A Question....

[Aemilius]

DJDrood "Well, if your style of Druidry...the ancient quotes and the like...gives coherency to your spiritual practices, then pursue it..I'm just saying that style of druidry makes it incoherent for me."

Well there we are then.

DJDrood "I like Druid..it has a nice ring to it...and I doubt if the Ancient dudes called themselves that, so we aren't infringing any copyrights. I would venture to say, however, that questing, experimental, experiential New Age Druids, from my experience, have more of a right (or, to be charitable, as much right) to call themselves "Druid", and stay faithful to the spirit of the word, than what I've read in the online FAQs about the "reconstructionist path". I would think, after browsing their websites and e-lists, that they may be more comfortable calling themselves "Celtic History Enthusiasts", or "Live Action Role Players" (LARPers). Perhaps there is an Ancient Gaelic word they could use? Anyway, at the end of the day, they are just labels we assign to ourselves or others, so have fun with them, and if *you* are comfortable affixing "druid" to what you do, that is all that matters.

Now that's extremely interesting.... Are you lumping me in with the Celtic Reconstructionists? I'm asking you this for a reason.... Emile

[DJ Droood]

Now that's extremely interesting.... Are you lumping me in with the Celtic Reconstructionists? I'm asking you this for a reason.... Emile

Well, that is the surface impression I got from a few on-line posts..I certainly wouldn't lump anyone in with anything based on some DHP content! I think we are all multi-faceted, complex and interesting individuals, and I look forward to learning more about you....but it is getting very near my bedtime..see you Sunday!

[Aemilius]

Greetings DJDrood....

Well, you must have wondered why I found your comment extremely interesting.

It's just that a couple of years back when I first went on line (after a couple of drinks), I made a ridiculous overzealous remark which led to a rather "spirited" conversation with an Elder in the Order of White Oak Celtic Reconstructionist Druids, the President of that organization's Board, Druid Wildcrafter, Ovate at OBOD, member of AODA (and friends with half the Grand Grove), licensed Naturopathic Physician, Cell Biologist, Zoologist, Master Herbalist, Primitive Archer and Community Deoghbaire (a title adopted about a month or so after he learned the definition).... I guess that's everything. Anyway, before burying me under a mountain of pseudo freudian diatribe, he labeled me as being a crazy fraud and fluffy New Age monotheistic extreme multi-culturalist!

So now I've got you, DJDrood, a questing, experimental, experiential New Age Druid (whose company I much prefer by the way) labeling me as a Celtic History Enthusiast and Live Action Role Player, and charitably reassuring me I still have the right to call myself a druid, which is precisely how I characterized him!

So, there is high comedy in Druidry after all....

DJDrood "I certainly wouldn't lump anyone in with anything based on some DHP content! I think we are all multi-faceted, complex and interesting individuals, and I look forward to learning more about you...."

Thanks for that, the feeling is mutual.... Emile

[DaRC]

How have the noble Druids come to be found worshipping among the grand stones of a strange monument of unknown origins in the midst of a rotting necropolis?

I think it's all related to the continuum of spirituality, which comes to the knotty issue of who, what & where were the Celts and what was their relationship to the Druids.
Some of the Roman writers suggested that the Druids were based around Britain.
Isn't this strange if Celticism is Hallstadt/La Tene culturally based because wouldn't that suggest the spiritual roots should be around the Danube?

It's also strange that Celtic tribes that invaded Rome and Greece in the 3rd Cent BC, who subsequently settled in Galatia (now modern Turkey), have no mention of Druids (as far as I am aware - but if someone has references that prove it I would be excited). So Celtic can be the people and a culture.
Here I will declare myself as someone who agrees with Cunliffe's idea that what we, nowadays, tend to think of as Celtic culture developed within a group of peoples on the North Western Atlantic coast of Europe. This would be from northern Spain, the west coast of France, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Western England & Scotland.

So is ancient Druidry an integral part of Celtic culture OR a development of the Atlantic Celtic culture?
If ancient Atlantic Celtic culture is different to Hallstadt/La Tene Celtic culture would part of the difference be Druidry?
I am assuming here that Celticism is cultural and not people based.

