Euthanasia/Suicide

[Twyrch]

This topic is being created because of conversations we had on the Death Penalty thread in Current Events.

I really don't know where I stand on this and was hoping we could have a rational, civilized discussion, showing each person respect despite the various beliefs or positions that will be held. How do you all feel about a person's choice to end their own life either with or without the assistance of another human being?

When discussing this topic, my thoughts turn to Dr. Jack Kevorkian who assisted people in ending their own life and was judged as a murderer for it. I also think about my grandparents who were terminally ill, but had to suffer for years until their mind and body gave out and they died without knowing who they were or who their family was.

I am extremely torn on this.

On the one hand, life is precious and I feel the taking of a life should be limited to War or the most evil murders who cannot be rehabilitated.

On the other hand, I also feel that a person's life and how they live it is their own choice and no one has a right to tell another person how to live or end their life.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, but I'm leaning toward yes, life is precious but it is also up to a person how they choose to live or end their life. As long as their death doesn't bring others to harm, no person or government should forbid how a person chooses to end it.

What are your thoughts?

[White Star]

My maternal grandmother took her own life at the age of 92. She was a very active and spritely lady until the last few years when she gradually began to lose her sight and hearing. She could not see to read or watch tv properly and felt her last two pleasures in life she was capable of were sliiping away from her. Her mind was still sound and I am sure she just made the decision in a controlled and stable way. She was a loving but tough old lady and she was as in control of her death as she had been of her life.
Having seen my sisters and brother and father in law waste away horribly from cancer over the years I have said to myself I don't want to die like that. I tseems easy and right to say kill me before I get to that state but would I have the strength and courage to let a doctor put me to sleep forever? I don't know. I don't know if I would be strong enough to end my own life either. One thing I have noticed with people who are terminally ill is a calm acceptance of what is happening, almost a hidden knowledge somewhere inside them.
I kissed my brother the last time I saw him. I hope he waits and kisses me when it's my turn. His passing is the most recent and it hurts.

Blessings

[Hennie]

Over here euthanasia -meaning 'the good death"- is legal. That is to say when a person is suffering 'unbearably' and this opinion is supported by two doctors, than this person will be euthanized(on his time and place of course). Problem is that you have to be compos mentis when you ask for help to die and in some diseases, like Dementia, when you can still express yourself, you are mostly not ready to die and when you really would like to die, you can't express yourself anymore. Our lawmakers are working on this.
Aided suicide is a no go. The reason :if one is really that ill we have our euthanasia option. But of course there are people who are not incurable ill and suffering unbearably, who still don't like their lives anymore. It is known that in such cases many doctors just give some advice on how people could commit suicide, but they won't provide the drugs. People have to do that themselves.

[Reyna]

I have not, nor would not, let an animal suffer and be in pain just so I can say its 'alive'. Why would I do that for my friends? My family? Myself?

Quality of life, to me, trumps life itself.

What are you gaining if you are in so much pain you can barely think, let alone do something, or be with friends/family? Sure, if that pain is temporary you could suffer through but what if that's all you've got for the rest of your life? Pain and lots of bottles and subscriptions to take the edge off? Or heavy drugs that make you a zombie so your already dead, just still breathing?

What are you gaining if your mind is so lost that every person you meet is a stranger? Every place your in is new and scary? What if everyday you live in utter fear because you have no idea who you are, who they are, what anything is?? (Dementia/Alzheimers/etc is hard since the person can't say, I've had enough, I'm ready to go. If its me I would want to go, even if I couldn't say it. I wouldn't want to spend the rest of life in utter fear.)

Death isn't the end, so for me it isn't difficult to accept it (but then, I have technically died, stopped heart and all that jazz so maybe I've just got all my fears over with). To me, its selfish to force a person to stay alive when they don't want too, when there is no hope for them to live comfortable and happy, and when they have made peace with themselves and are ready to go.

