The Full Moon....

[Lily]

The artifiical light is of only a few limited frequencies, like the sodium streetlamps only emit light at the frequency of sodium. So, all the frequencies that are in the moonlight, but not in our artificial light, do indeed reach us. Just as strongly as if we were out in the countryside.

good to know. So Emilius was right in saying they don't cancel each other out. Which I never claimed.

But, and I think this is the flaw in the logic... we are not telescopes that are able to distinguish one frequency from the other.
Even when all those different wavelenghts of light reach us, and even enter our eyes, it will be the strongest visible light wavelenghts that will trigger our optical nerves and the asociated parts of the brain. So even when all of the moonlight will hit us at full force, we won't be able to notice it when there are brighter lights.

Since the rods and cones in our eyes are triggered by a breadth of wavelengths, it could be that most of the light from the moon is covered up by light pollution ....
when we are blinded, yes, that's true, then we won't even see the moon.

but it doesn't have to be so....
because usually are able to distinguish - we can usually make out the moon even rather close to a streetlamp. that's because the light is focused onto our retina and our receptors are distributed across it and we get an image.

But consider the theory that light from a certain part of the spectrum has a physiological effect e.g. on mental health - that might not be wired through the visual cortex at all. The pineal gland is also affected by light. and it's wired from the retina, but not through the visual cortex.
So - we won't consciously distinguish between the different wavelengths, but we will detect those photons from the moon at their wavelength - unless there is light much stronger at the same wavelength that triggers the very same receptors already.

now if the theory above was true, any effect of moonlight on human behaviour would have to be nixed if there is bad weather during the period of the full moon...



all things that would have to be tested, and statistically controlled for - using enough participants, long enough observation period, diaries etc regarding their symptoms, and weather charts to control for cloud cover.... a huge study.....

[treegod]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1316181/?tool=pubmed

Full-moon nights are 12 times brighter (under a clear sky) than at first or last quarter, and therefore it is likely that people stayed up later and slept less than the rest of the time. Even partial sleep deprivation over the course of a single night can induce mania, and it is plausible that sleep disturbance during a full moon may function as a positive feedback once a manic episode has begun in a predisposed individual. Perhaps this lies at the origin of the association between madness and the full moon.

Oh good, someone has suggested the possibility.

Thanks for the link Lily.

I remember some people that lived near Manchester, and they were so used to light shining in through their window that when they slept in a place with no light at all they couldn't get much sleep. I slept in the same house and it had the opposite effect on me, a very good night's sleep. Different people, different effects. For statistical science individuality sucks, lol.

[treegod]

all things that would have to be tested, and statistically controlled for - using enough participants, long enough observation period, diaries etc regarding their symptoms, and weather charts to control for cloud cover.... a huge study.....

News just in: a study has shown that there is no connection between lunar effects and human behaviour, except one: the scientists doing the study were found to become lunatics after doing the study, which had so many things to take into account (weather, diet, personality, residence, nationality, languages spoken, number of kids, personality of kids, quality of relationships, size of veg patch, ingrowing toenails, last time they used the toilet and whether it was no. 1 or 2, etc.) that in the end they were indeed driven mad. Often, during the full moon, these "lunatics" are often heard saying "Oh no, that that again, take it away, I just can't handle the statistics any more..." before foaming at the mouth and attacking the nearest unfortunate.

Other studies of the effects of studying the effects/non-effects of the moon on human behaviour have commenced, but with extreme caution...

[Lily]

the scientists doing the study were found to become lunatics after doing the study, which had so many things to take into account ...that in the end they were indeed driven mad. ...

Other studies of the effects of studying the effects/non-effects of the moon on human behaviour have commenced, but with extreme caution...

Good one!

did ANYONE say science was easy?

[DaRC]

Thanks all for an interesting discussion - I have 2 questions on this Lunar topic:

1) Why is there such verbal evidence (from Police & Nurses) that a full moon on a weekend is not the time to be working nights?
The apocryphal stories are that people in general are a wilder on those nights and that A&E will be significantly more busy. As most of this would be in an urban environment full of light-pollution would moonlight alone be enough to have an effect?

