Do You Believe In Magic?

[DJ Droood]

When I had a magic spell done, it was to get justice/revenge on people who broke into my home (and I was confident the spellworking would be more effective than the police working), and sure enough, 6 months later, the authorities accidently apprehended some people that were responsible for a series of break-ins in my neighbourhood. I will gladly chaulk that up to magic.

I don't believe in conformation bias.

Oh sure...the cops did some work and arrested them on thier own some people will believe anything...It was magic, I tell you. The most plausable solution is generally true.

(what a second..do you mean confirmation bias, or are you making a clever pun or something that I don't understand)

[treegod]

I meant confirmation...

[Lily]

I meant confirmation...

DJ also meant "chalk"

[Mountainheart]

I meant confirmation...

DJ also meant "chalk"

Or he was just using old English

[DaRC]

I don't believe in conformation bias.

Sometimes the typoes hold magical truths I can well believe that you are not subject to Peer pressure.

[StephenThomas]

However, I wonder if we aren't all subject to confirmation bias. We believe what we have found to be true.

[DJ Droood]

I meant confirmation...

DJ also meant "chalk"

Or he was just using old English

Old English would be cealc, which I quite like, but not as much as the Latin Calx....Lily, I am surprised you have succumbed to my colourful neighbour's humourous rejection of the letter 'U'....of course, they don't use the metric system either, so I'm not sure what can be done. :sniff:

But I apologize to Treegod...I am the king of typos and my spelling ability, without spell check, is that of a 6th grader.

[DJ Droood]

However, I wonder if we aren't all subject to confirmation bias. We believe what we have found to be true.

I think that is the case for almost everyone, on a wide range of issues...politics/religion, love (especially love)...we believe what we want to believe, reject evidence to the contrary, formulate tangled notions, like 'Intelligent Design' to protect the integrity of our biases. That is why I value rationalism...sometimes our senses can fool us (like when individual pictures of a running horse can be sped up create the illusion of movement), sometimes we imagine things...sometimes people lie to us about their experiences for one reason or another...we all need to fact check and compare our experiences with the experiences of others if we are interested in what the consensus on the nature or reality is. (conformation bias?) If we are comfortable in an isolated bubble of personal bias, we can become subjectivists, and say things like 'My reality is as good as your reality", or "We create our own reality".

[Red Raven]

"Magic" is a somewhat loaded word, as some of the replies here have demonstrated. My own take on the word, is that it is a descriptor for a process or event not yet fully understood.

RR

[treegod]

My own take on the word, is that it is a descriptor for a process or event not yet fully understood.

Well, that just takes the "magic" out of magic. It's a bit too.... "believeable"

[StephenThomas]

The question I have is, does all process have to be understood. Do all events have to have an explanation? Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic. I wonder. If we suddenly had all the answers to life, would life be worth living? My own thought is that it wouldn't. Without mystery, without magic, life becomes a series of one boring moment after another. Just my take, mind you.

[Red Raven]

The question I have is, does all process have to be understood.

I don't believe we will ever be in a position to confirm that we are in that position. Therefore, to me, the question is irrelevent.

Do all events have to have an explanation?

Explanation, no. Reason, yes.

Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic.

Nope, I know the reason why the sun rises and sets each day, for me, doesn't make it any less magical.

I wonder. If we suddenly had all the answers to life, would life be worth living? My own thought is that it wouldn't. Without mystery, without magic, life becomes a series of one boring moment after another. Just my take, mind you.

The magic you refer to here appears to be akin to the wonder a child sees when observing the world around them. You can still understand the processes and keep the child like awe, for example the metamorphasis from catapillar to butterfly. The fact that life exibits immergence is, in itself, a magical thing, especially the myriad of ways this is expressed. Speaking personally, I can see magic all around me. The fact that I understand some of the processes involved does not negate it because my understanding of the processes somehow relegates those experiences. Knowledge, for me, enhances it. And besides, "knowing something" invariably raises more questions which can take the experience beyond initial viewing.

RR

[Lily]

Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic.

Nope, I know the reason why the sun rises and sets each day, for me, doesn't make it any less magical.

.... seems to me like you are equating "magic" with "awe" or "beauty".

did you read the articlel mentioning "NOMA" further down the SkepticalDruid forum?

It defines "non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)" - Stephen J. Gould described these different realms or "magisteria": science and the empirical, religion, art/beauty - the latter of which aren't open to the same methods of inquiry as the natural universe....
Only when religion and beauty claim to be universally true and demand scientific proof do they enter the empirical realm.

[Mountainheart]

Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic.

There are so many day-to-day things which are magical: the greatest piece of magic IMO is why I am not only animated but have thoughts, memories, consciousness etc. Much of 'why' I exist can be understood: but it does not cease to become less magical to me.

[DJ Droood]

Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic.

There are so many day-to-day things which are magical: the greatest piece of magic IMO is why I am not only animated but have thoughts, memories, consciousness etc. Much of 'why' I exist can be understood: but it does not cease to become less magical to me.

