Veganism for environment

[poeticoxana]

There is a topic on vegetarianism in Druid Living.

Here I would just like to point out environmental advantages of going vegan. More details on The Vegan Society's website:

http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/environment.aspx

I have been vegan for 4 and a half years, and I never looked back. Vegan food is delicious, healthy and widely available in the UK, and especially the Northern America, with new companies and shops always springing up.

Vegan diet requires less land, less water. It eliminates waste off farmlands that pollute our rivers and the ocean. It gives people in the Majority World to grow food for themselves, rather than to feed cattle that is exported to the Minority World.

And - just think of it - all the grazing lands can be turned into forests! Yoo-hoo!

[DJ Droood]

Vegan diet requires less land, less water. It eliminates waste off farmlands that pollute our rivers and the ocean. It gives people in the Majority World to grow food for themselves, rather than to feed cattle that is exported to the Minority World.

And - just think of it - all the grazing lands can be turned into forests! Yoo-hoo!

Good for you...I eat eggs and dairy, but I appreciate your argument....I was recently in a rather remote corner of the map, and there was simply nothing on the menu at the local grub hole that was vegetarian, and I hadn't the foresight to pack my own, so I ended up having muskox burgers and caribou stew two days in a row...they were pretty good, I must admit, and locally hunted (I don't think they factory-farm muskox). I don't think I have the discipline to be vegan, though, at this point.

Here is a wide-ranging board discussion on vegetarianism. Most OBODies on the board, mirroring society at large, seem to be quite aggressively against it...might as well call yourself a "socialist"!

[mark the compost elf]

Been Vegan for about a year now, must admit i feel great - largely since the dairy went, my system doesn't break as often

Good health reasons to go Vegan too.

But at the end of the day, each to thier own.

[Ade Sundog]

DJ : Most OBODies on the board, mirroring society at large, seem to be quite aggressively against it...

Just a quick bit of research shows where the priorities of most of the members of this board lie -

Thread about haircare - 8605 views , 177 replies

Thread about helping Wolves - 277 views , 2 replies

[Karl]

I'm going to hypocritically give my support for this. I'm in the process of looking at parts of my life in which I want to make changes, and food is a major part of this. Finance, time and ease of access play a major role in our diets, as well as what we are comfortable with; many people eat the same diet as they were brought up with and cook the same recipes they know without looking into new and potentially unliked foods.

My parents eat meat with their main meal every day, because that is how they were brought up. As children my grandparents ate meat once a week, and lived mostly on 'great big chunks of bread with loads of jam' the rest of the time. Presumably as meat became cheaper and more easily available it increased in their diet. But how much of it do we need and how much is habit?

Judging by my understanding of veganism and vegetarianism a well balanced diet will ensure you are healthy and receiving the things you need, probably more so than someone living on turkey twizlers.

Then there is the envvironmental angle, am I really important enough to warrant a frozen chicken being flown twice round the world before it hits my plate? Especially when there's a field of free range ones just over the hill!

Deeper still I ask how I am prepared to eat the stuff if I wouldn't be prepared to kill it myself? Maybe I would, I'd like to try sometime.

Overall my meat consumption has reduced lately, which makes me feel happier, although the lure of the bacon sandwich sometimes prevails!

I am interested in finding out more about the rastafarian 'Ital' diet, although not invested much time so far in looking. I wonder if any members of this forum have tried it and their thoughts thereon.


EDIT
And I'm committed to using natural haircare products!

[Corwen]

DJ : Most OBODies on the board, mirroring society at large, seem to be quite aggressively against it...

Just a quick bit of research shows where the priorities of most of the members of this board lie -

Thread about haircare - 8605 views , 177 replies

Thread about helping Wolves - 277 views , 2 replies

Seems an odd comment Ade, everyone has hair (somewhere on their body) while wolves are extinct in most of Europe and hardly a feature of day to day life. I find it positive that Druids are able to discuss how to live without using potentially toxic and certainly environmentally destructive hair products!

Veganism and vegetarianism have often been discussed here but those threads tend to end in very heated arguments, much like the threads about whether people who call themselves Druids should fly around the world or be in the military. Perhaps long time residents on this board shy away from such topics these days, in case they arouse responses like yours above, I know I do.

Personally I don't drink milk and eat very little dairy. I do eat wild game, shot for pest control purposes, this stance whilst environmentally friendly has in the past elicited vitriolic attacks from certain people (looking at you DJ)- attacks which bearing in mind what he has said on this thread appeared to be totally hypocritical. Anyway thats enough, I just can't be arsed any more to be honest, this board is too full of trolls and people who are simply stirrers for sensible discussion.

[DJ Droood]

Anyway thats enough, I just can't be arsed any more to be honest, this board is too full of trolls and people who are simply stirrers for sensible discussion.