[Muddy Fox]

I have started a debate on this particular subject on another Druid forum a couple of years ago and if I remember correctly it got quite heated with lots of mud slinging, generally in my direction.
Emotive, definitely.
I have a relative with alzheimers and have seen the terror and awfulness of it, and have been into nursing homes,and worked in them, I see the agony of the sufferer and their families.
Suicide, again, I have seen the devastation of that, and the aftermath it leaves with those who are left behind.
I can look at these issues in a number of ways, from a Christian viewpoint I would say that everything is in God's hands, life, we do not remember where we were before this life, we do not remember asking to be born into this life, therefore we have no control over life and death as we did not grant oursleves life. God is the ultimate source of all life and can give and take life.
As a believer in reincarnation I could say that we were aware of ourselves in pre-existence and chose our lives for oursleves, suffering and illness as well, all part and parcel. Maybe we have karmic debts and ties and we decided to pay back and honour those. However it is a bit like starting a university degree and you realise the work load is too high and you cannot stay on course, so you quit. And God is the tutor encouraging you to stirve to attain those grades, but if you fail, you can try again, or try a different course of action, go into the work place, or study elsewhere. My father has many mansions and so on.
Personally I do not feel I could take a life in any circumstance again. I had my elderley Jack Russell put to sleep a few years ago because she was riddled with cancer and I held her as she was injected and it felt wrong, as though I had stepped over a boundary, and I felt like a murderer.

[Twyrch]

@ Angelique11,

I know this topic can become highly emotional. That's why I asked everyone to keep this civil and respectful.

I have seen my grandparents deteriorate before my eyes. My grandmother had congestive heart failure and it was a struggle for her to take every breath. Once she died, my grandfather who had been on dialysis for 5 years finally gave up. He sat a window in his nursing home and just stared outside. He gave up on life and over the next 5 months, had to be forced food because he wouldn't feed himself. He had a DNR and when his heart stopped, my uncle had him revived despite the DNR because he said my grandfather didn't really want that. He ended up with dementia and stopped recognizing anyone. I saw him in the hospital one month before he died, right before another dialysis treatment and while I held his hand, he just stared into space. Finally, for about 3 seconds, he looked at me and recognized me and those 3 seconds meant the world to me.

Currently, my other grandmother has the final stages of Parkinson's and dementia. She doesn't even remember that her father died (he died in the late 1930's) but she remembers my grandpa but thinks she's only dating him (they were married in 1964). My father has seizures 3x a week and has lost his short-term memory. He has a TIA about once or twice a month. He remembers me, but doesn't even remember when I came up last (in May for his birthday). She thinks of me as a baby (born in 1977) and has no clue who my son or wife is.

I don't know what to think, seriously. I know that if my father or grandma killed themselves or requested to be put to sleep, the way animals are put to sleep, I would be devastated to lose them, but wouldn't I be devastated anyway once they die of natural causes? And wouldn't I rather see them go out on their own terms, rather than lose their mind and dignity?

[Muddy Fox]

I'm sorry to hear that Twyrch. It is heartbreaking to watch those that you love and know suffer. I have seem my auntie go from a vibrant, full of life, avid reading book lover into a shell of the person she once was through alzheimers. She cannot speak coherently, has no recognition of any family, and doesn't know who or where she is. She has no quality of life.
It's hard. You can go to the other end of the spectrum and the beginnings of life, with babies that are born with dsiabilities, mental and physical and they will never have the quality of life that you and I have had. A lifetime of suffering in front of them, and their families, so would you then condone euthanasia for those babies? Because then we are on very dangerous ground over what is considered to be a worthy life.

[Hennie]

You are twisting the discussion Angelique. We are talking about full grown, even old people, who after a life-time of living decide for themselves that it has been enough.

[Twyrch]

I'm sorry to hear that Twyrch. It is heartbreaking to watch those that you love and know suffer. I have seem my auntie go from a vibrant, full of life, avid reading book lover into a shell of the person she once was through alzheimers. She cannot speak coherently, has no recognition of any family, and doesn't know who or where she is. She has no quality of life.
It's hard. You can go to the other end of the spectrum and the beginnings of life, with babies that are born with dsiabilities, mental and physical and they will never have the quality of life that you and I have had. A lifetime of suffering in front of them, and their families, so would you then condone euthanasia for those babies? Because then we are on very dangerous ground over what is considered to be a worthy life.

I think in those cases, I would only condone it if that is their choice. I don't feel a parent should kill their child, however, just because the child has special needs.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-15/just ... s=PM:CRIME

We are also on a slippery slope when we start allowing the government to decide how a person can live their life, or choose their death. Before long, this can extend to Living Wills and DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) Orders.

