Hmmm....

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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DaRC » 17 Jan 2012, 15:11

DJ Droood wrote:But seriously, though, who came up with the"8 Fold Year"? I'm fairly sure from my readings that it didn't exist in ancient times, at least not as a cohesive cycle, but is a modern melding of ancient celebrations with perhaps putting more emphasis on the solstices and equinoxes than they did in the old days. Most all modern pagans and druids of different theological and a-theological stripes follow it in some way...was it Gardner, Nuinn, someone else?


This is from an old response of mine (so I have nuance changes) ...
The way I heard it is that Ross Nichols (Druid Chief) and Gerald Gardner (Wicca Chief) were friends/acquaintances. They developed the wheel of the year from Northern European customs. Particularly those described by Fraser etc....

In England/Scotland/Wales & Cornwall (gotta keep the Kernewak's happy ;-) there was a merging of the Celtic British culture with the Anglo-Saxon/Norse culture.

The Celts seem to have celebrated a more lunar / animal cycle where Samhuin was bringing the animals down from the Summer pasture, Imbolc is for lambing/calving, Beltaine - moving livestock to the Summer pasture, Lughnasadh is trading the livestock.
They also had the concept of a day beginning at dusk which equates to Samhuin in the year.

The Anglo-Saxon festivals had a solar / plant cycle where Yule is the low point in the cycle - fertilising the fields. Vernal Equinox / Ostara for sowing, Summer Solstice / Lammas is hoping for a good harvest and then the Autumnal Equinox / Harvest home is the celebration (hopefully ;-) for the end of the harvest.
Maybe this concept is why we have midnight as the start of the day.

In the villages of their (Nichols/Gardner) time the local festivals would have been probably very similar to those of my childhood:
Christmas - well known,
Candlemas - lighting of the Candles also I seem to remember it was often when children were introduced to the church,
Easter - we all know,
Mayday - usually a day of pranks and fun. Our village used to have a 'pram race' where teams of men (dressed as women) from each of the 8 pubs would push a full grown man (dressed as a baby) round the 8 different pubs, each team member downing a pint at each pub.
The winner got a cup and each team was sponsored for charity.
There would also be Morris men/Maypole dancing.
These traditions are more sporadic now than they were 30 years ago.
Summer Solstice & Lughnasadh - the Village fete & /County fair. Between these two festivals the villages would have their different fete's and there would be the local Area show for the Livestock and networking amongst the farming community.
The Village Fete was the highpoint of competition amongst the village people for amateur gardeners, jam makers, artists etc.... For kids it was the one time in the year when the Travelling Fair would visit.
Harvest home - at Church a celebration of the harvest with Corn Dolly making & leaving of the fruits at the alter.
Fireworks Night - effigies of the infamous Guy Fawkes would be set alight. Halloween didn't exist in southern English villages at all until a few years after E.T.
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 17 Jan 2012, 16:56

Good insights DaRC,
From those seeds came the OBOD as we know it now and further / the way Philip developed the course. It however has fallen short many times, in the expectations of we who have gone through the OBOD course in becoming what we might have expected an "order" to be. It is also the case in many other Druid orders, and I can fully see why some people look at what druidism is now (From Emma or Philip and others) and say "what"???? 8-)

Tuning oneself to the wheel of the year is beneficial, the 8 fold year and the mind body relationship is indeed a very good thing. Calling it "druidry" is another.....
Forming the OBOD way from the mythos, cannot then exempt itself from real accounts, be they from one source or another. In this I can agree.

Once we become a "druid" graduate, are we what we expect? want? or even anything really?
We then have to ask ourselves "Did we know what we wanted before we began?" Were we able to?
I think that is an individual situation, but "Looking in form the outside" I have to understand why people ask questions like we see here.

To that end I say: "Druidism still has a long way to go" and what neo-druidry is today is perhaps infant to what it needs to become. And I have no answer now as to what that should be. I have seen a lot of answers, but not one which I feel is resonating, positively right or even having a foundation .. yet.
I keep my mind open, and have shifted from what I learned in the OBOD, more often than not, to what I was given early on as "the ole ways". I do also in this same breath have to say what is happening in neo-druidry, is positive.

