not do, and instead were taught to think their way through complex problems. And whatever was best for them and the world was always the goal of said problem solving.

[wtx001]

I find irony In The rules that push adherence to society. What if the society we are forced to live in is unhealthy or unatural?

[DebMc]

Emma's spirit shines so brightly. I admire her so much and it's lovely to see Philip open with a quote from her.

This is a set of principles that I can wholeheartedly affirm, knowing what a stimulating challenge it will be to live up to.

Thank you for a wise and considered statement.

Deb

[Whitemane]

I find irony In The rules that push adherence to society. What if the society we are forced to live in is unhealthy or unatural?

An ethical code does not force you to conform to a society. It defines your behavior, and can be independent of a social context you find unhealthy, unnatural, or just plain wrong.

I've been there and done that, and I think you'll find that a lot of OBODies are here because their own code of ethics is in conflict with the society around them.

[treegod]

I agree with you, Whitemane; I think there is a conflict between what I view as right and what is generally accepted by society. My conscience of right or wrong - a feeling, not a set of rules - is what guides me, and I think that's something innate to most if not all humans, though we may not recognise it (i.e. we have been trained by society not to pay attention to it).

[wtx001]

I find irony In The rules that push adherence to society. What if the society we are forced to live in is unhealthy or unatural?

An ethical code does not force you to conform to a society. It defines your behavior, and can be independent of a social context you find unhealthy, unnatural, or just plain wrong.

I've been there and done that, and I think you'll find that a lot of OBODies are here because their own code of ethics is in conflict with the society around them.

I agree with Treegod, but thank you Whitemane for clarifying. I was concerned for those few rules because of the damage certain societies do. What bothers me the most is how nobody either can or will do anything about it. Nature itself can not exist in balance with the damage our race does and we can not exist without nature(everyone knows this). So what happens now? Somebody, Druid or not, tell me what the purpose of our message is if nobody is willing to listen. I'm not angry or anything, just genuinely confused.

[Whitemane]

To quote the Bard ( that bard):

Above all, to thine own self be true.
Then, as surely as night must follow day,
Thou canst not be false to any man.

Not sure if I got the quote (from Hamlet) completely right, but what it means is that you stand by your beliefs and lead by example. Maybe you can change a couple of minds, and that is an achievement.

Also, if you're going to focus on a particular topic, research it extremely deeply, and research all sides of a topic. Look at government reports, academic journals, attend talks by experts, and write to them asking for further reading. Even if you find the counter arguments distasteful, research them too.

[wtx001]

This is true. To be honest, I gave up on the idea of the entire population living in harmony with nature a while ago. Perhaps, changing a few minds each generation might eventually work. I just worry it will be too late. Regardless, despite my endless confusion, this code still makes sense. Thank you.

[DebMc]

To quote the Bard ( that bard):

Above all, to thine own self be true.
Then, as surely as night must follow day,
Thou canst not be false to any man.

Not sure if I got the quote (from Hamlet) completely right, but what it means is that you stand by your beliefs and lead by example. Maybe you can change a couple of minds, and that is an achievement...

Whitemane, I have always understood this quotation differently - as a call to be honest with oneself. If you don't lie to yourself, then you don't present a false face to the world. Which, for me,sits rather nicely with:
"10. Uphold the Truth, starting with yourself.
"11. Be sure in your convictions, particularly when judging or accusing someone, but also when debating. Ask yourself: are you really sure? Do you really know that this the case?"

And, when I read:
"3. You do still live in society and are bound by its rules...", to me, this means that we can't set ourselves above the communities to which we belong and in which we are nourished and protected. It doesn't follow, as I understand it, that where these communities fail in their function, they can't be challenged and changed. Instead, it points to an area of potential vulnerability: there is a tendency among spiritual groups to see themselves as 'special' and therefore exempt from the rules by which everyone else abides. An example might be crimes of Catholic priests, which some in their church's hierarchy consider not crimes but sins, to be judged by god, not society.

Or consider: quite apart from my horror as a mild-mannered lentil-burger-eater at hearing this... I was once stunned to be told by a local pagan gal that a particular group she belonged to often went hunting with spears, regardless of local hunting laws... errrm... because as it was their spiritual right.... Now I didn't in fact believe her on this one - Salt Spring is home to all manner of flakes, myself included - but the attitude is worrying, I think.

What do you think?

Blessings on the occasion of the 'New Moon in June',

Deb

[Aoife]

I didn't read all the comments, so I have no idea if this has already been asked, but does the the sacredness of life extend to being anti-abortion?
I know it's a tough issue and many people are divided on that subject, but personally I am pro-choice and I don't believe it to be seriously out of line with our ethnics. In my mind you need to consider the consequences of keeping a child you aren't ready for. Consider the quality of life you could provide.