Like most issues, there is no black and white answer to this, but shades of gray. I don't know what position to take still and may never know. Perhaps its a personal choice and decision based on a case by case basis, but I tend to lean toward not telling people how to live their life, or end it.

[Muddy Fox]

Likewise Twyrch, I don't tell people how to do anything at all. We are all responsible for our own actions and decisions, we have free will. We make choices and we have to live by them.
And Hennie it is not twisting the debate as it boils down to the same thing, quality of life and suffering and whether we have the right to end that suffering for ourselves or others.

[LoneWalker]

My views on this:
Suicide - there are more bad reasons to commit suicide than good ones and the effect it has on family and friends left behind is often devastating. However if I am at a point where I decide I'm faced with unmanageable pain for the rest of my life or I have no quality of life left (however I choose to define that) then I certainly don't want anyone stopping me, it would be helpful if society reached a point where it was possible to tell people close to you that that is what you were going to do and say goodbye without leaving them in a position of getting in trouble for it.

Euthanasia - I'm definitely in favour of living wills and doctors being able to provide drugs to someone who is still compos mentis enough to express the views above but no longer has the freedom or ability to take their own life independently, for tis to become legalised though we do need safeguards to minimise the opportunities for abuse of it.

Euthanasia of someone who doesn't have the ability to express their views and hasn't left guidance in the form of a living will /DNR order etc is a much more dangerous proposal and you probably can't generalise because it covers such a wide range of possible situations.

[Huathe]

All,

This is certainly a " touchy " subject.

Some have told me that a person will " go to hell " if they commit suicide. I have always questioned this. If a persons quality of life, in this case I mean mostly physical. MOSTLY. Like one living in constant pain or cancer or something really bad that appears to have no cure or no end, I think God would have great understanding on that person's reasons to take their own life. Because death in that case is better than living in misery. And especially if he/she seeks the paradise that heaven is. God sees the heart. He is loving and understanding.

On suicide because of most mental grief, I feel he wants us to come to him in prayer and ask for help. " To ask and ye shall receive ". Before giving up and killing yourself. God does help those in need, though it may not be in the way one wants and is not always what you expect. He has walked with me through much grief. I still hesitate on saying " They go to hell if they do commit suicide ". God judges each individual according to his heart. I guess people say that " Go to hell stuff " because murder is a sin and you die as a result of a self-inflicted sin. True, God hates sin but I feel he sees the person behind the sinful act. One thing is for sure. God never takes away the act of Free Will.

I support Euthanization in critical cases. We give animals the right to not suffer and why should we not give the same humane courtesy to of fellow humans? I don't think God would look at it as murder.

[Muddy Fox]

I'm probably going off on a tangent here and some Christians will not like it. I do not like the word sin but would rather replace that with karma. I also do not believe in an angry judgemental God, God is love and compassion.
I do not believe in hell,maybe there are planes of existence in spirit world that resemble descriptions of heaven and hell and each religion has described those in their own fashion. We may gravitate towards those planes after this incarnation on a purely like attracts like basis, light to light,darkness to darkness, and the only judge after this life is us, judging ourselves.

[Twyrch]

I'm probably going off on a tangent here and some Christians will not like it. I do not like the word sin but would rather replace that with karma. I also do not believe in an angry judgmental God, God is love and compassion.
I do not believe in hell,maybe there are planes of existence in spirit world that resemble descriptions of heaven and hell and each religion has described those in their own fashion. We may gravitate towards those planes after this incarnation on a purely like attracts like basis, light to light,darkness to darkness, and the only judge after this life is us, judging ourselves.

Yes, "sin" is another topic all together.

And I'll just throw this out there and let you all take it as you will... Just because we (humans) believe in something, doesn't make it true, and the opposite it also true, Just because we (humans) don't believe in something, doesn't make it untrue. I'm sure we could do a whole new thread on "truth" vs. "Truth".