So could the Atlantic Celtic culture be a syncretism of Celticism, as a wave of ideas migrated from Hallstadt/La Tene, with indigenous culture of the Atlantic Celts?
Would that syncretism of indigenous spiritual thought with an incoming cultural Celtic thought have developed Druidry?
Is Druidry a stepping stone on the continuum of Atlantic Celtic cultural spirituality?

If you answer yes to those questions then it is not impossible that Druids worshipped at Stonehenge. Currently I tend to believe Cunliffe's arguments which would suggest answering yes to those questions.
Irish druidic tales contain many references to their megalithic monuments so why would British druidic tales ignore them?
In this respect, although christianised, I tend to prefer the Irish lore around druidry (which is early medieval) to ancient Roman lore.

Personally, like Lily, once you've connected to this land the megalithic stone circles do resonate for ritual.

[DJ Droood]

So, there is high comedy in Druidry after all....

I should hope so! And the druids who take themselves and their pseudo-Catholic church titles and vestments the most seriously are usually the funniest. I was just being rhetorical in my above post....I don't really have any strong feelings on who should or shouldn't use the term "druid", other than those who say a certain group *shouldn't* use it are usually soft targets for a bit of teasing on messageboards. I hang around here because it is the only on-line place that collects up discussions on many of my interests...Celtic histories, mythology, neolithic cultures, theological and philosophical debate, political discussions, environmentalism and the arts...if pondering these issues, and applying some of your conclusions to your life isn't druidry, well...

My only real quibble with dogmatic druids is they tend to drag their literalism and sense of moral certainty into a refugee for many people trying to escape that stuff...It all seems vaguely fascist and right-wing Americana to me, just dressed in a different cloak...

But now I see I misunderstood you, so

So is ancient Druidry an integral part of Celtic culture OR a development of the Atlantic Celtic culture?

When you say Atlantic Celtic Culture, is there a connection between them and the Atlantic megalith builders? I don't see how there could *not* be a continuum of knowledge and tradition from Neolithic to Celtic cultures, even if the thread is lost.

[Oakapple]

Aemilius, I wonder what image and values the word "Druid" brings to you?

[Merlyn]

Thanks Aemilius, for the link.
I sensed there was a lot more to you then any post here could or most likely will tell.
We are the same age, and have a few more things in common. How you find your ability to heal and help people like your brother is very clear to me now. I don't have the time to fully read your site today, but did read into it for a bit, enough to know well your skills, and the talent your art expresses is wonderful. If you get the time I would gladly share in kind.
Dragons of course are a mark of the adept, to ability to know them, and you have even gone much further.

Any misconception of you being purely "reconstructionist" is now far from my mind. I believe you have a tremendous amount of insight and are perhaps as true to druidism as one could be, possibly blessed with opportunity few have. What little I was blessed with was not enough to have fulfilled a life path as early on as you did. Nevertheless, my advice to what you see here is this:

As early on in life one can begin the druid way, the better. And for the majority it is far into life, and a very big leap of faith. Reversing the harm done, removing the programmed dogma, and making strides in any way to a life like you aspire to is very difficult. The amount of adversity is staggering. And the ways people see and work through all that they must to follow a druid path will take a great deal of care and patience from those like yourself. Myself included, I see and know too well the problems we all face.

Art is perhaps the best healing way, and in light of this, more is understood through art then any written word. Frankly more than any oral lesson just as much.
Of the things I was blessed with was a family tradition of art. Though many of the other rich traditions were stripped away over the centuries, much of it survived from my line in art. In this was my ability to raise my son, drug free, and as I teach him skills now, he has aspired, grown and become a young man which very few would know had to work through autism. And having recognized what high function autism is, I then reconciled how my own life was affected and touched, by what is more misunderstood and has been treated in all the wrong ways, as my own father suffered from it also. His love, my mom, was the one with the talent and skills and love to bring from him the amazing man he was, now passed away five years.

Now, on a lighter note,
I kind of like the "Jimmy Buffet" order of the white parakeet idea. It reminds me of an old time in this order when those of us found a bit of sarcasm as a venting method to say, "let's not ever take druidry so seriously as to not be friends in our path" And of each problem we would create a thread we all contributed to in "The tales of the Foggy Duck Pub".
After-all, our deepest passion for what we call Druidry has little time, as life is short and thus "Life is what you make it".

