End of days in 2012?

[DJ Droood]

How do people imagine the apocalypse - as a kind of ragnarok / a reforming of all that is/ or as a literal end? i get the feeling that most assume that the world will eist in muxch the same form as it is now allowing us to rely on skills and bushcraft etc to survive. thoughts?

Well that is a good question...I think we are probably discussing 2 or more types of End Times...if it were a comet smashing into the earth, or some other extinction event, all the canned beans in the world wouldn't help...I think I was thinking more along the lines of economic collapse and civil unrest....something I think is more likely...in which case we would have to depend on our own wits, as well as the network of relationships we have built (our friends and neighbours) to survive...one thing Katrina taught is that government is entirely incapable of stepping in to save the day during a major disaster....although things like riots and natural disasters are short term...eventually, it will end, or you can make your way to safety. I think the violence and looting associated with those phenomena are a result of panic and a symptom of a broken society to begin with.....in a long term situation, that spasm of hauling away flat screen TVs and using the power vacuum to settle scores would wain and then everybody would come out of hiding and start working together....they would have to.

But like Atrius said, it depends on your locale...I look around where I live, and I see a city with good will, good integration of various ethnic groups and no history of harsh injustice or tradition of solving problems with gun violence...I think my people could pull it together...but it might be a different story if there are already sharp divisions of race and class and astonishing levels of gun violence even during normal times.

And speaking of cities, there won't be any hunting where I am, or if there is, the poor deer and squirrels would disappear fast...I think you would see all those pretty manicured lawns and parks turned into crop land, and people would have chickens in their courtyards and a thriving barter-economy would get set up.

[Aitrus]

But like Atrius said, it depends on your locale...I look around where I live, and I see a city with good will, good integration of various ethnic groups and no history of harsh injustice or tradition of solving problems with gun violence...I think my people could pull it together...but it might be a different story if there are already sharp divisions of race and class and astonishing levels of gun violence even during normal times.

And speaking of cities, there won't be any hunting where I am, or if there is, the poor deer and squirrels would disappear fast...I think you would see all those pretty manicured lawns and parks turned into crop land, and people would have chickens in their courtyards and a thriving barter-economy would get set up.

That's a lot like where I'm at - more-or-less peaceful community, a minimum of violence for a city this size (although due to the number of thugs and gangs, self-protection is higher on the list than other places), and hunting/croplands all around us.

One of the earlier podcasts on http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/ had a guest interview. During the winter of '08-'09, there was a fierce ice storm that coated much of Kentucky in layer upon layer of ice. Power lines came down, etc. Huge swaths of the state were without power for weeks in the dead of winter. The interviewee discussed his experiences while living there during that time. A few of the things he said stuck with me:

- Store owners would open their doors for only one person to shop at a time, and then only for a set amount of time to shop. One person would escort the person around the store while another stood guard at the front door with a shotgun. The shopper was allowed to pay in cash only. The store didn't jack up prices, and there was a limit on how many of any particular item the shopper could buy (can't buy out all the hotdogs and chili, etc.).
- Water lines were down, so there was lots of melting of snow and ice. Those without fireplaces or wood stoves had to make homemade stoves and gather firewood.
- Generators were worth their weight in gold. They had to be chained down or otherwise secured or they would be stolen. The interviewee was constantly listening for the generator to stop as this would inform him when it was being stolen. The generator was still stolen because the thieves filled a lawnmower half-full of gas, left it running in the same spot as the generator, used a hacksaw to remove the chain, and the mower ran for another 30 min before dying. The generator was used to charge batteries, so the power loss to the home wasn't immediate.

[Al Hakim]

to predict the day of the end of the world will be a problem to whoever tries it. It seems safer to talk about possible reasons that could lead to such. I believe, it won't be comet or mini-planet, or civil unrest. One of the most likely scenarios are viral infections of something fatal to "homo sapiens". Just consider the different flus we experienced during the last few years, avian flu, bird flu and so forth. Wat if there is a new virus coming up to only infect humanides and spread a deadly infectious disease?? We would all be helpless...
Al Hakim

[Twyrch]

The Mayan Wheel was interesting but like most things, it's uses have been taken out of context.

http://www.sciencebuzz.org/topics/mayan ... -real-deal

I agree with DJ Drood in that I believe there will be a world-wide economic collapse. Many people throughout the ages have predicted something like this happening, but no one knows when it will eventually happen. With the way the European markets are behaving, and countries like Greece and the US going down the path of bankruptcy, I have no doubt that the world's economy will implode soon because of how tied together everyone's economy is to other countries around the world.