Now... off to work with me :whistle:
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Dathi » 17 Jan 2012, 17:27

Greetings,

This has been a most interesting thread, and I have wanted to engage more actively with it. But time has been short and I've not gotten round to researching a detailed position. So, just some "top of the head" reactions.

I've always been a bit puzzled by the disparaging comments frequently made about (Celtic) Reconstructionists. Maybe I'm a bit of a reconstructionist myself, but an important part of my Druidry has been to reach back as far as possible to find details / insights / inspiration from ancient lore. The oft repeated comment of "The Druids left no written records" is patent BS as far as I can see things. Furthermore I am often baffled when the aul Romans are credited with having written all we know about the Druids. Here I ref this as but one example: "Recorded here is every surviving word written about the Druids by writers of classical antiquity...."
http://www.anglamarke.com/the_druids

Maybe it's my own understanding that is faulty ("Classical antiquity"), but in both old and ancient Celtic tracts (and me being most familiar with the Irish ones), there are reams and reams of Druid lore. These range across medical, legal, magical, ritual, poetic / Bardic, botanical, esoteric, astronomical and every other kind of lore. The books in the RIA (especially the Medieval manuscripts linked here http://www.ria.ie/library/special-collections.aspx ) many other collections, and the electronic projects of CELT http://www.ucc.ie/celt/ and ISOS http://www.isos.dias.ie/english/index.html are chock-a-block full of plausable Druid (or at least magical / spiritual) lore and practice.

And whereas, I don't dispute that most of these were written in "Christian" scriptoriums, it is clear that much of what has been captured is a direct feed from an esoteric past.

By using a time-lining process, it can be seen that multiple linkages to a distinctly Druidic body of knowledge exists. Over the years there have been several eminent Celtic / Irish scholars on DHP who have shared their deep and wide knowledge on these writings. Sadly they are not to be seen here much or at all recently. In some cases, having given up in frustration. A pity, because we are poorer for their absence.

Now, I'm no scholar, but a tenet of my Druidry has been a constant process of questing. I like what is said somewhere in early an early Bardic grade gwers about Druidry being part of a golden strand of inspiration stretching back in time. And for that reason, the search must go on. And with regard to the ERO quote. Well OK, modern Druidry may not be anchored by scientific or historical fact, but it certainly should be inspired and informed by such.


Til later...

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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 17 Jan 2012, 18:05

Thanks for the links Dathi :shake:
A better and wider understanding of druidism outside of the doors of the orders is indeed the wisdom needed by all Drui.
The end of any grade or course of learning is just the beginning in life itself. And yes, we should understand what any one set of gwers holds is but a drop in the bucket to all we can do for ourselves and Druidism as a whole.

(If my eyes ever see anything contrary in any text of learning, or my ears hear same, I then discount the read or argument for any one way, as contrary to druidism as a whole.)
Willing to listen, learn and love it as life itself. Human as I am :innocent: :oops:

I'm not going to say that any one way is best. No more than I would be delusional about religion. What I will say is there is more common ground in both reconstruction and neo-druidry than not. Be it that this is a very difficult thing to converse about especially when belief in one or the other crosses in discussion. I find that both directions can benifit from the insights of the other, and in my own path I find constructing my own opion requires an open mind.

Before taking the OBOD course I did a bit of research. I noted that most very successful people in life (not money) have gone through some kind of spiritual learning. Knowing my shortcomings and my own needs, feeling the druid way was in harmony with me in all ways, and finding a good result was the majority in OBOD, I elected to do it, do it as best I could and had no preconceptions of becoming something I am not. I look at druidism as a part of my life that helps me communicate, understand and move in harmony with and between nature and humanity. I feel the OBOD course did achieve this goal.

Now... I have more goals! :o
All the better, and reconstructionist druidry is of great interest to me at this point.
Not sure I understand it very well yet.. :thinking:
So on I go again, into the wilds and with a willing heart.
Merlyn /|\
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ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Aemilius » 17 Jan 2012, 20:12

Hello Explorer....


Explorer "I guess it also depends which stream of modern druidry you look at."

Yes of course.

Explorer "Here in OBOD we are all trained through a long-distance course, which is per definition not oral, nobody can shout that loud."

Oh yes they can. The interactive technology required for the complete restoration (and dramatic expansion) of an oral tradition has apparently existed for many years. For various reasons though people seem to have chosen to resist, ignore or avoid considering it's implementation on a grand scale, or any scale.