Looking forward to knowing more of your thoughts,

Now, for a bit of insight into what I do,
See:
http://dragoncircle.30.forumer.com/ (you would be welcome here and your insight into dragons, very much) What you have seen through your mind's eye into the realms is inspiring and how you relate it in your discriptions is a treasure.
And:
www.customcyclestudio.net (My artist trade)

[treegod]

So, in essence, what you all seem to be saying (if I understand correctly) in different ways using different rationales and speculative mental constructions is "I don't need to regard what's been written about the ancient Druids as being in any way significant or applicable to my path since all the information is suspect for one reason or another and no one can prove anything anyway." Would that be a fair assessment?

Hmm, make that "I don't need to regard what's been written about the ancient Druids as being in any way significant or applicable to my path unless it is actually significant or applicable to being a Modern Druid in the 21st century." Even if the information about them wasn't suspect or dubious historically speaking, the relevance of said information could still be suspect in a world which is extremely different.

I derive a lot of inspiration from some ideas and images of the Ancient Druids (whether historically accurate or not) and a certain "archetypal" value, but historically a lot of water has past under the bridge, too much to say that everything written about the Ancient Druids could ever be applicable today. They were pre-Christian, we are (sort of) post-Christian, they are pre-Industrial and we use the Internet etc.

And Modern Druidry has its own history, starting around the 17th century and taking on a varied mulitude of incarnations since then of varying and dubious relationship to the pre-Christian Druidry from which we take our name, if nothing else.

Aemilius, I wonder what image and values the word "Druid" brings to you?

Hmm, yes, I second that

[Merlyn]

oakapple wrote:
Aemilius, I wonder what image and values the word "Druid" brings to you?

Hmm, yes, I second that

Hi Treegod and all,
A lot gets lost in a thread, To this question I suggest having a look

http://www.anglamarke.com/faerie_serpen ... th_dragons

This will answer your question.

Merlyn /|\

[Aemilius]

Merlyn "I don't have the time to fully read your site today, but did read into it for a bit, enough to know well your skills, and the talent your art expresses is wonderful."

I should have been more clear about that site. The only page on it that pertains directly to me is the page "My Path", though we are ideologically alligned. All the paintings (though I'm also an artist) and the writing there were produced by my mother, Guenn Eona Nimue. It's all her work. If/when you look at it again I'm sure that'll become obvious (that's a Self Portrait Photo of her on the home page). She's eighty-five now and like my brother is also under my care.

Merlyn "Art is perhaps the best healing way, and in light of this, more is understood through art then any written word. Frankly more than any oral lesson just as much."

Very much agree with that! To me art is Ritual, Meditation and Healing all rolled into one mindset. Here's one I did called "A TEMPLE". It's about 20X24 inches, all freehand pen and ink (no preliminary pencil sketch), no ruler or measurements (not a straight line in it), and done with a rapidograph drafting pen that draws a line about the width of a human hair using stippling (tiny dots).... and several hundreds of hours....

http://anglamarke.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Images_081.13081031_std.jpg

.... doesn't begin to show all the detail , it's very much like trying to photograph a giant dollar bill (click on the image to enlarge it a bit).

Merlyn "Of the things I was blessed with was a family tradition of art."

That would describe mine equally well.

Merly "Now, on a lighter note,
I kind of like the "Jimmy Buffet" order of the white parakeet idea. It reminds me of an old time in this order when those of us found a bit of sarcasm as a venting method to say, "let's not ever take druidry so seriously as to not be friends in our path" And of each problem we would create a thread we all contributed to in "The tales of the Foggy Duck Pub".
After-all, our deepest passion for what we call Druidry has little time, as life is short and thus "Life is what you make it"."

Words to live by.

Merlyn "Now, for a bit of insight into what I do,
See:
http://dragoncircle.30.forumer.com/ (you would be welcome here and your insight into dragons, very much) What you have seen through your mind's eye into the realms is inspiring and how you relate it in your discriptions is a treasure.
And:
http://www.customcyclestudio.net (My artist trade)"

A lovely post, Merlyn, and I'll definitely take a look.... Emile

[Aemilius]

oakapple "Aemilius, I wonder what image and values the word "Druid" brings to you?"