It's for that reason my wife and I purchased a house on a 1/2 acre of land, so we can grow our own food, if we need to. Plenty of room for a small garden, fruit trees and even chickens. We'll see where the world takes us before we start stocking up on MREs though.

[Al Hakim]

I guess the recommended preparations for any desaster are worldwide similar. But - as for the end of the world - why should I prepare for a future that does not exist?
Al Hakim

[Astrid]

Maybe the whole preperations aspect dosn't seem so pressing to us "North Europeans" because we dont really have natural disasters in the same way that the states and Canada has? Excluding the recent riots in the U.K. we dont really have big bloody civil unrest in that way either...

To me preparing seems like a completly redundant act at this point. I need to focus that energy in the present I live in - I dont feel threatented in that way by the future - all though I'm sure if i did i would find bags and stock most comforting too

But here in Scandinavia we dont have earthquakes, tsunamies, etc etc. of course we have crime and gang violance but nothing that affects you unless you are directly invovled

It is completly foreign to be this whole idea of preparing for the end. I'm not saying there is any right or wrong here I'm just sort of amazed by the difference in mentality

[DJ Droood]

Maybe the whole preperations aspect dosn't seem so pressing to us "North Europeans" because we dont really have natural disasters in the same way that the states and Canada has? Excluding the recent riots in the U.K. we dont really have big bloody civil unrest in that way either...

interesting...maybe in North America it is a hold-over from the pioneer mentality, where you had to make do for yourself for everything...get your family through the winter....it isn't that many generations back for many of us. It might be a "winter" thing too....they can be long, dark and brutal over here.

[Astrid]

Maybe the whole preperations aspect dosn't seem so pressing to us "North Europeans" because we dont really have natural disasters in the same way that the states and Canada has? Excluding the recent riots in the U.K. we dont really have big bloody civil unrest in that way either...

interesting...maybe in North America it is a hold-over from the pioneer mentality, where you had to make do for yourself for everything...get your family through the winter....it isn't that many generations back for many of us. It might be a "winter" thing too....they can be long, dark and brutal over here.

Well I think at least Norway and Northern-Sweden can give you a good run for you money on the winter part But maybe it is as you say the pioneer mentality breaking through - Maybe its somthing that has gotten lodged in your cultural memory. So there is a value in the society that emergency preperations is somthing that you at a bare minimum should have an opinion about. Pioneers was up against Nature in litteral sense that europeans havn't been for centuries.
Because even though it is not that long ago that nature was a huge factor in europe (in terms of good harvest/bad harvest) it was still sort of within the "system". We're more focused on fighting poverty (Get a god education, job, etc.) because, as said, it has been centuries since we were in that kind og "survive nature mode"
So if somthing disasterous happened tomorrow in europe that in effect took out this system we would be, excuse my french, SCREWED! I mean why do you think European people go so cray when the system fails them? Riots in England over lack of jobs, Car burnings and shooting in france for cutting in educational support - and greeks almost putting there country in a state of emergency for voting through reforms where the only other options is immediate bankrupt?
It is because we depend on our beloved wellfare system to be there - and granted we are masters at navigating it! But if you take away the system? People loose their minds because the have only learnt the survival skills of the system and not the survival skills of nature

But I digress

[Twyrch]

If i were in charge of the department of Homeland Security, we'd have a heightened-states-of-awareness system in this country, that's for sure, but we'd have one that made sense and one that the fine citizins of this country understood and we would have two heightened-states-of-awareness; go find a helmet. put on the ****ing helmet.

Gotta love Ron White....

[Al Hakim]

Thanks Astrid,
for pointing out that the "pioneer and frontier" feeling is a nice remembrance but no answer to modern needs. The last human catastrophes took place in Europe in the late 1940th, after WW II, with people starving. The later economic problems turned a few persons into poor ones - and they were usually held by their social welfare systems. However, what can we do against new germs? Nothing, I am afraid. We should not forget that the European plague epidemics (14th century) killed about one third of the whole population wwithin ten years, let alone what transmittable diseases did to the Mayas and Aztecs a bit later. So, let's be afraid of virusses not the lack of money.
Al Hakim

[DJ Droood]

Thanks Astrid,
for pointing out that the "pioneer and frontier" feeling is a nice remembrance but no answer to modern needs.

I think a "pioneer" spirit of self-reliance might be an answer to modern needs, especially if your virus scenario materialized and you were one of the lucky 1/3 to survive. (it isn't really a nice remembrance either, if you've heard first hand stories of the times before modern medicine and government assistance...probably not very much like the cowboy movies you may have seen.)

So, let's be afraid of virusses not the lack of money.