Did someone just wake up from his nap?

[Bracken]

Welcome to the forum, poeticoxana.

Tod? We're practically neighbours.

[poeticoxana]

Thank you all for replying to the post.

I can only guess that people who oppose veganism for environment are not aware of all the arguments.

Pamela Rice runs a very insightful podcast "Hard News Vegan", which can be found on i-tunes. She is the author of "101 reasons why I am vegetarian", which is available for free here:

http://www.vivavegie.org/vv101/index.html

I'll just give one quote:

"America’s farms generate 1.37 billion tons of livestock waste every year, which equates to 5 tons for every American."

Druids speak of their connection to nature and venerate trees, and seek healing from plants. What about animals? Are they somehow excluded from "nature"? Even if they are, in some Druids' view, raising animals for food still poisons earth, air, and water - the three sacred elements.

Bluntly speaking, cows fart - thus polluting atmosphere. They poop - thus polluting waters. They dies of diseases or shortcuts - and so have to be buried in earth, or burned - again, polluting earth and air. The conditions of factory farming means that animals contract diseases, some of them epidemic, some of them fatal to humans. Some of them get transferred to plants - the sacred plants.

Eating factory produced beef means contributing to the destruction of the Amazon rain forests - which are the guardians of the earth's weather and rainfall.

Each Druid should see clearly that with every meat morsel she puts in her mouth, more greenhouse gas has been released into the air, more manure (loaded with harmful substances) has flown into the water, more cesspools and bodies of dead animals have polluted the earth, and the fire had to deal with the carcasses of the animals and I'm sure it has other better things to do.

Finally, I do understand it is a touchy topic - in the wider society as well as in the Druid community. I do understand sentimental links. These can be dealt with, I assure. Only recently I made a vegan feast for New Year, veganising all my favourite dishes that my Mom used to cook for New year in my Soviet childhood. Even aspic - I used mock Chinese tinned meat and agar instead of gelatine!

But as in the wider society, so in the Druidic movement, we do need to talk about this issue - amiably, of course, and listening to each other. And we do have to make choices. I do not shy away.

And what's wring with discussing difficult issues anyway? Is any spiritual path easy? Or are we juts prepared to enjoy the nice aspects of it: performing beautiful rituals, singing nice songs, getting altered states of consciousness - but then when it's time to make a meaningful choice that will have an affect on the physical plane - it's suddenly too much for us?

[DJ Droood]

And what's wring with discussing difficult issues anyway? Is any spiritual path easy? Or are we juts prepared to enjoy the nice aspects of it: performing beautiful rituals, singing nice songs, getting altered states of consciousness - but then when it's time to make a meaningful choice that will have an affect on the physical plane - it's suddenly too much for us?

I think it becomes touchy because people become "locked in" to a certain lifestyle, and it becomes difficult to make wholesale changes, and it is human nature to then make justifications and rationalizations...people don't want to feel bad/guilty...they aren't going to, and they aren't going to let people bully them, so sometimes conflict arises....there are always self-rightous gits around...and I'm afraid vegans have a bit of a reputation (certainly not saying that is the case with this discussion, but I'm sure you realize this)...environmentalists, religious people, political people (team sports people!)...anyone with a strongly held ideology can be a bit preachy, and it can become old and boring and even offensive very fast to someone not on the same wave-length, or the same degree of intellectual/spiritual/ethical development.

I've been interested in vegetarianism and animal welfare most of my adult life...I married young (for love, not ideology) and my interest in meatless eating grew, but my wife's did not, and raising our children meatless was never "on the table" (pardon the pun)...I'm on to a new wife now, and the kids are feeding themselves, so I am able to indulge my culinary interests more, and my partner now is more than willing to play along....I'm not at the vegan point yet (or a "raw foodist", as some of my most radical epicurean friends are)...but I enjoy learning about how we feed ourselves, where our food comes from, 100 miles diets, and that sort of thing, and trying to incorporate good ideas (as I judge them) into my life as much as I can....(I just googled Karl's Rastafarian 'Ital' diet and will explore that further) I've learned the most from quiet, sincere people who live by example and allow me into their world...not the brash one's who beat others over the head with their elevated wisdom...again, this is all real-life stuff...message boards are for polemicists and fantasists.

[Merlyn]

Ahhh the pesky topics of what we eat..
Damn the big mac, just eat the fries.

I would have to question the facts a bit, after all we farm a heck of a lot of wheat and corn in the US. It's sadly true the cows are in competition for the corn with the gas eating cars now. That and the idea it takes a great deal more water to feed a meat eater....??

I do agree that we lack a lot of diversity eating domesticated animals. Then in almost the same breath, damn the deer as it seems to be in the road! We have so much wild game running around, I have to wonder why people don't eat it? Instead of eating the 20 or so wild deer for free, people go right to the store and pay$$ for antibodic laden beef.. Just odd when one thinks about it..