Explorer "BTW, an interesting read about the effects of the written word on oral culture is 'spell of the sensuous' by David Abrams."

I think the book by David Abrams contains many very valuable and insightful observations, all eloquently relayed. That said, reading between the lines, he seems plagued by what could only be called a case of misplaced concreteness. In other words, he endlessly makes reference throughout to what we, as human beings, can and cannot feel, can and cannot see, can and can not experience, what the world is and what it is not, etc. So, an interesting read? Yes, very much agree, with the caveat that it is presented from the point of view of a self limiting and relatively finite frame of reference.

Explorer "There is a lot more to 'oral' than just telling a story over a campfire."

You have a gift for understatement Explorer.... I count myself very lucky to have had competent face to face guidance from a very early age provided by my mother, a lifelong Druidess, to start me on my path.

Explorer "Our whole way of thinking, perceiving reality and being a society, has been changed drastically when we started to solidify our thoughts on paper."

I would have to agree with you on that, and I think I must have intuitively recognized that early on. I mentioned somewhere that until recently I had not written anything for any reason, excepting the filling out of job applications, legal and medical forms etc. in over a quarter of a century (actually closer to thirty-four years). Two friends of mine, one a painter and the other a musician, though not Druids, share my lack of interest in writing as opposed to face to face communication and we all agree it has been beneficial. Not saying here that everyone should stop writing, just that it worked for me.

Explorer "It is like going from hunter-gatherer to agriculture. There is no way we can go back into that 'oral' mindset as modern westerners."

Do I detect a little more misplaced concreteness here Explorer? I'm not sure about the hunter-gatherer analogy, because I'll be going back to that "oral mindset" immediately upon finishing this post. I don't believe it's out of reach for anyone.

Explorer "One of the underlying principles of modern 'druidry' is seeking for truth, understanding and knowledge, and combine that with meaning, love and honour (and some more). Scientific facts are part of knowledge and truth, just like personal experience is another part of knowledge and truth. Denying science goes against truth, just like denying personal experience goes against truth."

I like that....

Explorer "I like Emma a lot. I've worked with her and I find her inspiring and passionate. But I also think that she sometimes looks with only one eye, like everybody does who refuses to combine scientific knowledge with spiritual meaning to find more 'truth'. I think that it takes two eyes to see depth."

Oh I didn't mean to attack her belief. It just seemed like such a ridiculous thing to say, even in view of the scant evidence we have about the old Druids.

Explorer "Like I said earlier, I don't think there is a strong link between ancient druids and modern druids.

You don't? Well, my impression is that OBOD (among others) seems to rely on and cite a lot of the old writings as foundational when it suits them, and then cavalierly dismisses their importance if it gets in their way. So yes, I would agree there is no strong connection between modern Druids and the ancient Druids, and there probably never will be as long as people continue to mix Druidry, Paganism and Wicca into what appears to me as some sort of spiritual omelet.

Explorer "I think we have to look at the here and now, and a bit at the future, instead conjuring up the ancient dead too much."

Good idea, looking at the here and now.... as far as conjuring up the ancient dead goes though, from my point of view there aren't any, they've all *reincarnated and are here among us, some knowingly, some not.

Strength to you Explorer.... Emile



*AD 350 - Ammianus Marcellinus

"....and with grand contempt for mortal lot they professed the immortality of the soul."

AD 60 - Lucan

"And it is you who say that the shades of the dead seek not the silent land of Erebus and the pale halls of Pluto; rather, you tell us that the same spirit has a body again elsewhere, and that death, if what you sing is true, is but the mid-point of long life."

AD 50 - Pomponius Mela

"One of their dogmas has come to common knowledge, namely, that souls are eternal and that there is another life in the infernal regions...."

8 BC - Diodorus Siculus

"The Pythagorean doctrine prevails among them, teaching that the souls of men are immortal and live again for a fixed number of years inhabited in another body."