Hah! Merlyn, I just saw the dragon image link you posted as I was thinking of it myself! I'll answer the "values" portion of the question as soon as I can oakapple, and then, perhaps, you would like to reciprocate with answers of your own to that same question.... Emile

[Red Raven]

Red Raven "I would respectfully suggest that the role of trees (wood) and stone were well established and not in competition as such." [/i]

I'm not certain I understand what you're getting at with that, Red Raven, but if you mean to suggest that because the ancient Druids used both stone and wood for utilitarian purposes that somehow explains why they should wish to worship among a bunch of corpses in the middle of a big circle of stones, it didn't work (open to correction).

Emile

Apologies Emile, I'm guilty of making an assumption that you are aware of my interest in this subject, which, of course, you couldn't be seeing as we've only just met.
I am particulary interested in the development of the Neolithic and have published a website with some work and theorizations on it (with my limited understanding). The recent work on the Orkney islands in the link I provided previously, links well in some aspects to my continuing speculations
It is my opinion that the megaliths in the environment were there before the classical Druids and as such, it is also my opinion that the classical Druids may not have had as fuller understanding of them as is generally thought. In this respect, therefore, I believe that they may have found themselves in a similar position to modern neo-druids, that is no definitive answers.
Therefore, I now also believe that it is more a case of personal interactions in the landscape enabled through these monuments that is the key and as such, I don't believe there can ever be, a *right* way for everyone based a generalized framework. The role of the ancestors appears through most of the information I have sourced, to have been central in the thinking of the construction of these monoliths and far from being just a collection of corpses buried in the landscape, it is my contention that they were and continue to be, active for some in their relationships with the landscape.
At the risk of coming across as somewhat crass and opportunistic with this, especially as I have only just started to frequent this site again after an absence, but in the spirit of providing a better understanding of my viewpoint, the link to my work is here...http://religionofthesoil.com/
Thanks to the mods for allowing this and if it is a problem, please let me know and I'll remove the link.

RR

[DJ Droood]

At the risk of coming across as somewhat crass and opportunistic with this, especially as I have only just started to frequent this site again after an absence, but in the spirit of providing a better understanding of my viewpoint, the link to my work is here...http://religionofthesoil.com/

good stuff! looking forward to reading through this.

[Aemilius]

Hello oakapple and treegod....

oakapple "Aemilius, I wonder what image and values the word "Druid" brings to you?"

I'm not entirely sure how to proceed here, so I'll just approach the answer categorically with examples.

Social values - I started volunteering almost immediately upon dropping out of school at the age of sixteen, beginning at a local nursing home for a couple of months, then moving on to volunteer at the University of Washington Hospital as an assistant Occupational Therapist for a period of about two years (1974-1975). While volunteering there a disabled former District Court Judge suggested I get involved with a program started in 1972 called "Neighborhood Crime Watch" and I took a seat on the Seattle Community Crime Prevention Advisory Commission to then Mayor Wes Uhlman for about a year (1975). After that making a living took precedence, though I continued to periodically volunteer at a local charity called "The Millionaires Club" serving meals to the homeless and dispensing clothing, blankets etc. Unfortunately I don’t have time for any of that anymore.

Education - Like I said, I dropped out of school (I don't recommend that though). While volunteering at the University of Washington Hospital, I received an identification lanyard with no expiration date on it that basically allowed me to go anywhere on campus I wanted to and I made full use of it for about six years, including the Suzzallo Library (philosophy, art history etc.), Science Libraries (Physics, Electrical Engineering etc.) and the Warren G. Magnuson Medical Library. I think I just wanted to learn a little bit about everything instead of learning everything about one thing, if that makes sense.

Family values - I’ve got a full plate here, but it’s the best job in the world.... I already mentioned my older brother who lives with me and I supervise, and I also care for my mother who’s 85 now (for about the last fifteen years). She recently had a mild stroke and I was forced to assume power of attorney in order to overrule the neurologists whose dire prognosis and list of six different medications I disagreed with. It’s been about two months now and she’s fully recovered both her ability to speak and her mobility with no residual disability (all she needs is a walker), all with no medication.

I hope I didn’t go off on a tangent here telling you all this, is it what you meant? I don’t really think of any of this in terms of “this is what a Druid should do”, and I’m sure many others are doing much bigger and better things that aren’t Druids, but it feels right to me and it’s a big part of my path.