2) Is there a lunar affect on blood flow?
This is more the basis of a type of conspiracy theory - the argument postulates that on a waxing moon blood flow will be less than on a waning moon (I think it's that way round). The conspiracy theory is that studies that prove this have been suppressed by 'the authorities' on the basis that it would cause a panic and people wouldn't want operations etc... until the moon was in a waxing phase.

[DJ Droood]

Thanks all for an interesting discussion - I have 2 questions on this Lunar topic:

1) Why is there such verbal evidence (from Police & Nurses) that a full moon on a weekend is not the time to be working nights?
The apocryphal stories are that people in general are a wilder on those nights and that A&E will be significantly more busy. As most of this would be in an urban environment full of light-pollution would moonlight alone be enough to have an effect?
.

Confirmation bias? Are full moon nights busier? That could be graphed by a highschool student for a science project and proven quite easly...I would think b&es would be busier on dark nights.

[Lily]

confirmation bias, yes, this paper specifically calls it the Transylvanian effect (I already linked it above)
http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp- ... -owens.pdf
another writeup now that Old Aunt Wiki is back online
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect
even if statistics do find a significant difference of say 1 (!!) % - how on EARTH (insert other habitable planet of choice, provided it has a satellite) could a casual observer even notice that - enough to make it a "well-known fact"? I don't buy it.

and oh, look, it has even been studied whether the female cycle matches with the lunar one, and it does not even in the Dogon people who still live under quite primitive conditions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_ ... d_the_moon

[Red Raven]

Speaking personally, I would have thought a body the size the moon orbiting in close proximity to the Earth, would have a strong effect on the electro-magnetic field of the Earth, possibly even warping it slightly, which I would think would be a stronger candidate for interfering with behavioural patterns. I thus also wonder if the effect on the electro-magnetic field is different when not in contact with direct sunlight.
Not being of an academic background however, I may not be in the best person to qualify this at this moment in time.

RR

[Aemilius]

Hello all....

I mentioned earlier a study I came across (I'm still trying to find it, and will post it if/when I do) as having been the original impetus in this line of reasoning with regard to the light of the Full Moon, but became distracted and never explained why it was I was looking into schizophrenia in the first place, so I'd like to expand on that....

For about the last twenty years now I've been taking care of my now fifty-eight year old clinically diagnosed schizophrenic eldest brother who, when he moved in, was so severely affected by this condition he had become socially dysfunctional in the extreme, engaging in bizarre unpredictable behaviour, unable or unwilling to speak for days at a time. What caused me to initially make a connection with the Full Moon was the spontaneous outbursts of yelling at all times of the day and night that occured on only three particular days each month like clockwork - the day before, the day of, and the day after the Full Moon. This went on for about ten years which established a definite recognizable pattern (in my opinion). Under my supervision as his legal guardian over the last twenty years, he has returned almost completely to us, and all without any medication. He has been productive, responsible and can hold down a job, and he pulls his weight around the place too. He is inquisitive (likes calculus), creative (likes painting) and has over all, been happy and well adjusted now for about the last eight years. So, I think you can see why I might seem mildly dismissive of all the statistical analysis and studies being cited.

Hello Red Raven (nice to meet you)....

Red Raven "Speaking personally, I would have thought a body the size the moon orbiting in close proximity to the Earth, would have a strong effect on the electro-magnetic field of the Earth, possibly even warping it slightly, which I would think would be a stronger candidate for interfering with behavioural patterns. I thus also wonder if the effect on the electro-magnetic field is different when not in contact with direct sunlight."

That's a great observation! The Moon has no significant magnetic field itself, but it is composed of about three or four percent iron (open to correction), which is ferromagnetic and may have some measurable influence on the Earths magnetosphere. I'm thinking though that the kind of effect this would produce, though cyclic in nature, would be each twenty-four hours, not thirty days. Sunlight, or the lack of it, will not affect or change this.

Red Raven "Not being of an academic background however, I may not be in the best person to qualify this at this moment in time."

Don't underrate yourself.... Emile

[Karl]

I could well imagine the Moon's presence affecting the magnetic field, however I can't see how this would be affected by the phase of the Moon. The Moon is no closer or further if it is full or not (as I understand), and I don't see how the amount of reflected light could change the magnetic field to any noticable degree.