But since Angelique brought up not liking the word SIN, let me just say that "mainstream" Christianity has taken the concept of sin (as they have most other teachings in the Bible) and used it to support whatever philosophy they believe in to force others to believe in God. The New Testament was written in Greek and in during the translation process, the word "Sin" was used from 7 different Greek words, each meaning something different. To truly understand what the author of a Biblical passage means by the word "sin" you must look at the original Greek word and see what that particular word for "sin" really means.

"7 WORDS FOR SIN IN THE NEW TESTAMENT"

Contrary to many modern teachings, all sin is not the same in the New Testament. There are at least 7 different Greek words for sin, each one having a different shade of meaning.

1. "Hamartia" = "To miss the mark", as in archery competition, and therefore fail to receive the prize, or blessing. This is the general Greek word for sin, and is used 221 times. "Hamartia" encompasses the other 6 words for specific sins, in the sense that in all types of sin, we are "missing the mark". Example: Heb. 12:1, KJV = "the sin (hamartia) which doeth so easily beset us".

2. "Hettema" = "Diminishing what should have been given full measure". Example: 1 Cor. 6:7, KJV = "there is a fault (hettema) among you".

3. "Paraptoma" = "Falling when one should have stood". This one is actually an unintentional slip. Example: Eph. 1:7, KJV = We have "the forgiveness of sins (paraptoma), according to the riches of His grace".

4. "Agnoeema" = "Ignorance when one should have known". Example: Heb. 9:7, KJV = "the errors (agnoeema) of the people".

5. "Parakoe" = "To refuse to hear and heed God's word". Example: 2 Cor. 10:6, KJV = "disobedience".

6. "Parabasis" = "To intentionally cross a line". Example: Heb. 2:2, KJV = "every transgression (parabasis) & disobedience (parakoe) received a just recompense of reward".

7. "Anomia" and "Paranomia" = "Lawlessness, or willfully breaking God's written rules". Example: Titus 2:14 KJV = Jesus gave himself for us in order to "redeem us from all iniquity (anomia)".

As the saying goes, you always have to know your audience. No good will come from quoting the Bible on this board. It will typically end up in thread derailment and flame wars. When discussing topics of such an emotional issue, quoting the Bible on a Druid forum is like throwing a lit match into a dry field. I only included the scripture in the quote above to illustrate a point as to the many variations of the word "sin" in translation from the Greek.

As for what Angelique was saying about Sin=Karma, I would hesitate to equate the two simply because of the definitions shown above. From my limited understanding of Karma, it is more of a cause/effect type of system. Good and Evil and will be returned 3-Fold in the same manner it was given. Sin, on the other hand, is a word in which no good can ever come from it.

I think if we want to discuss "sin" vs. "karma" further, we should start a new thread.

[Muddy Fox]

Thanks for that Twyrch, that's very interesting. I have to agree with you in that I would think that quoting the Bible here would be unproductive, and unwelcome. I'm not one really for quoting scripture at people, also when I study the Bible I have a habit of seeing a completely different interpretation than most mainstream Christians anyway.
I don't know if we would gain much from comparing the meanings of karma and sin. In my mind I always replace those words, as the word sin has a heavy condemning tone for me and most none Christians.
I think the Druid Christian section has been created on this board precisely because people do not want to discuss things of a Christian nature here. A lot seeming to come to this path because of bad experiences with Christians and Churches. Me included.
In light of the subject that is being discussed in this thread, I think we can only answer in relation to our spiritual/ personal outlook on life,and that will be different for everyone. There does not seem to have been much of a purely Pagan/spiritual viewpoint expressed in relation to the topic.For example, how The Gods/Goddesses would be involved in any decisions in relation to what we have been discussing and the afterlife from a Pagan viewpoint, though.Which I would be very interested to hear.

[Huathe]

No good will come from quoting the Bible on this board. It will typically end up in thread derailment and flame wars. When discussing topics of such an emotional issue, quoting the Bible on a Druid forum is like throwing a lit match into a dry field.

_Twyrch

I gotta good laugh outta this! Good one, Twyrch!! I have found this out the hard way, even if I was not trying to be an ass. But as a Christian-Druid I have trouble NOT mentioning the Bible or quoting stuff from it at times. God and his Bible are very much a part of my belief system and worldview. I think I have learned to " stay " my fingers from the keyboard a little better than I used to.