50 BC - Julius Caesar

"A lesson which they take particular pains to inculcate is that the soul does not perish, but after death passes from one body to another...."
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Aemilius » 17 Jan 2012, 20:56

Thanks Dathi.... I'm doing the best I can to assemble all the information available, so I hope the links you provided turn out to contain additional good information! I'm a little skeptical though because if it was as reliable and accurate as you say, why would it have been ignored by the academic community all this time? Emile
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 17 Jan 2012, 21:13

DaRC wrote:
DJ Droood wrote:But seriously, though, who came up with the"8 Fold Year"? I'm fairly sure from my readings that it didn't exist in ancient times, at least not as a cohesive cycle, but is a modern melding of ancient celebrations with perhaps putting more emphasis on the solstices and equinoxes than they did in the old days. Most all modern pagans and druids of different theological and a-theological stripes follow it in some way...was it Gardner, Nuinn, someone else?


This is from an old response of mine (so I have nuance changes) ...
The way I heard it is that Ross Nichols (Druid Chief) and Gerald Gardner (Wicca Chief) were friends/acquaintances. They developed the wheel of the year from Northern European customs. Particularly those described by Fraser etc.....


I missed this earlier...thanks DaRc! So are there any pagan historians out there that can trace back to where Gardner and or Nuinn first published what we now know as the 8 "sabbats", or when the term "8 Fold Year" was first used? Was it in 'The Golden Bough'? I have a dusty copy hidden somewhere....
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 17 Jan 2012, 22:20

Oh yes they can. The interactive technology required for the complete restoration (and dramatic expansion) of an oral tradition has apparently existed for many years. For various reasons though people seem to have chosen to resist, ignore or avoid considering it's implementation on a grand scale, or any scale.


Good point.
An oral tradition could exist today no matter the distance. Heck, my son uses it just to converse with his girlfriend and I imagine it is effective in just that..

Thanks Aemilius for working this subject in the way you do. I see a lot of edits, and in a positive light showing an effort for as clear communication as possible.
I imagine the reasons the Oral tradition isn't used are several. However there are as many solutions.

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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 17 Jan 2012, 23:03

Merlyn wrote:
Oh yes they can. The interactive technology required for the complete restoration (and dramatic expansion) of an oral tradition has apparently existed for many years. For various reasons though people seem to have chosen to resist, ignore or avoid considering it's implementation on a grand scale, or any scale.


Good point.
An oral tradition could exist today no matter the distance. Heck, my son uses it just to converse with his girlfriend and I imagine it is effective in just that..


So how do you differentiate between audio/visual technology and a tradition? I can get on skype and tell Nico about a dream I had last night, or an intense experience I had with a tree, but is that a tradition, or is it just communication? Is there a difference? Would it have to be a really good dream, with lots of cultural meaning, and be worth repeating over and over again through the generations to become an oral tradition?

Aemilius gave an example of his mother, a Druidess, passing on information orally, and without knowing specifics, perhaps it is oral druid wisdom going back into the depths of time...perhaps this is common in the UK...I've heard others say "my father was a druid" or "I come from many generations of druids", so there might be a truly occult system of druid knowledge that has survived.

I certainly have an oral family tradition..stories and so forth, but I wouldn't call it a druid tradition, although I suppose I could, in the sense that everything under the sun could be called "druidry", if thats what we want.

A couple of examples of non-written tradition I can think of is the passing on of folk songs between musicians, and jokes...they seem to live a life of their own...they are short, easy to remember and fun to share, and can last generations (as anyone who has heard the same groaner, ad nauseum, can attest.)

So are there other examples of this oral branch of druidry that ERO and many others speak of? I can see why the holder of that that knowledge would not want to make it profane by writing it down, so maybe it is simply alluded to by those in the know, and the rest of us have a sort of made up version. Is Damh's podcast part of an oral tradition, or would it have to survive and be repeated for X amount of years to become traditional? We speak of "Christmas traditions", and many of those only go back 50 or 60 years or less (watching 'It's a Wonderful Life') so maybe something can become a tradition in relatively short order. Can something be both recorded and oral, or does it need to be memorized and repeated, again, like a song or joke?
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 17 Jan 2012, 23:33

Hi DJ,
The expression and life given in the songs of the Bard, express feelings, convey much more than just the words could ever express.
I can agree in that: much would still be lost using skype. There is a realm in personal communication that would be lost. Heck, how would you smell the dusty old druid eh? :wink:
We forget that how we smell (hormones) is a very real part of communication, as example.