Although, if a New Moon puts Earth in line between Sun and Moon, and both heavenly bodies affect the magnetic field in a similar way as gravity affects tides, I think I have just logicked myself around in a little circle.

So has anyone got any numbers?

[Lily]

all I can do is repeat myself... before looking for explanations, look for evidence of an effect... and that isn't there, really, at least not at nearly the magnitude that popular myth has it....

[Aemilius]

Hello Karl (nice to meet you)....

Karl "I could well imagine the Moon's presence affecting the magnetic field, however I can't see how this would be affected by the phase of the Moon."

The Moons presence exerts a gravitational influence on the Earth, but since it has no real magnetic field and it is only three or four percent iron, I would think any distortion of the Earths magnetosphere due to its presence would be very, very small considering its (the Moons) distance from the Earth.

Karl "The Moon is no closer or further if it is full or not (as I understand), and I don't see how the amount of reflected light could change the magnetic field to any noticable degree."

Right, light does not appreciably distort magnetic fields.

Karl "Although, if a New Moon puts Earth in line between Sun and Moon, and both heavenly bodies affect the magnetic field in a similar way as gravity affects tides, I think I have just logicked myself around in a little circle."

But both heavenly bodies do not affect the Earths magnetosphere in a similar way. Again, the Moon doesn't (appreciably) distort the Earths magnetosphere at all. The Sun, however, dramatically distorts the Earths magnetosphere at all times, not through the action of light or gravity though, but through the action of the "solar wind" composed of material ejected from the surface of the Sun called "solar ejecta".

Emile

[Explorer]

Speaking personally, I would have thought a body the size the moon orbiting in close proximity to the Earth, would have a strong effect on the electro-magnetic field of the Earth, possibly even warping it slightly, which I would think would be a stronger candidate for interfering with behavioural patterns. I thus also wonder if the effect on the electro-magnetic field is different when not in contact with direct sunlight.
Not being of an academic background however, I may not be in the best person to qualify this at this moment in time.

No effect at all. The electro-magnetic field of the Moon is very, very weak and doesn't influence Earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field_of_the_Moon

And we're not very good magnets anyway.

[Explorer]

I could well imagine the Moon's presence affecting the magnetic field, however I can't see how this would be affected by the phase of the Moon. The Moon is no closer or further if it is full or not (as I understand), and I don't see how the amount of reflected light could change the magnetic field to any noticable degree.

Although, if a New Moon puts Earth in line between Sun and Moon, and both heavenly bodies affect the magnetic field in a similar way as gravity affects tides, I think I have just logicked myself around in a little circle.

So has anyone got any numbers?

Interestingly enough, the magnetic field of the moon IS affected by the phase of the Moon and it may cause a temporary 'atmosphere' of dust on the dark side.
(I didn't know that, just found out on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field_of_the_Moon)

The sun causes the electromagnetic field of the EARTH to warp, and that creates a sort of magnetic tail aimed away from the sun.
When the Moon passes through that tail (which happens during the full moon, when she faces the sun) the lunar surface gets a bit static.

But what happens on the moon is much to weak to influence the earth.

[Explorer]

Karl "The Moon is no closer or further if it is full or not (as I understand), and I don't see how the amount of reflected light could change the magnetic field to any noticable degree."

In fact, the Moon-Earth distance varies considerably, but that cycle is not similar to the cycle of the phases: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

"The distance between the Moon and the Earth varies from around 356,400 km to 406,700 km at the extreme perigees (closest) and apogees (farthest). On 19 March 2011, it was closer to the Earth while at full phase than it has been since 1993.[89] Reported as a "super moon", this closest point coincides within an hour of a full moon, and it thus appeared 30 percent brighter, and 14 percent larger than when at its greatest distance."

[Aemilius]

Bravo Explorer!

Explorer "Interestingly enough, the magnetic field of the moon IS affected by the phase of the Moon and it may cause a temporary 'atmosphere' of dust on the dark side."