An extinction-level plague may have some sort of impact on the economy...

[Canu Taliesin]

2012 or 2013 (there are different interpretations) are, according to the respective traditions which name these dates as portentous, times of greatest potential for great change.

Some things can only be done at the right time. We know that when we want to plant seeds we generally have to wait for spring,and when we want to reap the best harvest we must wait for autumn. Just as the Earth has this yearly cycle of seasons, there are greater cosmic cycles of which the earth is part, when there are optimal times for a different kind of sowing and harvesting. The Mayan calender (also supported by work done with the I Ching) marks these greater seasons.

Remember, this is still a living tradition, forget the hype the crazed western psyche has thrown up in response. What the keepers of this tradition are telling us is that this is a moment of great potential. Just as spring time provides the best conditions for the growth of new life, this time brings all the potential for changing the collective dream of humanity. Do we continue down the path of the military-industrial complex, enslaving each other and the planet to the nightmare of rampant capitalism, or do we change and begin to honour the life we share with our Mother, the Earth, and all of her children?

The talk of prophecy in terms of "we're all doomed!" is a childish abdication of our responsibility as self-determining beings. We have the choice: a teacher I trust told me the worst that could happen is that nothing happens in the coming years. The worst that can happen is that we continue to degrade our own environment beyond the possibility of repair (a moment which some scientists believe may be upon us already).

The bardic tradition of Wales has this understanding of prophecy. It is only ever a guide to potentials. The promotion of prophecy is a political act. It addresses the fundamental truth that we create our reality. If we promote the idea of a given future it is more likely to become manifest. If the collective belief in apocalypse subdues all other beliefs, that is what is most likely to happen. If the belief in the continuation of things as they are dominates the collective, we will not change course. If the hope in real, meaningful change blossoms, then we may finally achieve some collective honour in the way we live with our wider family: the plants, the animals and the Earth herself.

Prophecy is a prosess of sowing and reaping potentials, and of signaling the greater seasons of those potentials. It is a powerful tool of shaping human futures, yet we shouldn't abdicate all our responsibility to it. That would be to miss the point. There are moments in time when achieving the greatest of changes becomes very easy, but if we don't make the most of those opportunities, we find ourselves reaping a poor harvest down the line. We need to remember how to co-create with the seasons and cycles of the cosmos, that is what the Mayan tradition is telling us.

[DJ Droood]

The bardic tradition of Wales has this understanding of prophecy. It is only ever a guide to potentials. The promotion of prophecy is a political act. It addresses the fundamental truth that we create our reality. If we promote the idea of a given future it is more likely to become manifest. If the collective belief in apocalypse subdues all other beliefs, that is what is most likely to happen. If the belief in the continuation of things as they are dominates the collective, we will not change course. If the hope in real, meaningful change blossoms, then we may finally achieve some collective honour in the way we live with our wider family: the plants, the animals and the Earth herself.

Yes, i agree with your post Canu...I doubt if many people take these "End of the World" prophecies very seriously, in a literal sense....I think we actually enjoy a "scary story", sort of like Y2K (here is an old documentary showing how silly people were around that time http://youtu.be/ayBcDVQa4bQ ) It is a form of entertainment...but a positive result is it get's some people thinking about self-determination and self-reliance, and what are the basics to survive in the world, beyond assuming a government truck will show up and save you from a disaster, or there will always be bread on the shelves of the nearby grocery store.

[Muddy Fox]

I think those are very wise words Canu Taliesin. Propehcy as a tool for change, it did not go well for Jonah did it?
However as you say we need to learn to live in harmony with nature and the cosmos and from my vantage point there are not all that many people who are thinking along those lines. Maybe someone, somewhere, up there, the powers that be, thought drastic economic cuts and job shortges would wake up the masses to our present predicament, and look at the lives we have created around us "the system" to which we are all enslaved. And although we have had the riots, again, as we did in the 80s under a conservative government, I do not on the whole see a shift in consciousness. The main shift I have seen in the last ten years has been with the new age love and lighters and here Druid/pagans but I think they are a minority. Most people in everyday life look at you as though you are from another planet if you attempt to discuss such subjects as I have here and in New age circles.
So if we are the viruses on the planet, the planet can do without us and maybe the "Apocolypse" will be nature raising up in protest and maybe some humans will survive here and there and they will have to start again living in harmony with nature and the universe.
Prophecy as a tool for change or maybe we do not have as much control as we like to think we have. Dunno!

[Canu Taliesin]

I agree we should look to our own resources, even without drastic change the outlook suggests supermarket living is incredibly harmful on many levels, and will most likely betray consumers somewhere down the line.