On the flip side.. Imagine Philip doing a live gwersi with real time interaction.

Then there is the more personal interaction with people who live in a community, family or real grove that would never be there..

None the less, it would be better than just the pages of a booklet, and a great deal of frustration, misunderstanding and such would not happen. And as you mention, the "tradition' of Oral druidry could shape itself into something it is definitely not right now. If we had some real lessons on how to personally communicate in the oral tradition, one on one, and understood the subtle ways it might be that much more profound, better learned... Just the tone of voice speaks volumes.. The CD's are a part of the course now, and one small step in that direction.

Lots to think on.
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Jan 2012, 00:28

Merlyn wrote:Heck, how would you smell the dusty old druid eh? :wink:
We forget that how we smell (hormones) is a very real part of communication, as example.


Yes! I am a big believer in the power of pheromones..."believer" in the sense that I have no real knowlege or evidence...just a gut feeling. I think you need to be within smelling distance of a person to get a real understanding of them. There are lots of modes of communication...body language, for instance...that need human contact to work...skype and messageboards and facebook are lame facsimiles of real life interactions...they aren't bad, but they aren't a substitute to checking out the cut of someone's jib. I would recon that your best buddy online might be a total turn-off IRL, and someone that pizzes you right off in a board post might be your best friend...good reason not to take this stuff *too seriously". :love:
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 18 Jan 2012, 01:46

Never too serious, any real druid must have a good sense of humor (someone told me that early on :old: )
Then.... there are the accounts of many who have been in abusive situations, scammed and so forth, by "mentors". (Thus the one of many reasons our tutor system is how it is done by distance and thus, due respect.)

This however isn't reason not to have a more contusive real time "classroom" Oral tradition. And I do so love the Bards telling the tales and myth at the Celtic festivals. With the proper insights and effort, precautions and all, the Oral tradition could take on a much bigger role in druidry....however who foots the bill$$? :thinking:

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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 18 Jan 2012, 15:46

So much for staggering off topic :oops:
The branches of any discussion are both interesting and distracting.

So.... what exactly is reconstructionist druidry? Is it "authentic" druidry? A way of life? A spirituality?
In working with the questions and answers, getting a grasp on this is something I feel would better the discussion.

So.... I look at what I find.
One example:
http://www.whiteoakdruids.org/aboutwhiteoak.cfm
Order of WhiteOak - Statement of Belief
The Order of the White Oak is a modern Druidic order which bases its beliefs and practices on what we know of the original faith and practices of the pagan Celts. We use historical research and poetic inspiration to build a viable tradition. Our source material for this research includes such names as Miranda Green, Alwyn and Brinley Rees, and Barry Cunliffe.
Based on our studies of works by those and other authors, we believe that the ancient Druids were philosophers, lawyers, healers, judges, lorekeepers, and poets as well as ritual leaders and teachers. Thus, we strive to achieve similar skills in these modern times.
We also draw upon the writings of the Celts, such as the Audacht Morainn and the Brehon Laws. From those, we learn that the Celts respected the virtues of justice, impartiality, conscientiousness, firmness, generosity, hospitality, honor, stability, beneficence, capability, honesty, eloquence, steadiness, truth in judgment, and mercy.
We seek to uphold these virtues in our daily lives. Some of us have found value in studying other Indo-European traditions in the search for understanding, such as the Vedic texts of the Hindus, while others turn more inward in the quest to fill the gaps in the records.
We do not believe we are inheritors of the priesthood of Atlantis. We do not believe that Druidry was the sole province of men, as our studies have shown us that women were Druids both in the insular areas as well as on the continent. We do not derive our traditions from medieval romances about Arthur and Merlin. We are not Wiccans or Witches of any sort, as witchcraft and Druidry have been separate though coexistent paths throughout their mutual histories. We do not believe we are the only true Druids.
We do not seek to control all Celtic Pagans as a dogmatic priesthood. We do not even hold all of our members to one interpretation of the ways of the Celts, as not even they worshipped identically to each other across the multitude of tribes and centuries.


So in essence of this example a large amount of what neo-druidry is...isn't.
The spirituality of druidry in this sense would then not exist directly, only indirectly. And the direct spiritual context of practice would then be from elsewhere, perhaps the Celts themselves, and this reconstructionist direction might be like the Masons, a frame work of life conduct in a tradition of the original drui.