We have zoning regulations that insist we have five acres for one horse, cow or what ever.. Chickens don't seem to rate this kind of grand scale.

All that and the environment aside, truth is people in general just do not eat enough veggies..or drink enough water. I am not sure how this all started, but the diet in general is kind of all year long and unhealthy. Not sure if honey is..veggi, but I love the stuff in the winter and fall, and it keeps the flu away. I rather like eating "seasonal".

I know that's not either meat or vegan, and might just not fit into anyone's idea here or there. It keeps my immune system fit, and frankly keeps me in much better health.
Having such a choice all the time I guess most people forget the way of the land, and for me that is what works.

In the early spring I love fish, all summer I love fruit, in the fall veggies, and in the winter .... beer and good roast...

I am what I am,

Cheers,

[Lily]

There' not just vegan versus "factory meat laden diet". There's a middle path eating meat now and then, consciously, organic, local, and lots of organics incl. eggs and dairy in between.

did you know Tofu has hardly the better ecologic footprint than chicken, what with the processing, transport and storage?

[Kima]

I second Lily in this. It's not as if being non-vegan means over-indulging in factory farm meat. I do all I can to avoid factory farm meat and only buy organic or at the very least free-range meat and dairy. This makes these products more expensive which ensures I don't buy more than I need. I like the

Seasonal
Local
Organic
Whole

food acronym. I make sure that any food I buy is at least one of these, but when in doubt I take local and seasonal (except for meat and eggs, where other concerns take over). The reason why I have never considered going vegan is that it would be impossible to eat mostly locally produced, seasonal foods. Depending on where you live this may be different but I assure you that there isn't much growing in the winter in Switzerland - unless, that is, you want to encourage heating-generated greenhouse production. I would encourage anyone who thinks it's a better option to go vegan, but not doing so myself does not mean that I am thoughtless about the way I eat. It's a conscious and deliberate effort I make to think in terms of bioregions.

Also, you have to remember that everyone cannot afford a vegan (or indeed a SLOW) diet. It tends to be a middle-class choice.

[Lily]

Hey Kima,

what's bad about a winter's long meal plan of cabbage, carrots and brussel sprouts grown here in OUR soil ?
Kidding! I agree with you - eating local, that would be about it...add some potatoes and grains/legumes.... add apples but only until they are mushy or rotten

[NovaStar]

Druids speak of their connection to nature and venerate trees, and seek healing from plants. What about animals? Are they somehow excluded from "nature"? Even if they are, in some Druids' view, raising animals for food still poisons earth, air, and water - the three sacred elements...

...Each Druid should see clearly that with every meat morsel she puts in her mouth, more greenhouse gas has been released into the air, more manure (loaded with harmful substances) has flown into the water, more cesspools and bodies of dead animals have polluted the earth, and the fire had to deal with the carcasses of the animals and I'm sure it has other better things to do...

...But as in the wider society, so in the Druidic movement, we do need to talk about this issue - amiably, of course, and listening to each other. And we do have to make choices. I do not shy away.

I think that's the point- it's a choice that we all have to make for ourselves. Yes we should all be aware of the issues but I personally read your post as 'preaching', which instinctively makes me back away and feel hostility. I can only guess that's why many threads end up in flames.

There is a difference between posting information so people can make their own decisions based on their own values and beliefs, and saying 'each Druid should...'

I second Lily in this. It's not as if being non-vegan means over-indulging in factory farm meat. I do all I can to avoid factory farm meat and only buy organic or at the very least free-range meat and dairy. This makes these products more expensive which ensures I don't buy more than I need. I like the

Seasonal
Local
Organic
Whole

food acronym. I make sure that any food I buy is at least one of these, but when in doubt I take local and seasonal (except for meat and eggs, where other concerns take over). The reason why I have never considered going vegan is that it would be impossible to eat mostly locally produced, seasonal foods. Depending on where you live this may be different but I assure you that there isn't much growing in the winter in Switzerland - unless, that is, you want to encourage heating-generated greenhouse production. I would encourage anyone who thinks it's a better option to go vegan, but not doing so myself does not mean that I am thoughtless about the way I eat. It's a conscious and deliberate effort I make to think in terms of bioregions.

Also, you have to remember that everyone cannot afford a vegan (or indeed a SLOW) diet. It tends to be a middle-class choice.

I largely align with Kima and Lily on this - the SLOW food movement is my own philosophy (I hold a Postgraduate diploma in sustainable agriculture). I enjoy meat but am aware of the costs, so minimise the consequences by buying seasonally, locally, organically and whole where feasible. I grow many of my own vegetables, keep my own chickens for eggs and buy organic meat. (If we had the space, we'd also have chickens for meat as well).