Many folks in this thread have eloquently expressed how they use the term "magic" as a synonym for awe, wonder, mystery, the unknown, beauty (not unlike the way the word "god" gets repurposed, stripped of theology, for exactly the same effect.)

Is anyone making an argument that "magic" exists as a separate, unique and deliberate system or process? Is it possible to make a change in the outer world (as opposed to our own "inner" reality of imagination/emotions) by performing a spell or ritual? Even if a magic spell had a sufficient psychological effect on the spell-caster, or the subject of the spell, to cause a real world result...either supporting a person's motivation to achieve a task, or by rattling an opponent's nerves...isn't that still using 'magic' as a synonym for a real, identifiable process?

[Mountainheart]

There are so many day-to-day things which are magical: the greatest piece of magic IMO is why I am not only animated but have thoughts, memories, consciousness etc. Much of 'why' I exist can be understood: but it does not cease to become less magical to me.

Many folks in this thread have eloquently expressed how they use the term "magic" as a synonym for awe, wonder, mystery, the unknown, beauty (not unlike the way the word "god" gets repurposed, stripped of theology, for exactly the same effect.)

Is anyone making an argument that "magic" exists as a separate, unique and deliberate system or process? Is it possible to make a change in the outer world (as opposed to our own "inner" reality of imagination/emotions) by performing a spell or ritual? Even if a magic spell had a sufficient psychological effect on the spell-caster, or the subject of the spell, to cause a real world result...either supporting a person's motivation to achieve a task, or by rattling an opponent's nerves...isn't that still using 'magic' as a synonym for a real, identifiable process?

In my experience physical healing 'in the outer world' can happen by 'magic' as a deliberate act. However, I don't think this is a result of anything supernatural: but some natural process that we are somehow tapping into. I don't believe there is anything 'supernatural' but that there are many extraordinary natural processes which we have yet to understand.

[StephenThomas]

DJ Drood said,

Is anyone making an argument that "magic" exists as a separate, unique and deliberate system or process? Is it possible to make a change in the outer world (as opposed to our own "inner" reality of imagination/emotions) by performing a spell or ritual? Even if a magic spell had a sufficient psychological effect on the spell-caster, or the subject of the spell, to cause a real world result...either supporting a person's motivation to achieve a task, or by rattling an opponent's nerves...isn't that still using 'magic' as a synonym for a real, identifiable process?

My answer, yep. I believe in the supernatural, and I have experienced what I would call changes in the apparent world as a result of magic/prayer/intention. Will I try to persuade you as to its validity? Nope. Nothing I could do or say would do that. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. Let's just agree to disagree!

[DJ Droood]

I believe in the supernatural, and I have experienced what I would call changes in the apparent world as a result of magic/prayer/intention. Will I try to persuade you as to its validity? Nope.

Well, there you go...your thread went full circle, from question asked to question answered. I think our work is done here.

[Red Raven]

Does magic have to be quantified? If so, then does it cease being magic.

Nope, I know the reason why the sun rises and sets each day, for me, doesn't make it any less magical.

.... seems to me like you are equating "magic" with "awe" or "beauty".

No. I may know the processes involved, but I can never be sure as to what I may see because of atmospheric conditions which, one could argue, are as individualistic as we are. So, for me, there is an element of magic involved because although I may think I have a high probability of observing what I think I am about to see, I can never be sure. So I suppose another definition of magic, for me, would be the concept of uncertainty revealed.

did you read the articlel mentioning "NOMA" further down the SkepticalDruid forum?

I'm aware of the NOMA principle anyway, it's not one I neccessarily subscribe to.

It defines "non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)" - Stephen J. Gould described these different realms or "magisteria": science and the empirical, religion, art/beauty - the latter of which aren't open to the same methods of inquiry as the natural universe....
Only when religion and beauty claim to be universally true and demand scientific proof do they enter the empirical realm.

It appears to me to somewhat compartmentalize things to prevent conflict, my own religious outlook cannot be divorced from the natural universe and for me, there is an overlap. But that is just my own personal experience.

RR

[Frog]

I think everyone has beliefs..some are correct, some are incorrect (that the Earth is flat, for instance)...

My dad's bowling green is quite flat, as is my friend's putting green on his golf course.

I think it depends on the extent of your knowledge and what you choose to accept. There is empirical evidence to suggest that the earth is round - and yet when I look out at the horizon from the sea it looks flat. Because I have left this shore and sailed to France and been on a plane I have been able to confirm to myself that the world is round and it's not all made up (say, like some people might believe the moon landings).

For me, the same is true of "Magic". I have yet to see any empirical evidence to say that it does work; and yet, I have asked for things that I would not have expected to receive and after a series of "apparent" coincidences I received the thing I asked for.

So for me, it's not that I do or do not believe in magic; I am open to the possibility that it exists.

Frog