Spiritual aspirations from the mythos and lore would not include things like King Arthur or any of the later romantic fiction. It digs deeper into the more tribal and relevant lore and myth of the actual time the drui existed in ancient times. Wicca and the 8 fold year then would be a non-issue, far from thought.

This of course narrows things down a bit... a lot.. however is a more authentic and sober reality, void of the embellished tales of later times.

http://www.whiteoakdruids.org/ritualswh ... wsItemID=8
As in the example above, This is not to say reconstructionist druidry would be void of tree lore, ritual or the rich lessons, spiritual involvement that druidism is.

Another "definition" : http://www.netplaces.com/celtic-wisdom/ ... ganism.htm
Celtic Reconstructionism (CR) is a relatively recent brand of Celtic neopaganism. It is similar in many ways to neodruidry, in that both attempt to achieve some semblance of authenticity in their spiritual practices. Unlike druidry, however, the reconstructionists tend to cast a wider net, with a broader interest in Celtic culture as a whole. Reconstructionists also tend to follow a less rigid initiatory system — where druid orders tend to emphasize the classical ideals of druid priesthood with its lengthy training, hierarchical systems, and emphasis on philosophy, Celtic paganism looks to be more accessible, open, and culturally aware.

CRs also tend to appear more noticeably pagan, with emphasis on ritual, altered states, visionary practices, and polytheistic worship. Many Reconstructionist groups focus on a particular culture, be it Irish, Scottish, or Gallic, and some groups restrict membership to applicants who share a particular Celtic ethnic background. Unlike Wicca and related pagan faiths, Celtic Reconstructionists tend to avoid eclecticism, or the borrowing of elements from other religions or cultures
.


So ..... From this view, the closer one can get to an authentic way of teaching this lore.. the better.
And thus speaking to the Oral tradition as Emma did and make a statement far from what historical record indicates is frustrating if it goes directly opposite of historical fact.

Back to my own view, if you will...
I do find reconstructionist druidism as I understand it as a more accurate definition to how I live my life. I do use the ideals of reconstructionist druidry as a guideline to how I deal with choices, make judgments, aspire in art, tell my own life stories and strive to inspire others to have the morals and good ecological sense that the druid way aspires to.

I then seek to find my own elemental spiritual ways into the context of druidism. These however are not what defines druidry.
They are rather my own tribal ways, as are the teachings of tree lore, which however find a closer relevance to the druid way in general.

I do see what Emma said as making sense in the context she said it in. I also see what Philip has done as a positive "way", I also clearly see the reconstructionist view and why.
And frankly I think I like it.. :thinking:

What Neo-druidry has done and is doing, could go farther, as I do recall it was a much more Christian-friendly way early on, and has trended further Pagan in what I see recently.
The OBOD is obviously invested in the course, and recently revised this course in it's entirety, showing change, including more like the CD's to at least give a closer context to what an Oral tradition "sounded like". A CD however cannot give the smell of the fireside, the glint in the eye or the interaction people have in person. The distance of a tutor causes a disconnect, and the lack of sponsorship in active roles that the real druids did is totally non-existent. In a lot of ways neo-druidry lacks commitment in society and makes little or no effort by design, to actively engage our world today. We can of course become "anchors of light" and do all of these things for ourselves, on our own terms. The OBOD as an order however, cannot or does not.

I see reconstructionist druidism or; Celtic reconstructionism, as the next logical step in progression for Drui who wish to step from one stone in the river..to the next.

In light,
:merlyn:
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ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Jan 2012, 16:41

Merlyn wrote:I see reconstructionist druidism or; Celtic reconstructionism, as the next logical step in progression for Drui who wish to step from one stone in the river..to the next.