I do also believe we are far more powerful than we suspect. We are all threads within the great web of the collective consciouness. Some of us at times can also be nexus points where many of those threads intersect. We all influence and are influenced by that conscious web. If we can maintain our integrity while still maintaining a functioning place within that web we begin to influence the many myriad networks we are part of. We can change, and we can prompt others to change also.

That posses some questions: what does it mean to change? how is that change achieved in a meaningful way? what can we become once we have made the choice?

[Twyrch]

I was talking to my Grandpa this weekend about WW2 and his experiences in China. He told me that he was working in the finance office of his ship, in charge of payroll. One of the Lt. Colonels of his unit swore the world was going to end on August 30, 1945 and many of the other men believed it as well. My grandpa, being the man that he is, told them, "Fine. If the world is going to end, I guess I don't need to bother with your payroll for this month." That changed everyone's mind quickly... apparently they didn't believe in the end of the world so much as to forgo a paycheck.

[Muddy Fox]

Maintaining a functional place within the web is quite difficult if you feel you are a nexus point. The antgonism from others is a huge prolem and can become a cause for concern and it is mentally and emotionally exhausting.
I was only saying yesterday if I could take everything good from Christianity and merge it with New Age love and light/freedom to be yourself with a great big dollop of paganism and the respect for all life non human as well, we might be onto something.
But in the last lot of riots what did people steal? I don't think The Body,Mind and Spirit section of Waterstones was hit too hard. Wide screen televisions ect...so everyone is asleep and I was asleep for a long time. The modern human condition is one of seeking comfort, comfort in everything, my own comfort before the next man's. I don't know the answer , I don't think there is one.

[Mountainheart]

I don't know the answer , I don't think there is one.

For me the answer is to live for the moment: enjoy today for today because tomorrow I may be dead in a car crash; struck down with cancer etc etc. But *today* I am happy, well fed, enjoying a glass of wine. Why spoil today by worrying about tomorrow?

Thx
David

[DJ Droood]

Why spoil today by worrying about tomorrow?

I worry about my kid's future sometimes though...but I am still enjoying some home-made Shiraz!

[Aitrus]

I don't know the answer , I don't think there is one.

For me the answer is to live for the moment: enjoy today for today because tomorrow I may be dead in a car crash; struck down with cancer etc etc. But *today* I am happy, well fed, enjoying a glass of wine. Why spoil today by worrying about tomorrow?

Thx
David

Look to the lesson of the Grasshopper and the Ant for the answer to this one. DJ has it right - You don't need to obsess about tomorrow, but you can't forget about it either. Balance, both in thinking about tomorrow and about enjoying today, guides my actions.

Well I think at least Norway and Northern-Sweden can give you a good run for you money on the winter part

I know what you mean. I'm from Central Alaska. The seasons in that part of the world: Early Winter; Winter; Still Winter; Mud, Mosquitoes and Construction.

So there is a value in the society that emergency preperations is somthing that you at a bare minimum should have an opinion about. Pioneers was up against Nature in litteral sense that europeans havn't been for centuries.
Because even though it is not that long ago that nature was a huge factor in europe (in terms of good harvest/bad harvest) it was still sort of within the "system". We're more focused on fighting poverty (Get a god education, job, etc.) because, as said, it has been centuries since we were in that kind og "survive nature mode"
So if somthing disasterous happened tomorrow in europe that in effect took out this system we would be, excuse my french, SCREWED! I mean why do you think European people go so cray when the system fails them? Riots in England over lack of jobs, Car burnings and shooting in france for cutting in educational support - and greeks almost putting there country in a state of emergency for voting through reforms where the only other options is immediate bankrupt?
It is because we depend on our beloved wellfare system to be there - and granted we are masters at navigating it! But if you take away the system? People loose their minds because the have only learnt the survival skills of the system and not the survival skills of nature

But I digress

I think that Europeans must still be prepared to face Nature. Power failures in the middle of winter, closing up of supply lines due to political or economic upheaval, sudden loss of oil availability, you lose your job and can't make a penny for months, etc. Not all emergency situations arise from Nature herself.

For those that do, facing an apartment fire is an emergency situation, as is being stranded in another city or country for weeks while some volcano dumps ash all over the place and gridlocks air or ground traffic. In the former, you've got to rebuild from scratch and that will cost you. In the latter, you might not be back to your job for a considerable amount of time. If you're living paycheck to paycheck, you might survive, but you won't be happy while you do it.

Preparedness is more than just "End of the World" thinking, it also encompasses things that are closer to reality as well.