I personally feel it would be more realistic for people to adopt the SLOW philosophy than going fully vegan (at least initially) - and if more people did, that would probably have a greater impact than a few people going vegan or vegetarian.

[DJ Droood]

You can buy local tofu...or make your own! It is more like a wierd science experiment than cooking, but it is quite easy...soybeans and epsom salts (or some other coagulant)...fun to do with kids! (and what kid doesn't loooove tofu)

[mark the compost elf]

Overall, I think that the world would benefit more from people who thought about thier food from every angle. If someone lives in a remote area with limited trading opprtunites (no tofu access), or is happy with the idea of eating another creature after they have considered that, then so be it.

As a vegan, i veiw my diet and my lifestyle, in all ways, as a path not to be walked in a militant way, but in an enlightening one - largely for me, but also for those around me. The more people are aware of a fact, a situation, a belief, then the more they are likely to adapt it to thier lifestyle if they know themselves. AND ifit is possible for them.

The world will never be a wholly vegan planet, but a world where people think before acting and saying, respect before killing and honour that which sustains them (be it plant or otherwise) is a wolrd i would want to see. While i don't condone the eating of meat, i have many thoughtful and loving friends and family that do. While i do not see this as something to approve of, i don't see it as a negative point about a person if they are aware of the consequences of thier actions and are able to justify them to thierselves.

My Father hunts, largely rabbits and eats them, my mother uses their skins and buryies the remains with honour. Again, i do not condone the act of killing sentient beings for food, but i am glad that they do this rather than buying meat. while a moment removes the freedom of life from a wild animal, a lifetime of captivity remove it from a domestic animal.Although i don't doubt that well cared for animals have a happy and fufilling life, before the trip to the slaughter house.

From a purely environmental point of view, eating less meat is a good thing, it fits more with the natural diet of our species, but in somecase 'livestock' rearing is more environmentally friendly than importing foriegn grains, especially where those animals are not grain fed, but crop an otherwise unusable peice of land (rocky and hilly = bad for farming normally). That coupled with vastly reduced meat is the most envirnmentally friendly way forward.

From a spiritual point of veiw, not eating meat leads me to feel more magic in the world, to show more compassion and to find more peace, passion and power within myself and others. I am not making this statement for all vegans, purely for me.

Again each to thier own, what is the point in heated arguments if the heat only serves to temper the baldes of the fight? Why forge resistance when you can explore and ask with just enough heat to keep you comfortable?

[Merlyn]

Food for thought,
Deer meat is very lean, as the deer store fat in a very different way than beef. We choose to raise cattle, and frankly it is possibly one of the worst kinds of meat to eat.
To make that even more of a problem, the fast food chains serve it in mass quantity and the convenience provides opportunity for too many to eat poorly.

If all that isn't enough, the domestication of beef and regulation of it forces very bad things on the rancher, making large doses of antibiotics necessary and this passes on to us causing problems for our own immune system. We then go on to the environmental impacts, adding fuel to the fire, and all of this goes for just about all domestic animals.

Locavore, it's a way to better health, as we see another problem in how unregulated foods can and have caused widespread problems with contamination.
The convenience of city and suburban life have as much of an adverse environmental affect. This causes a food chain situation that needs all kinds of refrigeration, packaging, transportation and energy used by grocery stores. Hardly from the field to the table.

Then the overpopulation issues, gerrymandering of crops and depletion of soil to feed the masses..

It is no simple matter..

[DJ Droood]

Food for thought,
Deer meat is very lean, as the deer store fat in a very different way than beef.

The problem with any kind of wild game is it is fine if you live in a remote area, or for the relatively small number of "hobby hunters", but it isn't a food that could service a modern population....even rural. (not for long, anyway)

[Lily]

Locavore, it's a way to better health, as we see another problem in how unregulated foods can and have caused widespread problems with contamination.

Hm.... I feel I don't understand your sentence, maybe you lost a thought while writing it. Anyway, yes, locavore is good, but did you hear about efforts in the US to ban direct sale of unpasteurized Milk on the farm precisely because of the threat of contamination?
Nothing I really fear, we used to have direct from the farm as a kid, such cases must be really rare (and when bought at the supermarket, if you wait long enough, many products can infect you - and no-one can be blamed.... except you for storing them wrong...)

The convenience of city and suburban life have as much of an adverse environmental affect. This causes a food chain situation that needs all kinds of refrigeration, packaging, transportation and energy ....

I SO should have bought that magazine yesterday, on nature&environment... Headline article: city life is MORE eco than country.... I could imagine because the individual commutes less, walks or rides the bike to the supermarket, and flats use less land than individual homes....

It is no simple matter..

can't say it is, 'cause it ain't