I hate to correct an astronomer, but if I understand this correctly (and I think I do), the observed effects noted in the Wikipedia article DO NOT indicate any involvement of the moons magnetic field at all (open to correction if you would like to quote from the article), but rather a negative static electric charge developed at the lunar surface as a result of the Earths charged plasma magnetotail sweeping across the dayside of the lunar surface. The potential difference created by this interaction, mentioned as being in the neighborhood of 800 Volts, then naturally arises between the day side and the night side of the Moon as a direct result of ultraviolet radiation from the Sun striking the day side, which keeps the build-up of negative electrostatic charge on the day side in check, and allows a build-up of negative electrostatic charge to accumulate on the night side where the dust cloud is assumed to originate.

Explorer "But what happens on the moon is much to weak to influence the earth."

I'm not ready to concede that. The turbulent charged plasma sheet of the Earths magnetotail sweeping across the lunar surface and interacting with the reflected light from the sun may produce heretofore unknown and dynamic novel effects.

That said, this is fascinating! You've given me a whole new area to investigate, great stuff!

Emile

[Explorer]

I hate to correct an astronomer, but if I understand this correctly (and I think I do), the observed effects noted in the Wikipedia article DO NOT indicate any involvement of the moons magnetic field at all (open to correction if you would like to quote from the article), but rather a negative static electric charge developed at the lunar surface as a result of the Earths charged plasma magnetotail sweeping across the dayside of the lunar surface.

You're absolutely right, I stand corrected.
(BTW, I'm not an astronomer, but a software engineer working on the telescope software).

Explorer "But what happens on the moon is much to weak to influence the earth."

I'm not ready to concede that. The turbulent plasma sheet of the Earths magnetotail interacting with the reflected light from the sun may produce heretofore unknown and dynamic novel effects.

Well... think about the dimensions and dynamic in 3D.

The solar wind blasting the earth is like standing in a storm. Our (very long) hair blowing in that storm is our magnetotail.
When we face the sun, we face that storm.
When we turn our collective backs to the sun (midnight) the wind comes from behind, and our hair (magnetotail) flows down wind into the darkness of space.
At the full moon, the moon is 'downwind' from us, but our hair is long enough to reach it.

The moon, however, has a very weak magnetosphere, very short hair so to speak, almost bald. And even if she had hair as long as us, it would still be blowing away from us, not towards us (at least at the full moon). So, magnetic effects from the Moon should occur at the new moon, when she is between the Sun and the Earth, up wind, when her (very weak) magnetotail is aimed towards us.

[Red Raven]

Hello Red Raven (nice to meet you)....

Greetings Aemilius

Red Raven "Not being of an academic background however, I may not be in the best person to qualify this at this moment in time."

Don't underrate yourself.... Emile

Thank you for the kind sentiment but the fact that I chose not to embark on an academic course after full time education hasn't left me with an inferiority complex, as people who know me can confirm

RR

[Aemilius]

I understand what you mean Explorer (I have very long hair), but that's not quite what I had in mind. My original post entertained the possibilty that the altered visible spectrum of light reflected back to the surface of the Earth from the Full Moon was somehow able to affect certain people sensitive to it. Now, there is the additional aspect you have brought up of turbulent charged plasma possibly interacting with the already altered reflected visible spectrum, creating an even more novel form of illumination in the process.

[Lily]

The solar wind blasting the earth is like standing in a storm. Our (very long) hair blowing in that storm is our magnetotail.
When we face the sun, we face that storm.
When we turn our collective backs to the sun (midnight) the wind comes from behind, and our hair (magnetotail) flows down wind into the darkness of space.
At the full moon, the moon is 'downwind' from us, but our hair is long enough to reach it.

The moon, however, has a very weak magnetosphere, very short hair so to speak, almost bald. And even if she had hair as long as us, it would still be blowing away from us, not towards us (at least at the full moon). So, magnetic effects from the Moon should occur at the new moon, when she is between the Sun and the Earth, up wind, when her (very weak) magnetotail is aimed towards us.

well you could say we are affected positively at the new moon, i.e. loonies and crooks are quiet and women ovulate, in order to menstruate at the full moon. but they don't. we still only have one small study indicating a possible phenomenon in a very limited population, compared to a great popular myth.