Strength to you both.... Emile

[Oakapple]

Thanks for your information Aemilius, but no, thats not what I meant. (The wonders of virtual communication!)
I'll try and be clearer:
When you hear the word "Druid" what image comes to your mind?
After that what values do you suppose that person would hold?
I don't want to give examples for fear of influencing the answer!

And yes, I think this thread is probably more in the "What druidry means to me category"

[DJ Droood]

Social values - I started volunteering<....>Family values - I’ve got a full plate here, but it’s the best job in the world....

When I think of any spiritual path, I think "What is it worth to others? Who is this serving?" I really couldn't care what people "believe" or what dusty books they find important...I like to see if there is some fruit on the tree...and from *my* understanding of Druidry, serving your tribe in some capacity is probably the defining feature...so I salute you as a druid.

[Merlyn]

When you hear the word "Druid" what image comes to your mind?

Hi Oakapple, I like the question, and will take a stab at it.

From the external, visual: we can possibly think of a white robed elder, this more likely from the accounts old and new.
From my mind's eye, it is the circle dragon. This of course is the avatar I use which I crafted some time ago.

The values and virtues of aspired and inspired leadership and that of the artisan, healer and on the list can go, are more often from the disciplines in life than any other desire.
From many cultures, far more than just the Drui, the dragon is the hallmark of truth and trust, often in almost diametric opposition to subjugation, dogma and theocracy.

In essence: for a druid to betray trust and truth is against his/her values and a moral failure. The way of four and the balance between and the weaving of the dragons in the mind and the land are but one in the same.

For us all to bring into light what druidry truly is, will indeed bring more to light in and of ourselves.

A most interesting discussion, amazing insights and links here which bring more to "what druidism is" than a long time of looking, and I see a deeper richer feel for what druidism is here with just these few, then in so many orders, courses or rituals.

Good stuff,
Merlyn

[Aemilius]

Hello oakapple....

I meditated on the questions posed by you for about an hour before drifting off to sleep last night, looking for answers, as I often do.... in my dreams.

In my dream, I am perched high in the branches of an Oak tree. I call out with all my might "Druid!" with those questions in mind.

Some time passes. Then, on the horizon in the distance, a whirlwind appears and begins racing towards me, accelerating and growing larger as it does.

As it gets closer I begin to see suspended within it thousands and thousands of pictures large and small but, try as I may, I cannot see what the pictures are of.

I then begin to hear voices calling out in all the languages of the Earth but , try as I may, I cannot understand what they are saying.

Then, just moments before it appears the whirlwind, now towering above me, is about to reach the Oak tree I'm sitting in it's whirling motion abruptly stops.... and all the pictures instantly drop to the ground and disappear.... and all the voices fall silent.... and I'm at peace.

That is my answer to both of the questions.... Emile

[Oakapple]

What do you feel is the meaning of your dream?

[Aemilius]

Hello oakapple....

oakapple "What do you feel is the meaning of your dream?"

Well, my intuition tells me the Oak tree I'm sitting in is representative of the Path that I'm on.

oakapple "When you hear the word "Druid" what image comes to your mind?"

My inability to pick out or even see what any of the pictures depicted in the dream conveys to me the futility of trying to choose any kind of image (of a person or an object) as being iconic in response to hearing the word "Druid". So, the answer to that would be.... No image comes to mind when I hear the word "Druid".

oakapple "After that what values do you suppose that person would hold?"

The cacophony of unintelligible voices (I feel) would seem to show the folly of trying to elucidate any particular set of values, because with respect to the first question there is no person or thing with which to associate them. So, the answer to that would be.... No particular set of values comes to mind.

The whole thing stopping suddenly before me and disappearing, and the feeling of being at peace that immediately followed (I feel) must then represent the realization of the above.

So there you have it. My answer, though it took a while, is that no particular image or set of values (specific or general) comes to mind.

oakapple "I don't want to give examples for fear of influencing the answer!"

Well, now that I've answered the questions, after you comment on them, and since you needn't worry any longer about influencing my answer, perhaps both you and treegod would like to reciprocate with your own answers to the same questions.

oakapple "And yes, I think this thread is probably more in the "What druidry means to me category."

Could you elaborate on that?

Strength to you oakapple.... Emile