To each his/her own, I guess....I personally find "reconstructionism" backwards looking, puritanical and a Celtic history enthusiast's hobby dressed up as spirituality...with nowhere to go but upstream...but that is just *my* feelings about it...I don't mind being dismissed as New Agey...I'm too Zen Druidist to let it bother me :wink: ...I don't mean to be insulting, although I know from years of experience that merely stating my opinion that I don't think "Celtic Reponstructionism" is all that will get someone's kilt tied in a knot...I've yet to stumble across the passages allowing for a sense of humour in the Brehon. (well... not that I've actually read it, to be fair)

I am, however, as pointed out elsewhere, a total hypocrite because I appreciate good scholarship and am repelled by people passing of their fantasies and wishful thinking as "Ancient Druidry"...I just don't squeeze much spiritual juice out of trying to shoehorn Iron Age mores (be they Christian or Celtic)into the modern world ...again, just one Atlantean Druids opinion..butter your bannock any way you want. :innocent:
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 18 Jan 2012, 17:41

understood DJ,
I guess I am looking in form the outside at myself, and really trying to see if I actually am "pure OBOD" and I'm not anymore.
I began wandering with the dragons away, and further away as time went on. I don't prescribe to OBOD druidry as a plug-in what you want thing. It is a defined way, unless of course, as allowed, one decides to color the paint by numbers path our own way.

I can't prescribe to the psychology-spirit kind of thinking and make mundane the natural spirit world as it does. Seems all colors loose their meaning when the thud of psychology enters the room. I do agree that the far right side, total history and science only, isn't it either. Wandering with pentagrams in the far left does me no good just as much.

I see the more practical application of druidism in Celtic reconstruction as a positive thing, replacing the self-help stigma with actual application to betterment in all things.
It might take another beer or two to figure it all out, the dragons are thirsty as well. Might just be "Dragonism" and not really fit into the left & right of druidism at all...

PenDragon as I guess I am… :dragon:
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Jan 2012, 18:13

Merlyn wrote:understood DJ,
I guess I am looking in form the outside at myself, and really trying to see if I actually am "pure OBOD" and I'm not anymore.


I, for one, am willing to accept your dragons, and the well-studied reconstructionists, and the Zens and the fairy friends, the-multi-hyphened-druids, ERO's oral druids, the pure OBODies, and the minimalist atheist communist druids and all our other brothers and sisters as Seekers of Awen...let's all be friends. :shake:
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Merlyn » 18 Jan 2012, 18:43

Total agreement there :shake:
I of course live with a wife who is native-American spirit and also does Reiki... She accepts that I am a Druid mostly because I accept all to the fireside. :warm: :D
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ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Red Raven » 18 Jan 2012, 19:31

Being tagged with the term "reconstructionist" and being a member of Brython who have been tagged with the same term, I find reconstructionist to be inaccurate for my own personal circumstances. I consider "Reconnectionist" to be far more accurate. To reconnect with a period of history so far back and with the scant evidence we have, means that to a degree we are going to have to rely a good deal on UPG. However, I find UPG to be better informed if I use the results of the modern scientific age.
For example, my own connections are fuelled by the Gods of Britain and are achieved through the medium of the land. For this to provide anything like any sort of satisfactory connection, I have to place my understanding of what I am trying to achieve using the latest facts, for example, results of forensic analysis of any remains recently found in the environment that I am trying to interact with.
If, for example, the analysis of the people of the area showed tooth wear indicative of a lot of grain ingestion, then I would consider the offering of a small amount of grain into the environment to be an appropriate offering if I was trying to interact with that environment and the entities present therein.
So I endeavour to use the latest information to better inform the methods I use to better interact with my environment.

RR
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby Dathi » 18 Jan 2012, 19:47

Uh, how did this thread begin, and uhh, what is it actually about?

It's a cracker of a thread and "pure OBOD" as far as I can make out. Take some twists and turns, mix a bit of scholarship with fantasy, have a few vigorous disputes (in the politest possible manner), chuck in a few side-bar discussions (Wheel of the Year, Pheromones, CR, Learning Technologies, The Meaning of Life, Beer & Dragons etc.), and all end up violently agreeing with each other (as long as it feels right!). Perfect!

Now just imagine how much craic this would be sitting here :warm: with this :gulp:

CFN,

Dathi

PS: Reading that blurb from the White Oak fellows, I guess I'm more CR than I even knew myself.
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Re: Hmmm....

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Jan 2012, 19:56

Dathi wrote:Uh, how did this thread begin, and uhh, what is it actually about?


It is unlike a DHP thread to go off-track like this...I will take responsibility...I have the attention span of a hyperactive 4 year old...sorry OP! Carry on. :fly:
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