[Muddy Fox]

I fail to see the humour in the situation myself Hawthorn, but you know, whatever tickles your fancy. People are strange creatures, strange old creatures, in a strange old world.
It's so hard to trust people these days, even those that you meet and speak with in the flesh. I suppose it is hard to see what the true motive is behind certain statements and actions. I will have to pray about this hey Hawthorn and see if the Spirit will reveal some answers.

[Twyrch]

I fail to see the humour in the situation myself Hawthorn, but you know, whatever tickles your fancy. People are strange creatures, strange old creatures, in a strange old world.
It's so hard to trust people these days, even those that you meet and speak with in the flesh. I suppose it is hard to see what the true motive is behind certain statements and actions. I will have to pray about this hey Hawthorn and see if the Spirit will reveal some answers.

Yes, my comment was not meant as a joke, but as an instructive observation based on my years here. I try to save Bible quotes for when I'm debating Fundamentalist Christians (Fundies). I know its hard for people here to trust and accept new Druids who still cling to some aspects of their Christian heritage, because of the persecution people have received from Christians. However, if you take a step back and get to know them, you'll find that most times, we have joined the Druid Community because we have been persecuted for our own beliefs as well. My beliefs aren't welcome in the Methodist or Baptist church. I've only found "community churches" to be the only safe haven for people like me. But I digress... we could sit here and discuss this topic forever, but that's why we created the Christian-Druid sub-forum, so discussions like this could be kept in an area where people care to discuss it and they don't get so mixed in with the typical discussions.

Hawthorn, I would love to continue discussing this on the Christian-Druid forum, if you want to start a thread about anything you've seen, thought or questioned since going through your Druid studies.

Angelique, thank you for your patience and tolerance. No one here is trying to convert you to their beliefs or "push" Christianity. Hawthorn is just speaking from his experience, showing a different perspective. I know you wanted to hear about a pagan perspective as well. I think White Star, Hennie and Reyna provided theirs for us.

Getting back on track... is there anyone else who has a perspective on this?

To sum up the comments, I think the consensus is that Euthanasia is alright, as long as the person determines they don't want to suffer with a terminal illness and it isn't forced on someone. Suicide is a more touchy subject, bringing in people's religious beliefs, but ultimately, a person has the freedom to live or die as they will, so long as they don't bring harm to others in the process. As for children with disabilities, unless the child asks to be allowed to die, I think we should love the child regardless of their disabilities.

Am I missing anything?

[Huathe]

Twyrch,

I really did not take your comment as a joke, it was the flat out honest truth in it that made me chuckle. Sometimes one may find a little humor in some right-out truthful statements. And yes, Angelique is right. Sometimes people are strange.

I do not try to push my beliefs on anyone but when a religion or belief system is part of your druidic practices it shows in you. It is no different as a Christian than as a pagan. Christianity is part of me as druidry has became part of me. And it will show in my posts and point-of-view. I am not here to " look down upon " or persecute anyone. If that was true I would not be among the druids. I would be far outnumbered!

I agree, let's get back on topic.

[katie bridgewater]

2 events in my life have made me temper my theoretical opinions on euthanasia:

12 years ago, my family (my mum, and my 2 brothers and me) were told by my father's neurological consultant that my father would not recover from his vegetative-state coma and we should therefore come to a decision on how long we would prolong his life before withdrawing food (he was being kept alive by a naso-gastric feed tube, although his respiratory system was not in need of support). We decided how long we would wait and feed him, and began plans for his funeral. My father came round from his coma some months later and is still alive, although with some brain damage (short term memory loss) to this day.

Last December, I was present when my nephew's life support machine was switched off while my sister held her little son in her arms.


Until you have been in the position of having to make this choice on behalf of someone, I do not believe anyone can really know what they would decide to do. All the theorising becomes nothing when you hold someone's life in your hands. Even knowing what they would have wanted if they could tell you is called into question. If someone is compos mentis enough to take their own life, then so be it, but I would not wish the responsibility on anyone else to make the choice for me. I would prefer my relatives to let me live on in a state of dementia, pain or coma for as long as their conscience requires rather than facilitate my death, if it would cause them any pain or guilt. And I would be very, very wary of euthanasia, given that my father got up from his coma, pulled out his feeding tube and demanded a proper breakfast one day.